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IBM's PowerTune Technology

I don't believe that LanBrown is a troll =)

Originally posted by Lanbrown
How would PowerTune help them? They are constantly crunching numbers. No rest for those processors.
Click to expand...

If PowerTune allows the 970FX to turn off the Altivec Units and one of the Integer units during a huge floating point operation, and thus reduce power usage by say 25%, then that translates directly into savings in electricity, and increases the reliability of the entire cluster by making it less likely that any particular system will fail. It will also allow the system to keep the CPU cycling at a higher frequency when the OS would normally reduce the power usage to avoid overheating.

I personally don't see any downside to PowerTune on any hardware.

Edit: forgot the system will cycle down if it is overheating regardless of settings.
 
Originally posted by Lanbrown
This thread is NOT about what processor the Xserve has, it is about PowerTune. Slowing down the processor because of it overheating is different then PowerTune.

Show the Apple doc where it mentions PowerTune and the Xserve.
Click to expand...

You don't even know what PowerTune is. You can't have a 970FX without it! PowerTune is a collection of technologies: Voltage Islands; Voltage Slewing inline with Frequency Slewing; eFuse; new protected and user instructions to allow the OS and Apps to work with PowerTune.

You assume that if Apple chooses to turn off automatic slewing (which is a user controllable feature), all these powertune futures are not available. Your wrong. 970FX is designed usign Voltage Islands which allows different parts of the processor to work at a lower voltage than the core or caches. So Powertune is part of the 970FX fabric, you can't have one without the other.

Software API wise, it allows developers to tell the processor that we need max performance now, and now we don't. IBM gives the example of DVD playback, the processor switches up in under a uS, decodes the frame, switches down, then back up in time to deliver 60FPS. In the process it uses 25% of the power.

So basically bring your knowledge up-to-date, PowerTune is not speed stepping, it is a completely new technology. And if you think super clusters are not drooling over this feature of the 970FX, you are out of your mind. Do you have any idea of the electrical costs associated with running a huge cluster. Rarely does an operation use 100% of each processor. The power savings would be a huge selling factor to small and large firms. I know, I run a couple of Rack full of Dell 2U's and power costs make up a big part of my monthly data center costs, even when the servers are hardly being hit, like after 10PM or so.
 
...know one ...
Click to expand...

If you know one, you know them all...

[RANT]
Just a little bit about typing what you mean. There is a difference between 'know' and 'no'.
This is one of those typos that's a real pet peeve for me.

Sorry for going off topic. Every now and then I need to vent about this kind of thing... 🙂

[/RANT]

[Edit] Corrected the typo 'peave' for 'peeve', as was pointed out by others. [/Edit]
 
Re: I don't believe that LanBrown is a troll =)

Originally posted by Rincewind42
If PowerTune allows the 970FX to turn off the Altivec Units and one of the Integer units during a huge floating point operation, and thus reduce power usage by say 25%, then that translates directly into savings in electricity, and increases the reliability of the entire cluster by making it less likely that any particular system will fail. It will also allow the system to keep the CPU cycling at a higher frequency when the OS would normally reduce the power usage to avoid overheating.

I personally don't see any downside to PowerTune on any hardware.

Edit: forgot the system will cycle down if it is overheating regardless of settings.
Click to expand...

It's not like that with powertune. The system doesn't turn off, but actually "naps" not "sleeps" portions of the processor not being used. However there is a trickle of power going down those circuits that allows them to wake right up, not out of a deep sleep but out of a light nap, so to speak. It happens so quick that youwill not notice a delay as it takes only uSec to come fully awake.
 
Re: Re: I don't believe that LanBrown is a troll =)

Originally posted by stingerman
It's not like that with powertune. The system doesn't turn off, but actually "naps" not "sleeps" portions of the processor not being used. However there is a trickle of power going down those circuits that allows them to wake right up, not out of a deep sleep but out of a light nap, so to speak. It happens so quick that youwill not notice a delay as it takes only uSec to come fully awake.
Click to expand...

