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IBM's PowerTune Technology
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Heated metal colors
This is incorrect. Any metal above absolute zero is always "glowing," radiating energy. The hotter the metal gets, the higher the energy of the radiation. Thus, the first color you see is red, the longest wavelength (lowest energy) of the visible spectrum.
As the metal heats up, higher energy colors are added to it: orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet. The combination of the highest color with the lower ones yields the color we see. Thus, we never see green glowing metal because the metal would also be radiating red to yellow, which all combine and start to turn the visible color to white.
Therefore, the apparent color of heating metal proceeds red, orange, yellow, white. Metals cannot glow blue due to heating.
And, uh, powertune is rad.
This is incorrect. Any metal above absolute zero is always "glowing," radiating energy. The hotter the metal gets, the higher the energy of the radiation. Thus, the first color you see is red, the longest wavelength (lowest energy) of the visible spectrum.
As the metal heats up, higher energy colors are added to it: orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet. The combination of the highest color with the lower ones yields the color we see. Thus, we never see green glowing metal because the metal would also be radiating red to yellow, which all combine and start to turn the visible color to white.
Therefore, the apparent color of heating metal proceeds red, orange, yellow, white. Metals cannot glow blue due to heating.
And, uh, powertune is rad.
Snowy_River
macrumors 68030
LanBrown,
I suspect (though I don't know) that you don't know as much about PowerTune as you're claiming to. You may know a lot about power management processes on chips, but do you know that PowerTune is just another power management? Do you know exactly what it does and doesn't do? For the sake of keeping a more productive discussion, would you consider phrasing your statements in terms of what you do know and what you suppose, rather than stating your suppositions as facts?
Snowy_River
macrumors 68030
Re: Apple Engineering
You're assuming that Apple is a traditional top-down organization, and hasn't set things up in a more team/project oriented fashion. If they have, then there could be periods of time when there are litterally no engineers working on new PowerBooks.
You're assuming that Apple is a traditional top-down organization, and hasn't set things up in a more team/project oriented fashion. If they have, then there could be periods of time when there are litterally no engineers working on new PowerBooks.
deputy_doofy
macrumors 65816
I think using the iBook's processor shift is a bad example. If I'm reading some older IBM notes correctly (http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/products/powerpc/newsletter/jun2003/newproductfocus.html),
the G3 was running up to 1.1GHz, with a 1mb L2 cache, and a potential bus speed of 200MHz.
While this chip does not have Altivec on it, it would have given (and probably still would) Motorola's G4 a run for its money.
The answer, marketing-wise, is to give the iBook the older G4. That way, it LOOKS like Apple is being nicer to those new buyers, but in reality, it is escaping a marketing nightmare by having to explain the new G3s processing capability vs. the G4.
Just my opinion. 🙂
Snowy_River
macrumors 68030
Re: Re: LanBrown is a troll!
Do you suppose that could be because people are looking forward to them? I know I am. I'm not going to be in the market for a new PB for another 6 months to a year, but I still really want to see the PB G5 come out sooner rather than later. I love the rumors that point to the possibility that it could be announced tomorrow. Will I be grossly disappointed if it isn't released until Sept.? Not too much. Will I be grossly disappointed if it isn't released until Sept. '05? Yeah, that I'd find a bit harder to take. But, until it does come out, I enjoy reading the news about the technologies that are going to make it more likely that the PB G5 is on its way...
Do you suppose that could be because people are looking forward to them? I know I am. I'm not going to be in the market for a new PB for another 6 months to a year, but I still really want to see the PB G5 come out sooner rather than later. I love the rumors that point to the possibility that it could be announced tomorrow. Will I be grossly disappointed if it isn't released until Sept.? Not too much. Will I be grossly disappointed if it isn't released until Sept. '05? Yeah, that I'd find a bit harder to take. But, until it does come out, I enjoy reading the news about the technologies that are going to make it more likely that the PB G5 is on its way...
Re: Heated metal colors
This is getting beat to death, and it's off topic, but what both of you are trying to refer to is the blackbody spectrum of electromagnetic radiation. At any nonzero temperature, any material will radiate energy in principle. The distribution of the electromagnetic energy flux (intensity of the light) as a function of wavelength (or frequency) is given by the so-called Planck law. For a given temperature, there will be a maximum, or peak, in the distribution. The temperature and peak wavelength are related by what's called Wein's displacement law:
(lambda_peak)*(Temp) = 0.002898[meter][Kelvin]. Square brackets indicate the units involved.
So, obviously the peak may occur at any wavelength, or color, including blue, infrared, ultraviolet, etc. But, because of the shape of the Planck distribution, what is observed is approximately the sum of wavelengths greater than or equal to the peak wavelength. Also, the blackbody law is not unique to metals. It's true for any material, including glasses, semiconductors, or whatever.
