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Anyone at Apple right now with access to the code and keys has been able to make and sell a hacked version for years.

You assume that anyone with access to the code also has access to all the needed signing keys and to the final build mechanism. That seriously underestimates ordinary business security procedures; and Apple is not ordinary regarding security.
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It was the Land of the Free but now it is turning more into a land that is run by communists. Apple is praying Trump does not get elected...

You must be confusing Trump with Bernie and Hillary. Trump is at least slightly to the right of both of them. Plus he knows how to run (and to occasionally bankrupt) a business. The others have even less of a clue.
 
Your Race Card® expired in 2010. One thing, would be his illegally spying on over 100,000,000 Americans daily. And from the start of Obama’s presidency, he has continued and expanded Bush’s illegal spying programs worse than what Bush did. Another thing, from the very start of Obama’s presidency, he has been committing treason by intentionally withholding the 28 pages on foreign government(s) involvement in the 9/11 attacks. Not only has he continued to protect 9/11 co-conspirators, he has conspired with those very 9/11 co-conspirators in arming terrorists in Syria to attempt an overthrow of the legitimate Syrian government (a government that has not attacked the U.S. or even threatened to). That is treason x2. Something else, Obama has continued and expanded by at least 10x the extrajudicial mass murder drone program, that has killed over 90% civilians, thousands of civilians, and resulted in the murdering of at least four American citizens including an American teenager. Obama deserves to be in ADX Florence for life, with other terrorists and anti-American traitors, for those and many other crimes he also has committed.


I guess you mean the meta-data collection.
Bust started it and yes Obama didn't end it. So what should we have done with Bush before?

Also withholding a 9/11 report, did bush share it? Oh, did Bush lie about WMD which got us in the quagmire in the Middle-East to begin with?

Overthrowing legitimate governments?
You d realize that the CIA and our government has been doing this for the last 65 years or so?
We did it in Central America for the Dole Pineapple Company. We did it for Chaquita Banana.
We overthrew Iran in the 1950's because they were aligning themselves with the Russians.

President's don't commit treason, they change policy.
You need to remember that and you'd sleep better.
Quite frankly, I don't trust the lying lot of them.
 
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Gee, I wonder what crime my friends and I committed during the Vietnam War? Don't remember any convictions.

I think young men are still legally required to sign up for the draft, but feel free to correct me.
 
So what's your advice to Apple (and all other corporations) when China and Russia come calling? So we've got this device your software is on and we want you to break into it: we're not interested in telling you where we got it from. We just want the information. Is it a terrorist or dissident? Remember, your dissident may be their terrorist, even if they're only protesting for human rights.

The FBI is doing more to erode human rights than any dictator could hope to do.
This, of course, is the elephant that the FBI is either willfully ignoring or doesn't care about as long as they "get theirs", and why this case is so important globally and not just in the US.

China has (according to credible, mainstream news reports) refrained from asking for backdoors into Apple products because the US hasn't either. It's actually rather surprising, given the country's penchant for surveillance and lack of privacy.

Once this precedent is set, there is absolutely nothing stopping any other country in which Apple sells products from asking for exactly the same tool the FBI was provided with a court order, and that they now know exists. China, of course, will have no problem getting a court to declare any dissident or freedom-of-speech advocate a "terrorist" or whatever else they need to get a court order, and it will be just as lawful in China as the FBI's request was in the US.

And really, why shouldn't they? They have their own government standards, and if Apple is willing to do as the US government asks, why shouldn't they be given the same consideration?

So what is Apple to do when China, or Russia, or Israel, Japan, or England, or Spain, or whatever government you, personally, don't trust comes calling? Say "No, we said yes to the FBI, but screw you, you're not America"? What's to stop China (for example) from saying "oh, in that case, you can't sell your products here anymore"? For, say, Venezuela, that might be a very small loss for Apple, but China would cost them around $60B in revenue a year--almost unfathomable amounts of money.

The alternative, of course, is doing the same thing for whoever asks using whatever their internal standard of guilt is. If I were, say, a Chinese citizen who didn't like the government all that much, I'd be rather scared of the implications, and it would effectively limit what I'd be willing to do in terms of private online communication.
 
Literally at gunpoint!
"it's employees are literally at gunpoint" is the key phrase, but from the dead-eyed Killer Fringe Brigade. Not the FBI.
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This is The Teflon Cook deflecting responsibility onto others.

