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IBM PPC 970MP A Reality?

GFLPraxis said:
POWER4 processors are really expensive as well. A stripped down POWER5 would make the G6, not a normal POWER5.
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Exactly.

We happen to have a 538 processor IBM SP2 375mhz Power 3 system.
3 32 Processor IBM Regatta's Power 4+ and I'm sure we will probably acquire a Power 5 system later this year.

We also have 1835 Xserves.
60 SGI Origin 3000's
A handful of SGI Altix
and 7 Intel Xeon Clusters
Not to mention a bunch of Vax's
 
fpnc said:
Actually, I'm pretty certain that you are incorrect. The XBox 2 won't use the dual-core 970MP. The last I heard the XBox 2 was going to use a three-core POWER derivative (from IBM). Most people seem to believe that the XBox 2 processor will be more similar to the simplified POWER core that will be used as the master control processor in Sony's and IBM's Cell-based processor (for the Playstation 3). Microsoft decided to use three of these cores, while Sony decided to use one and combine that with eight highly specialized (but simplified) vector processing units. The vector units don't do much more than "crunch" numbers, they aren't general purpose processors or cores.
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~loserman~ is correct in that the XBox 2 *prototypes* and early developers kits are based on a 2 core PPC. There's a MR htread on it. The *production* XBox 2 is rumored to have a 3 core PPC, as you stated.
 
280 days since the last update biznatches.

280 Days since the last PowerMac update. Will it be realeased before, at the same time or after Tiger. :)
 
fpnc said:
Actually, I'm pretty certain that you are incorrect. The XBox 2 won't use the dual-core 970MP. The last I heard the XBox 2 was going to use a three-core POWER derivative (from IBM). Most people seem to believe that the XBox 2 processor will be more similar to the simplified POWER core that will be used as the master control processor in Sony's and IBM's Cell-based processor (for the Playstation 3). Microsoft decided to use three of these cores, while Sony decided to use one and combine that with eight highly specialized (but simplified) vector processing units. The vector units don't do much more than "crunch" numbers, they aren't general purpose processors or cores.
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You are correct in what the rumor mill says about the triple core Chip for the Xbox. I just happen to be one who says I'll believe it when I see it.
Triple cores just dont make sense. IBM as far as i can remember has never made a CPU like that so it just doesnt ring true to me. But of course I could be wrong.

The same rumor mill says that dual cores have been built as prototypes and are currently being used for coding
 
Would be nice if it became a shipping product this year

I dream of a world where pro Macs get double the cores, mice get double the buttons, mid-level Macs get double the VRAM, and the baseline 256 RAM gets doubled to 512, and we all get double the juicy rumors. And it all happens within a month of Tiger. And Tiger ships ahead of schedule by May and not June. And the rivers flow with chocolate and all the world is at peace!
 
nagromme said:
I dream of a world where pro Macs get double the cores, mice get double the buttons, mid-level Macs get double the VRAM, and the baseline 256 RAM gets doubled to 512, and we all get double the juicy rumors. And it all happens within a month of Tiger. And Tiger ships ahead of schedule by May and not June. And the rivers flow with chocolate and all the world is at peace!
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All those doubles are great.

Didn't you forget double the market share?
 
daveL said:
~loserman~ is correct in that the XBox 2 *prototypes* and early developers kits are based on a 2 core PPC. There's a MR htread on it. The *production* XBox 2 is rumored to have a 3 core PPC, as you stated.
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Just because it may have been described as a "2 core PPC" doesn't mean that it has to be a 970MP. Also, as for the MR thread, are you certain that doesn't refer to using the Power Mac G5 as the XBox 2 development kit? The latter was certainly true, but the existing dual Power Mac G5 systems are far from being the same as a dual-core 970MP.

Frankly, there is no way the XBox 2 could use a full-blown, three-core 970MP design. The cost of that chip alone would radically exceed the price of the entire console. Power use and heat generation would also be a problem. As per the recently revealed IBM application note on the 970MP, it's going to be a pretty power hungry and hot chip. Contrast that with the Sony/IBM Cell design which is supposed to use as little power as the best of today's mobile chips. In that case, some have suggested that the single-core POWER derivative that is used in the Cell design might only require 10 to 15 watts and that the eight vector units would add only a few watts per unit. However, a single, dual-core 970MP is rumored to require 50 to 100 watts per processor even at a fairly low clock speed (circa 2 to 2.5GHz). However, the XBox 2 processor is rumored to run at greater than 3GHz.