This is getting beat to death, and it's off topic, but what both of you are trying to refer to is the blackbody spectrum of electromagnetic radiation. At any nonzero temperature, any material will radiate energy in principle. The distribution of the electromagnetic energy flux (intensity of the light) as a function of wavelength (or frequency) is given by the so-called Planck law. For a given temperature, there will be a maximum, or peak, in the distribution. The temperature and peak wavelength are related by what's called Wein's displacement law:
(lambda_peak)*(Temp) = 0.002898[meter][Kelvin]. Square brackets indicate the units involved.
So, obviously the peak may occur at any wavelength, or color, including blue, infrared, ultraviolet, etc. But, because of the shape of the Planck distribution, what is observed is approximately the sum of wavelengths greater than or equal to the peak wavelength. Also, the blackbody law is not unique to metals. It's true for any material, including glasses, semiconductors, or whatever.
Sol
macrumors 68000
G5 destined for the desktop
Would Apple use G5s in the iMacs before it uses them in PowerBooks? I know that such a move would not fit in with their consumer/proffessional product grid but iMac sales are not what they used to be and PowerBooks are selling well, even with G4 processors. Judging from the information posted on this forum it sounds like the G5 is not quite ready for portables yet but it is perfectly suited for desktops. If IBM really can use larger wafers with the smaller process and produce more good parts than the previous generation of 970 CPUs then all the desktops, including the eMac should be using these.
Of course Apple would not update any of their PCs to a new processor without making drastic changes to the case. Personally I miss the transparent plastics and patterns; you read it right, at least one person liked the Blue Dalmation iMac. Having said that, the colours of the iPod Mini's look promising and I would be happy with materials like that for the next generation of the iMac, eMac and full-size iPod.
Would Apple use G5s in the iMacs before it uses them in PowerBooks? I know that such a move would not fit in with their consumer/proffessional product grid but iMac sales are not what they used to be and PowerBooks are selling well, even with G4 processors. Judging from the information posted on this forum it sounds like the G5 is not quite ready for portables yet but it is perfectly suited for desktops. If IBM really can use larger wafers with the smaller process and produce more good parts than the previous generation of 970 CPUs then all the desktops, including the eMac should be using these.
Of course Apple would not update any of their PCs to a new processor without making drastic changes to the case. Personally I miss the transparent plastics and patterns; you read it right, at least one person liked the Blue Dalmation iMac. Having said that, the colours of the iPod Mini's look promising and I would be happy with materials like that for the next generation of the iMac, eMac and full-size iPod.
u2mr2os2
macrumors member
Scaling
I haven't read up yet on PowerTune, but it seems the original article was saying that what they have created is a single chip that can trade power efficiency for speed as needed in order to be used in a desktop, laptop, or embedded systems.
I take this to mean that you don't need to design a low-power version for a laptop - you just clock it low all the time, and it never uses much power. Certainly, you could utilize the PowerTune features to further optimize power consumption, but you'd not go faster than a certain lmit. The point is that a 970FX in a laptop clocked at 1.4GHz using little power could be the same chip as in a desktop running at 2.5GHz using a lot of power. Both could utilize power savings. It seems this way, you could just produce a bunch of the same chip rather than producing separate lower power versions.
Since the CPU could be rated at a higher clock that is normally used in say a laptop, it is possible that PowerTune could allow you to run the CPU in bursts of higher clock rates using more power, just keeping the average thermal output within the cooling capabilities. This doesn't sound too unusual, except that the CPU in the laptop rather than being limited to 1.4GHZ and using power management to slow down from there, it could be that it is rated to 2GHz or more, and can burst up to there, but to run at a sustained 100%, it would be limited to 1.4GHZ say.
I haven't read up yet on PowerTune, but it seems the original article was saying that what they have created is a single chip that can trade power efficiency for speed as needed in order to be used in a desktop, laptop, or embedded systems.
I take this to mean that you don't need to design a low-power version for a laptop - you just clock it low all the time, and it never uses much power. Certainly, you could utilize the PowerTune features to further optimize power consumption, but you'd not go faster than a certain lmit. The point is that a 970FX in a laptop clocked at 1.4GHz using little power could be the same chip as in a desktop running at 2.5GHz using a lot of power. Both could utilize power savings. It seems this way, you could just produce a bunch of the same chip rather than producing separate lower power versions.
Since the CPU could be rated at a higher clock that is normally used in say a laptop, it is possible that PowerTune could allow you to run the CPU in bursts of higher clock rates using more power, just keeping the average thermal output within the cooling capabilities. This doesn't sound too unusual, except that the CPU in the laptop rather than being limited to 1.4GHZ and using power management to slow down from there, it could be that it is rated to 2GHz or more, and can burst up to there, but to run at a sustained 100%, it would be limited to 1.4GHZ say.