While I agree, they literally are not at gun point by the FBI. Your usage of literally, is literally incorrect.

just in general to you guys, try not complying with that court order and see what happens. A gun is implied in everything that government does, because that is what government is. It is a coercive institution. Sometimes its use is proper, but certainly not in this case, and to suggest that its capacity to fine, imprison, or ultimately kill those who resist these acts of coercion is indicative of udder concrete-boundedness. A gun is implied in their action, and these people are nothing short of heroic for standing up for their rights in the face of this.

Just because you're not the one being threatened doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I promise you, they feel it tangibly.
 
All of this is giving the governments of the U.K. and France the idea to pass laws to require back doors to be installed in any device sold in those countries. If they pass those laws, what will Apple and Google do then? Stop selling in those countries or build a version with a backdoor?
 
Gee, I wonder what crime my friends and I committed during the Vietnam War? Don't remember any convictions.

I think young men are still legally required to sign up for the draft, but feel free to correct me.
I explicitly mentioned the draft which I am registered for.

Constitutionally, Article I, Section 8 outlines the power to "raise and support Armies", on which the law creating the selective service system is based and which has been interpreted (in court, a hundred years ago) as being not in conflict with the involuntary servitude clause of the 13th Amendment, since the latter is referring to compulsory labor specifically and the former is about conscripting people to an army. At minimum, it's a pretty good bet that the 13th Amendment wasn't intended to change the practice of Article I, Section 8 at the time it was added, but of course that doesn't mean that it might not, and who knows, that interpretation might change in the future if the draft is ever eliminated entirely.

This is why registering under the existing selective service law--which is on the books, and requires both the President and Congress to agree that it is necessary to draft people to increase the size of the military--is quite different than the FBI obtaining a court order to conscript a person.

I may be ignorant about this, but I believe that while you can be drafted in order to form an army, you can't be drafted to perform arbitrary labor. I have never been drafted, so I may well be wrong about that. Certainly, they can say, "Hey, you are a trained programmer, want a job programming weapon systems instead of fighting on the front lines?" and nearly anyone is going to say "yes", but I don't believe they can draft you, explicitly, to do that unless that task is part of an army and they train you for the task they want you to do.

There is also now a provision for conscientious objectors, who one could argue are being conscripted to perform arbitrary, non-military labor in lieu of military service, but are being given that as an opportunity because they hold deep moral objections to the service they were being conscripted for. The FBI ruling would allow no such option, and claiming that they were owed some alternative form of service in lieu of the morally objectionable labor they are requesting would just drive home that this is, effectively, a draft by the FBI for non-military reasons.
 
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...Now replace that with GovtOS.

I prefer the term "fbiOS" since it's just and addition of iOS lol.
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With the extremely lax immigration policies here I think ISIS may be more of a threat than you think.

I never said that ISIS wasn't a threat. But if you'd stop watching the news as your source of information and read something, do your research and think for yourself to come to conclusions, you might see that an overpowered government is just as dangerous (if not more) as any other terror group.

But I can understand your viewpoint. I mean, what has ever really happened in Connecticut? :p
 
I prefer the term "fbiOS" since it's just and addition of iOS lol.
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I never said that ISIS wasn't a threat. But if you'd stop watching the news as your source of information and read something, do your research and think for yourself to come to conclusions, you might see that an overpowered government is just as dangerous (if not more) as any other terror group.

But I can understand your viewpoint. I mean, what has ever really happened in Connecticut? :p

Oh my god. Not even worth the time.

Don't go away mad, dude. Just go away.
 
Gee, I wonder what crime my friends and I committed during the Vietnam War? Don't remember any convictions.

I think young men are still legally required to sign up for the draft, but feel free to correct me.

Because the Constitution grants the government, and more specifically Congress, the power to raise and support armies. Moreover, the 13th amendment was not intended as an interdiction to exceptional duties believed to be owed to the state by its citizens, specifically providing for the common defence. In point of fact, I do not agree with compulsory military service, and would resist irrespective of the legal penalties, but the fact remains that it's part of the rule of law.

That said, there is no Constitutional foundation, belonging to any organ of state, to compel Apple's compliance in this matter.
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I explicitly mentioned the draft which I am registered for.