Can you provide a link to the MR discussion that shows (or even suggests) that the XBox 2 prototypes used a 970MP?
 
fpnc said:
Just because it may have been described as a "2 core PPC" doesn't mean that it has to be a 970MP. Also, as for the MR thread, are you certain that doesn't refer to using the Power Mac G5 as the XBox 2 development kit? The latter was certainly true, but the existing dual Power Mac G5 systems are far from being the same as a dual-core 970MP.

Frankly, there is no way the XBox 2 could use a full-blown, three-core 970MP design. The cost of that chip alone would radically exceed the price of the entire console. Power use and heat generation would also be a problem. As per the recently revealed IBM application note on the 970MP, it's going to be a pretty power hungry and hot chip. Contrast that with the Sony/IBM Cell design which is supposed to use as little power as the best of today's mobile chips. In that case, some have suggested that the single-core POWER derivative that is used in the Cell design might only require 10 to 15 watts and that the eight vector units would add only a few watts per unit. However, a single, dual-core 970MP is rumored to require 50 to 100 watts per processor even at a fairly low clock speed (circa 2 to 2.5GHz). However, the XBox 2 processor is rumored to run at greater than 3GHz.

Can you provide a link to the MR discussion that shows (or even suggests) that the XBox 2 prototypes used a 970MP?
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Aren't rumors great?
It isn't unreasonable to expect that Xbox2 will cost double to manufacture over its sell price and be a loss leader just like the original one was.
Remember that Microsoft took $150 loss on ea Xbox 1 sold.
I fully expect that the same sort of thing will happen with the Xbox 2
 
I love the idea of dual core chips, and even more so the possibility for a quad processor PowerMac. Does any one know if Tiger will support quad processors? 4 G5's or 2 dual core G5's
 
~loserman~ said:
Aren't rumors great?
It isn't unreasonable to expect that Xbox2 will cost double to manufacture over its sell price and be a loss leader just like the original one was.
Remember that Microsoft took $150 loss on ea Xbox 1 sold.
I fully expect that the same sort of thing will happen with the Xbox 2
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There is a big difference between selling a product at below total system cost and selling a product at below the processor cost. One 970MP chip alone might cost upwards of $300 (and that's just for one dual-core processor). Contrast that with the current XBox where its Pentium processor costs next to nothing (currently probably much less than $50). The Pentium processor used in the current XBox also uses only about 20 watts of power.
 
fpnc said:
Can you provide a link to the MR discussion that shows (or even suggests) that the XBox 2 prototypes used a 970MP?
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Well, actually, my post didn't mention the 970MP. I specifically said "2 core PPC". I guess you can take however you like it. It's really not that big a deal.
 
Object-X said:
Wow, Quad Dual Core G5s!! They come in Quads? I'm getting one! They probably won't put quads in a Powermac though :( Sounds like a Xserve thing.
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They could call it the Quadra. :D
 
???

what is the actual benefit of this. Some said reduced cost, but how is two on one chop so much cheaper? doesn't is mostly create problems by increasing heat production in a smaller area. I'd rather have two hot things 4 inches apart, than two hot things 1/4 inch apart. How much cheaper practically is dual core vs dual prosc? (and again, how is it cheaper?)
 
Okay, I just read (or scanned) most of the XBox/PPC thread that daveL MAY have been talking about ( https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/114366/ ) and it seems to say nothing specifically about the 970MP. In fact it seems to confirm everything I was saying in response to loserman's original post.

Specifically, the XBox 2 developer kits are dual Power Mac G5 systems (not dual-core 970MP). And it appears that the specs and rumors that everyone was pushing around for the PowerPC derivative that may be used in the XBox are really a close match to the new two-issue POWER core that will be used in the Sony Playstation 3 (and that is NOT based upon the 970MP).

So, it seems that all my post did was condense the speculation from the XBox/PPC thread and add a new pointer to the POSSIBILITY that the XBox 2 and Sony Playstation 3 will share a similar POWER core (which again is not the 970MP).