Rincewind42
macrumors 6502a
Re: Scaling
Well, the clock speed that a cpu runs at isn't just a matter of power savings or design, but also of the actual materials used - and unfortunately we still can't produce exact replicas every time yet 😀 . So regardless of what PowerTune brings to the table for power savings, the chip that goes into your laptop advertised as 1.4Ghz will almost certainly never go over that speed, and truthfully it could be a nightmare if it did. A small fault on the motherboard, or a crash in the OS and suddenly the chip is busy burning a hole in the bottom of your lap at 2.5 Ghz 🙁 .So while your idea has merit (who doesn't want a faster computer!) there are practical issues that would likely prevent it.
Well, the clock speed that a cpu runs at isn't just a matter of power savings or design, but also of the actual materials used - and unfortunately we still can't produce exact replicas every time yet 😀 . So regardless of what PowerTune brings to the table for power savings, the chip that goes into your laptop advertised as 1.4Ghz will almost certainly never go over that speed, and truthfully it could be a nightmare if it did. A small fault on the motherboard, or a crash in the OS and suddenly the chip is busy burning a hole in the bottom of your lap at 2.5 Ghz 🙁 .So while your idea has merit (who doesn't want a faster computer!) there are practical issues that would likely prevent it.
Re: Re: Heated metal colors
Er,think you were seeing oxidation (burning) of a metal, here, which is a chemical process. For instance, if I recall my O level chemistry (Jeez! 30 years ago. Getting old!) Strontium will burn with a reddish/purple flame. Copper, i think, will give off a green light when burned. These are emission spectra that are telling you about the energy levels in the outer shell of the atoms' electronic configurations. Absolutely nothing to do with Black body radiation which has been much better explained in one of the previous posts than i could.
Could we BE more off-topic???
Er,think you were seeing oxidation (burning) of a metal, here, which is a chemical process. For instance, if I recall my O level chemistry (Jeez! 30 years ago. Getting old!) Strontium will burn with a reddish/purple flame. Copper, i think, will give off a green light when burned. These are emission spectra that are telling you about the energy levels in the outer shell of the atoms' electronic configurations. Absolutely nothing to do with Black body radiation which has been much better explained in one of the previous posts than i could.
Could we BE more off-topic???
Rincewind42
macrumors 6502a
Re: Re: Re: Heated metal colors
Sure! What's the maximum airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? To which you might ask African or European?
And at some point we would have to wonder how it was we got here in the first place...
But to bring things back around... I don't think we'll see a 970FX actually in use until 10.3.3 finalizes. Something tells me that the Xserve and any other new 970FX Macs will require it.
Sure! What's the maximum airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? To which you might ask African or European?
And at some point we would have to wonder how it was we got here in the first place...
But to bring things back around... I don't think we'll see a 970FX actually in use until 10.3.3 finalizes. Something tells me that the Xserve and any other new 970FX Macs will require it.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Heated metal colors
I agree. The only thing I can imagine responsible for holding back hardware (PMG5 rB) right now is the OS. I can't imagine Apple withholding the 970fx from Power Macs when they've already announced it for Xserves. Buyers are now holding off.
edit: mistake, spelling
I agree. The only thing I can imagine responsible for holding back hardware (PMG5 rB) right now is the OS. I can't imagine Apple withholding the 970fx from Power Macs when they've already announced it for Xserves. Buyers are now holding off.
edit: mistake, spelling
Re: Re: Apple Engineering
PHHHHHHHTTTTT!!!!!
That sound you hear is the coffee coming out of my nose. Apple IS THE MOST top-down organization ever, with King Jobs at the helm.
Honestly, did you think before you wrote that post?
PHHHHHHHTTTTT!!!!!
That sound you hear is the coffee coming out of my nose. Apple IS THE MOST top-down organization ever, with King Jobs at the helm.
Honestly, did you think before you wrote that post?
Re: I don't believe that LanBrown is a troll =)
There are servers that have been running for years, some with a very high load. Do you know why processors in servers don't clock as high as their desktop counterparts? They are made differently. They are designed thicker to withstand the heat and run at 100% all day long without a complaint.
Turning features on and off allow them to cool and then when they turn on and they start being pushed to the limit; they heat up. This causes parts to contract and expand, which is actually bad for electronic and their electrical joints.
Overheating in a server? The fans are more then capable of cooling the system when all CPU's are running at 100%. A few of the fans can even fail and it will still keep it below the minimum temperature threshold. Typically ever PS will have it's own fan. Then the main cage area will have several fans and the board layout is designed with optimal cooling in mind. Like putting the memory in line with the airflow. This not only reduces noise, but also reduces heat zones within the chassis by the lack of airflow.
You keep mentioning overheating. ANY properly designed system will not overheat even when the system is being pushed to its limit. If it does, then the manufacturer took the cheap way out and didn't do proper engineering/testing. If a fan fails, then yes, system performance could be impacted, but not in a properly designed server. Not even a PS failure should impact system performance. That's why the good servers have N+1.