Cool, little more info in my head 🙂. Do you have a link that tells more about PowerTune? I've been going off of intuition more than knowledge today 😀.
 
Originally posted by a17inchFuture
With these two problems seemingly fixed, what (besides the bus) do you think needs to be implemented into the design of the PB? I mean, I know very little about what the differences between G5 and G4 will present as far as the other parts, but it would seem to me that they don't have to replace everything in the PB just becasue its a next gen processor. [/B]
Click to expand...

The powerbook g5 is

black anodized aluminum
red glowing apple in cover á la current notebooks
grille/mesh on parts of side edges
backlit keyboard white letters on black keys
 
Re: Re: Re: I don't believe that LanBrown is a troll =)

Originally posted by Rincewind42
Cool, little more info in my head 🙂. Do you have a link that tells more about PowerTune? I've been going off of intuition more than knowledge today 😀.
Click to expand...

If I posted the link, I'd have to kill everyone that saw it afterwards. Actually, it is all on IBM's research site. I'll do better than a link, I'll teach you how to fish on the Internet. In the Google search enter:

voltage islands research site:ibm.com

that should get you started. But the IBM research site has so much more.
 
Originally posted by utilizer
Anyways though, I'm calling it:
-PowerBooks ... 12 in. form factor retains the G4...
Click to expand...

God, I hope not! That would be terrible... Better to discontinue the 12" line and leave that size to the iBook than to have a G4 still in the PowerBook line after the G5 PowerBooks have been released...
 
Originally posted by Snowy_River
God, I hope not! That would be terrible... Better to discontinue the 12" line and leave that size to the iBook than to have a G4 still in the PowerBook line after the G5 PowerBooks have been released...
Click to expand...

I am hoping Apple has other plans for the 12" line. Not specifically the 970FX, which should work fine in that form factor at 1.4-1.6GHz. But, I would like to see them bring out a SoC design, that should let them reduce the thickness and weight. The weight under 3lbs. After all, you buy a 12" because its size and weght are more important than performance (though performance is important.) In the Wintel world small form factor notebooks 3 pounds and under seem to have a ceiling of 700MHz-1GHz, but Apple can beat that with a 90NM SoC design.
 
Originally posted by Lanbrown
I undoubtedly know more then you do.
Click to expand...

I just have to say that if you are going to make a comment like that, you need to do more proof-reading because your writing certainly does NOT demonstrate it:
1. It isn't "then" - *thAn* you do. (above)
2. "known that it is sued in the Xserve". (1:49pm) It has an attorney?
3. " show me where the Xserve will use take advantage of PowerTune."(1:49pm) Huh?
4. " then the chip". Again, "than". (1;55pm)
5. " they brief delay in getting". The?

And that was a QUICK, incomplete look.

I agree with some of what you said, but a comment like that is SURE to turn people off.

Apple *wants* a PB G5, obviously they know sales are impacted. They won't *announce* it until they can say when it will be available (even if it slips a bit) and can sell it via pre-orders.

They likewise won't pre-announce more than 2 months because it would *kill* G4 sales and they can't afford a quarter of low(er) PB sales from any perspective. That is why Jobs says "by the end of 2004". It gives flexibility and it gives them the option of doing it sooner if at all possible.
 
So what will it be?

The article states that the chip could be used from PC's to laptops to servers. Apple appears to be using it in the Xserve, so what will they use it in next? I don't think I've heard any Apple pronouncements about when the next laptops or PowerMacs are coming. They could be working on one or the other, or both, but what would give them the biggest splash? They won't be selling PowerMacs for clusters anymore, so maybe that's why they came out with the Xserve first. (And Steve did say in his MacWorld SF keynote that he knew he was pissing off a thousand customers by diverting the first PowerMacs to Virginia Tech, but he didn't care). So if they have plans to sell several thousand Xserves to academic or government installations, and all the new PowerMacs and PowerBooks use the same chip, does that mean that we, the common consumers, will be waiting again? I'm sure you guys have an opinion . . . .
 