Given all of the above, I maintain that loserman's suggestion that the XBox 2 is using the 970MP is completely wrong and daveL probably jumped the gun when he responed that "~loserman~ is correct ..." But, yes, it really is no big deal other than we should probably try to keep our "facts" and/or rumors straight (it does not do any good to try and pass on a distored rumor).
 
in reply to all those doubles post and reply:
Maybee if we're really lucky, Tiger will come on dual discs, and take up twice teh space of any previous OS, as well as being twice as taxing on the hardware!! (crosses his fingers) :p
 
jesus man! why are so many people flipping out about this? we all know it's coming, and it's an IBM doc. If Steve slippe dup and mentioned it on CNBC, that's a quirly little rumor, but come one, we all know this is written in stone. The question is when? And it sounds like this thing's too hot to not be refrigerated, let alone put in anything smaller than the powermac (or powertank, the new MP model).
 
ibilly said:
what is the actual benefit of this. Some said reduced cost, but how is two on one chop so much cheaper? doesn't is mostly create problems by increasing heat production in a smaller area. I'd rather have two hot things 4 inches apart, than two hot things 1/4 inch apart. How much cheaper practically is dual core vs dual prosc? (and again, how is it cheaper?)
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Dual core on a single chip will reduce cost in comparison to the existing dual Power Macs because you only need one processor chip to supply those two execution cores and you can reduce the pin/trace count and motherboard complexity (since the system controller will only need to interface to a single processor).

It's true, however, that a single 970MP will consume more power than a single 970FX (the latter used in the current G5 Power Macs and iMacs). However, that total power will be distributed over a larger area (not smaller) since the chip or die size on the 970MP will be larger than on a single 970FX. The problem with getting heat out of the current G5 has more to do with the power density (or heat density) caused by the relative small area of the 970FX chip. The 970MP shouldn't be any worse, in fact it may be better because it probably uses a more refined process technology than was used on the original 970. But it is also true that a single 970MP will generate more heat than a single 970FX, so the fans in the Power Mac may have to run a little faster to remove that heat (or they will have to improve the cooling system in order to keep the fan noise at its present level). So, a 970MP will generate more heat, but it should be relatively easy to handle.

Now a single 970MP chip will be more expensive (initially) than a single 970FX. But, chip prices always fall as manufacturing processes improve and the 970MP is a new chip in a new and more competitive environment. Therefore, it has to remain price competitive with it predecessors (which I'm assuming would have to be considered the single-processor Power Mac G5 -- the current low-end in the Power Mac line).

The key here is that a single-processor 970MP should provide nearly the same performance as today's dual-processor Power Mac G5. But the single-processor 970MP system should be notably cheaper than today's dual G5 (since the latter requires two processors).

Of course, Apple could throw us a bit of a curve by not introducing a twin 970MP configuration (the "quad" system that has been discussed). In that case they might try to position the single-processor 970MP (dual core) as a substitute for today's dual G5 and keep a single 970FX at the low end. They might even be forced to do that if the initial yields on the 970MP are very low which would force the per-chip cost much higher. I hope, however, that this won't happen.
 
with the density thing, i was referring having two giant heat sinks on two single cores compared to a dual core on one chip, which would logically be much hotter than a single prosc 970, which is already hard to cool sufficiently. Thanks for the detailed, knowledgeable reply!
 
I still doubt we'll ever see the 970 line in a Powerbook. Wasn't Freescale working on a modified G4 chip that has the 64bit extensions? I bet that's what the G5 Powerbooks will have (G5 in the sense that it's 64bits). Anyone know where the 64bit G4 was mentioned?
 
korianton said:
I still doubt we'll ever see the 970 line in a Powerbook. Wasn't Freescale working on a modified G4 chip that has the 64bit extensions? I bet that's what the G5 Powerbooks will have (G5 in the sense that it's 64bits). Anyone know where the 64bit G4 was mentioned?
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Yes, I saw an article saying the new G4 will have a 667 Mhz bus and 64 bit extensions. It was on this site, but I can't find it again:
http://mac.zicos.com/index.php/cat/20/

This article even had the wattage on the new procs.
 
absolutmp5 said:
look face the facts, apple is sucessful not because of the hardware or even the software its the marketing.
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I don't know if you are 15 years old or what. How about DESIGN, the relentless pursuit of refinement, and including people with backgrounds in fields other than straight tech design teams so that there is a little bit of poetry, a little bit of artistry and maybe a little bit of history too in every machine.
 
deputy_doofy said:
Well... I hope that is the next iteration of PowerMac. Hot or not, I want one. If people's houses have not burned down from a P4, I'm not worried. :D
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Well, there was this laboratory that burned down from a G4 if I remember it correctly...
 
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