If you have a part of a CPU failing, it needs to be replaced. It was obviously not manufactured correctly and will only continue to fail.
There are servers that have been running for years, some with a very high load. Do you know why processors in servers don't clock as high as their desktop counterparts? They are made differently. They are designed thicker to withstand the heat and run at 100% all day long without a complaint.
Turning features on and off allow them to cool and then when they turn on and they start being pushed to the limit; they heat up. This causes parts to contract and expand, which is actually bad for electronic and their electrical joints.
Overheating in a server? The fans are more then capable of cooling the system when all CPU's are running at 100%. A few of the fans can even fail and it will still keep it below the minimum temperature threshold. Typically ever PS will have it's own fan. Then the main cage area will have several fans and the board layout is designed with optimal cooling in mind. Like putting the memory in line with the airflow. This not only reduces noise, but also reduces heat zones within the chassis by the lack of airflow.
You keep mentioning overheating. ANY properly designed system will not overheat even when the system is being pushed to its limit. If it does, then the manufacturer took the cheap way out and didn't do proper engineering/testing. If a fan fails, then yes, system performance could be impacted, but not in a properly designed server. Not even a PS failure should impact system performance. That's why the good servers have N+1.
If you have a part of a CPU failing, it needs to be replaced. It was obviously not manufactured correctly and will only continue to fail.
PowerTune is a collection of other technologies. Ti showed a product last year, early last year that it could turn off components in a chip that wasn't in use. Hmm, some of the features in PowerTune. I wonder who thought of that first, it wasn't IBM, and it might not have even been Ti.
A cluster/server can never fully utilize 100% of the processors, but there are systems that can get over 98% processor efficiency, it involves hardware and software. Cray, IBM, Sun, Fujitsu and others all know how to make the most out of each processor. Some clusters use Ethernet as a cross-connect, which is very inefficient.
BTW, PowerTune can control the clock speed as well.
What you fail to realize is that just because something is there, doesn't mean it has to be used.
I feel sorry for you, having to use Dells.
Re: Re: I don't believe that LanBrown is a troll =)
It will take at least one clock cycle to get that portion of the chip ready, now won't it?
It will take at least one clock cycle to get that portion of the chip ready, now won't it?
Oh the vents!
Call me crazy, and its possible that someone else already pointed this out in the pages and pages of posts, but has anyone taken a look at the new Xserve? Did you notice the huge vents on the front of it? Small animals could be sucked inside this thing if they scurried too close. And this is using the same processor that everyone is proposing for the PB. Granted, these things are designed to run balls to the wall 24/7, and some come with dual processors, two things that a PB won't have to deal with, but so did the previous Xserves and there were no signs of need for extreme cooling. Even though IBM has said that this chip COULD be used for laptops, I don't think that it WILL be used by apple until less extreme measures are needed, even taking into account the power management of the chip. I'll eat my hat and sell my G4 PB if we see G5PBs any sooner than 7 months.
Call me crazy, and its possible that someone else already pointed this out in the pages and pages of posts, but has anyone taken a look at the new Xserve? Did you notice the huge vents on the front of it? Small animals could be sucked inside this thing if they scurried too close. And this is using the same processor that everyone is proposing for the PB. Granted, these things are designed to run balls to the wall 24/7, and some come with dual processors, two things that a PB won't have to deal with, but so did the previous Xserves and there were no signs of need for extreme cooling. Even though IBM has said that this chip COULD be used for laptops, I don't think that it WILL be used by apple until less extreme measures are needed, even taking into account the power management of the chip. I'll eat my hat and sell my G4 PB if we see G5PBs any sooner than 7 months.
Re: So what will it be?
An update to the PM G5 would not be big news, just an update. A PB would be big news as it's a new product. A G5 iMac would be big news as it too would be a new product. Apple could release updated PM's without a big event. They would release an all new product at a big event. So maybe PB's or iMacs will be unveiled at the next event.
An update to the PM G5 would not be big news, just an update. A PB would be big news as it's a new product. A G5 iMac would be big news as it too would be a new product. Apple could release updated PM's without a big event. They would release an all new product at a big event. So maybe PB's or iMacs will be unveiled at the next event.
Re: Re: Re: LanBrown is a troll!
Yes, but every time a small piece of news is released, what is the first thing that is said; PB's anytime now. That has been said for MONTHS. To find the earliest date when we will see them is to find the next big event that Apple will be at. PM's updates can happen at anytime. Shipping times are a different story though.
Yes, but every time a small piece of news is released, what is the first thing that is said; PB's anytime now. That has been said for MONTHS. To find the earliest date when we will see them is to find the next big event that Apple will be at. PM's updates can happen at anytime. Shipping times are a different story though.