The common consumer is the last one Apple thinks of. the computer that saved all their hides was Imac crt. consumers bought it up. without it you could have said bye bye to Apple. Consumer lines are crippled by G4 then a little more- low clock G4s and then a little more- taking L3 out and then a little more- with bottom video cards.=== poor hardware for the consumer. They dont get it.😡 Hey i know what! we can put a 52" screen on crippledG4 imac and maybe we will get a bunch of customers🙄 If there is any one product screaming for 970fx or even current technology it is Imac.
 
Re: So what will it be?

Originally posted by MacEyeDoc
The article states that the chip could be used from PC's to laptops to servers. Apple appears to be using it in the Xserve, so what will they use it in next? I don't think I've heard any Apple pronouncements about when the next laptops or PowerMacs are coming. They could be working on one or the other, or both, but what would give them the biggest splash? They won't be selling PowerMacs for clusters anymore, so maybe that's why they came out with the Xserve first. (And Steve did say in his MacWorld SF keynote that he knew he was pissing off a thousand customers by diverting the first PowerMacs to Virginia Tech, but he didn't care). So if they have plans to sell several thousand Xserves to academic or government installations, and all the new PowerMacs and PowerBooks use the same chip, does that mean that we, the common consumers, will be waiting again? I'm sure you guys have an opinion . . . .
Click to expand...
Well, IBM doesn't seem to having yield problems on the new process (see my previous post in the thread, I think). They're using 300mm wafers (big) and a 90nm process (small), which all means "lots of chips". Plus the Xservers are using lower clocked chips, at least for now. So, I don't think there is a shortage of parts coming from IBM.

Just my take on it.
 
is this really new?

my friends wintel laptop can do something similar, although i dont know if it can vary clock speed "several thousand times per second"...anybody know how this compares to existing technology from other vendors?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't believe that LanBrown is a troll =)

Originally posted by stingerman
If I posted the link, I'd have to kill everyone that saw it afterwards. Actually, it is all on IBM's research site. I'll do better than a link, I'll teach you how to fish on the Internet. In the Google search enter:

voltage islands research site:ibm.com

that should get you started. But the IBM research site has so much more.
Click to expand...

Well, I tried "powertune site:ibm.com" and got nothing 🙂. Thought the info might have still been under embargo somewhere. Thanks for the info tho.
 
Re: Re: So what will it be?

Originally posted by daveL
Well, IBM doesn't seem to having yield problems on the new process (see my previous post in the thread, I think). They're using 300mm wafers (big) and a 90nm process (small), which all means "lots of chips". Plus the Xservers are using lower clocked chips, at least for now. So, I don't think there is a shortage of parts coming from IBM.

Just my take on it.
Click to expand...

No shortage of 970FX's at all, IBM can run huge quantities in just a matter of days.

They were smart to release the Xserve at 2GHz otherwise PM G5 owners would have put their orders on hold. Once the PM G5 revision is out, I suspect the Xserve's will very quickly jump up in speed.
 
Originally posted by stingerman
You don't even know what PowerTune is. You can't have a 970FX without it! PowerTune is a collection of technologies: Voltage Islands; Voltage Slewing inline with Frequency Slewing; eFuse; new protected and user instructions to allow the OS and Apps to work with PowerTune.
Click to expand...

Nice post stingerman. Thanks for coming in and shedding some light on the topic. So many uninformed people like to come into forums, act like they know more than everyone when they don't, and cry that the sky is falling about everything. I like it when the real knowledgeable people speak up.
 
Re: Re: Re: So what will it be?

Originally posted by stingerman
No shortage of 970FX's at all, IBM can run huge quantities in just a matter of days.