Constitutionally, Article I, Section 8 outlines the power to "raise and support Armies", on which the law creating the selective service system is based and which has been interpreted (in court, a hundred years ago) as being not in conflict with the involuntary servitude clause of the 13th Amendment, since the latter is referring to compulsory labor specifically and the former is about conscripting people to an army. At minimum, it's a pretty good bet that the 13th Amendment wasn't intended to change the practice of Article I, Section 8 at the time it was added, but of course that doesn't mean that it might not, and who knows, that interpretation might change in the future if the draft is ever eliminated entirely.

This is why registering under the existing selective service law--which is on the books, and requires both the President and Congress to agree that it is necessary to draft people to increase the size of the military--is quite different than the FBI obtaining a court order to conscript a person.

I may be ignorant about this, but I believe that while you can be drafted in order to form an army, you can't be drafted to perform arbitrary labor. I have never been drafted, so I may well be wrong about that. Certainly, they can say, "Hey, you are a trained programmer, want a job programming weapon systems instead of fighting on the front lines?" and nearly anyone is going to say "yes", but I don't believe they can draft you, explicitly, to do that unless that task is part of an army and they train you for the task they want you to do.

There is also now a provision for conscientious objectors, who one could argue are being conscripted to perform arbitrary, non-military labor in lieu of military service, but are being given that as an opportunity because they hold deep moral objections to the service they were being conscripted for. The FBI ruling would allow no such option, and claiming that they were owed some alternative form of service in lieu of the morally objectionable labor they are requesting would just drive home that this is, effectively, a draft by the FBI for non-military reasons.

Precisely. Anyone looking for the relevant case law can look up Butler v Perry. That and subsequent case law comes from the implicit acceptance of Anglo-Saxon legal precedent, called trinoda necessitas, which requires all citizens of the state to devote unpaid time to upkeep of public byways, helping to build or maintain fortifications and to serve in a militia when called to the common defence of the nation. Since Apple's compliance with the court order would not render a public good greater than the abridgement of its right to self-determination, nor for the common use of all, and would not constitute bearing arms in conflict duly declare and prosecuted under colour of authority, the protection of the 13th amendment would prevail.
 
I explicitly mentioned the draft which I am registered for.

Constitutionally, Article I, Section 8 outlines the power to "raise and support Armies",
It also says: "but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years".

Let me know when they follow that.
 
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China has (according to credible, mainstream news reports) refrained from asking for backdoors into Apple products because the US hasn't either. It's actually rather surprising, given the country's penchant for surveillance and lack of privacy.

Playing devil's advocate:

Some news sources are not so sure that Apple hasn't given China some extra peeks at their code:

"In January 2015, the state-run newspaper People’s Daily claimed, in a tweet, that Apple had agreed to security checks by the Chinese government. This followed a piece in the Beijing News (link in Chinese) that claimed Apple acceded to audits after a meeting between Cook and China’s top internet official, Lu Wei. China’s State Internet Information Office would reportedly be allowed to perform “security checks” on all Apple products sold on the mainland. " - Quartz magazine, Apple is openly defying US security orders, but in China it takes a very different approach

Once this precedent is set, there is absolutely nothing stopping any other country in which Apple sells products from asking for exactly the same tool the FBI was provided with a court order, and that they now know exists.

There is nothing stopping any other country from asking that now. They have no need to wait for the US first, in order to make this a requirement for iPhones to be sold in their land.

China is extremely important to Apple financially, and we have little idea what concessions they've been given already.
 
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I hope you're right. I dont discount that the FBI will try to argue that these engineers are impeding a national security investigation.
Don't forget to add conspiracy and obstruction of justice charges, if a prosecutor wants to do it, they can pile it on heavy.
 
Don't forget to add conspiracy and obstruction of justice charges, if a prosecutor wants to do it, they can pile it on heavy.
So, go to jail!

People have died for these rights, it's not too much too ask.

"Obstruction of Justice" would be the FBI's middle name, if they had one.
 
It also says: "but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years".

Let me know when they follow that.
I've heard arguments that this is why there's technically a new appropriations bill annually, although obviously funds are planned far farther in advance than this. Given the way the US's standing army has been maintained for quite some time, it would obviously make a lot more sense to amend the constitution to change that rule and more accurately reflect practice if you have no intention of changing it, but for the same reason there's probably little motive to do so.

Regardless, though, questionable adherence to one clause doesn't render others moot.
 
This, of course, is the elephant that the FBI is either willfully ignoring or doesn't care about as long as they "get theirs", and why this case is so important globally and not just in the US.