They were smart to release the Xserve at 2GHz otherwise PM G5 owners would have put their orders on hold. Once the PM G5 revision is out, I suspect the Xserve's will very quickly jump up in speed.
Click to expand...

Good point about the Xserve at 2.0 instead of 2.5 - people wold have smelled the PowerMac at 2.5 and sales would have nosedived. Any comments on the new PowerMac not being the typical Rev. B we are used to seeing, since it will be sporting a completely new chip technology? You usually wait for the Rev. B version to be a slightly faster and more solid version of the first, but now we have a new type of chip - will it be the Rev. A PowerMac G5FX?
 
Originally posted by Snowy_River
If you know one, you know them all...

[RANT]
This is one of those typos that's a real pet peave for me.
[/RANT]
Click to expand...

Heh. It's one of my pet peeves as well......

</pedant>
 
G5 PowerBooks Won't Ship Until October

Originally posted by jamilecrire
The "unannounced" laptop containing the ATI Radeon 9700 is the new Dell laptop. It's the funniest thing I've ever seen. 2" thick, 55 lbs, runs at 180 degrees F, and is over priced as well.

I wish apple would hurry up and announce the G5 Powerbooks so I can get the 3 month wait until they are in stores over with.
Click to expand...
I don't think G5 PowerBooks will ship until October. I think anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. I think putting the 970FX into a PowerBook is a major engineering achievement that still needs another 6 months to accomplish.

I will be pleasantly surprised if it happens any sooner.
 
Originally posted by Snowy_River
If you know one, you know them all...

[RANT]
Just a little bit about typing what you mean. There is a difference between 'know' and 'no'.
This is one of those typos that's a real pet peave for me.

Sorry for going off topic. Every now and then I need to vent about this kind of thing... 🙂

[/RANT]
Click to expand...

Posts pointing out other's typos shouldn't contain any of their own. A real pEEve of mine.



oops, someone else beat me to it.(edit)
 
Originally posted by a17inchFuture
its not like the G5 powerbook idea is coming out of nowhere: the most significant reason that all of us have cited over the past 8 months as to why they wouldn't get G5s in powerbooks soon was the processors' heat production and energy consumption. With these two problems seemingly fixed, what (besides the bus) do you think needs to be implemented into the design of the PB? I mean, I know very little about what the differences between G5 and G4 will present as far as the other parts, but it would seem to me that they don't have to replace everything in the PB just becasue its a next gen processor. Am I wrong about this, or does Lanbrown actually know about as much as me?
Click to expand...

The heat problem has not been "fixed"... Everyone is comparing the 90nm part with the 130nm part and then saying it's good enough of a laptop-- can't do that. You've gotta compare it to the current G4 systems.

The 970FX at 1.4GHz pulls about 50% more power than the current 7447s at 1GHz. Not a big difference, granted, and Apple is actually running them at 1.25GHz in the 15", but if they have a target run time and a heat budget then every watt has to be made up somewhere else...

As someone mentioned the G5 is running a bus that's both wider and faster than the G4. The G5 power specs don't account for this-- chips are spec'd with their outputs floating.

Then there's the memory which is another power hungry beast. The G4s have DDR SDRAM, but they don't really use it-- the G5 does. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple waits for DDR2 to be viable-- it cuts the memory power by 50-60%. That could go a long way towards balancing the power budget. The downside is that DDR2 is currently more expensive, but when did that ever get in the way?

The Xserve shell was modified for more efficient cooling. I'm sure they didn't throw out that extra hard drive on a whim. This in itself doesn't mean they can't close the case to make a laptop, but it's another sign.

I take the 90nm G5 as just another step down the path. We'll get there, but I don't think we're there yet. I'm still guessing second half of the year.
 
Originally posted by PBGPowerbook
The powerbook g5 is:
black anodized aluminum
red glowing apple in cover á la current notebooks
Click to expand...
I think the hope is that they can get the power down far enough that the apple glows white again...
 
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