China has (according to credible, mainstream news reports) refrained from asking for backdoors into Apple products because the US hasn't either. It's actually rather surprising, given the country's penchant for surveillance and lack of privacy.

Once this precedent is set, there is absolutely nothing stopping any other country in which Apple sells products from asking for exactly the same tool the FBI was provided with a court order, and that they now know exists. China, of course, will have no problem getting a court to declare any dissident or freedom-of-speech advocate a "terrorist" or whatever else they need to get a court order, and it will be just as lawful in China as the FBI's request was in the US.

And really, why shouldn't they? They have their own government standards, and if Apple is willing to do as the US government asks, why shouldn't they be given the same consideration?

So what is Apple to do when China, or Russia, or Israel, Japan, or England, or Spain, or whatever government you, personally, don't trust comes calling? Say "No, we said yes to the FBI, but screw you, you're not America"? What's to stop China (for example) from saying "oh, in that case, you can't sell your products here anymore"? For, say, Venezuela, that might be a very small loss for Apple, but China would cost them around $60B in revenue a year--almost unfathomable amounts of money.

The alternative, of course, is doing the same thing for whoever asks using whatever their internal standard of guilt is. If I were, say, a Chinese citizen who didn't like the government all that much, I'd be rather scared of the implications, and it would effectively limit what I'd be willing to do in terms of private online communication.

Why don't you just give up your own information to the FBI willingly. Why wait for Apple? You can help the FBI right now. LOL! If you think that foreign governments won't demand these same back doors and demand the same access that FBI has. Even the NSA is not publicly supporting what the FBI is trying to do. They know there is a HUGE security risk. They've already been complaining about TMI as it is...

Wow. So what's your advice to Apple (and all other corporations) when China and Russia come calling? So we've got this device your software is on and we want you to break into it: we're not interested in telling you where we got it from. We just want the information. Is it a terrorist or dissident? Remember, your dissident may be their terrorist, even if they're only protesting for human rights.

The FBI is doing more to erode human rights than any dictator could hope to do.

Uh, no, that's not how the law works.

Local law enforcement in the U.S. seeks access to information only through a lawful judicial process. If a foreign nation’s government, repressive or not, wanted information from an American company, it also would have to go through lawful processes in the U.S., either pursuant to a Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT) or what's called a letter rogatory. If the foreign government used the MLAT process, the executive branch of the federal government (DOJ) would decide whether, in its discretion, the foreign government’s request was proper. If the foreign government used a letter rogatory, a federal court would make that determination. In either case, the request could be refused if the information was sought for use in a proceeding that would violate human rights.

So take a chill pill, bros. The whole Edward Snowden incident turned the tech community into a bunch of paranoid delusional nut jobs. :rolleyes:
 
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I've heard arguments that this is why there's technically a new appropriations bill annually, although obviously funds are planned far farther in advance than this. Given the way the US's standing army has been maintained for quite some time, it would obviously make a lot more sense to amend the constitution to change that rule and more accurately reflect practice if you have no intention of changing it, but for the same reason there's probably little motive to do so.

Regardless, though, questionable adherence to one clause doesn't render others moot.
it's just an example of how we "follow" the constitution, and how utterly arbitrary it can be.

Case in point is the current SCOTUS debate. McConnell is clearly in violation of his oath. Maybe the DOJ could look into that, when they're not to busy trying to deprive the entire country of their privacy.
 
Playing devil's advocate:

Some news sources are not so sure that Apple hasn't given China some extra peeks at their code:

"In January 2015, the state-run newspaper People’s Daily claimed, in a tweet, that Apple had agreed to security checks by the Chinese government. This followed a piece in the Beijing News (link in Chinese) that claimed Apple acceded to audits after a meeting between Cook and China’s top internet official, Lu Wei. China’s State Internet Information Office would reportedly be allowed to perform “security checks” on all Apple products sold on the mainland. " - Quartz magazine, Apple is openly defying US security orders, but in China it takes a very different approach
It's a worthwhile devil's advocate to play, and this is no doubt what the FBI has been using as a PR tool in their "you did it for China" claims, but this would mean that Cook has lied in very explicit terms when he refuted these claims in the media.

It's also possible that the "security checks" mentioned involve as-shipped products, which would be no different from products provided to, say, the FTC for testing. If Apple gives the Chinese government an as-shipped product to do security testing on, that's not any kind of violation of trust or security--they're just allowing the Chinese government to do whatever tests they want on a product they make, similar to what any organization might do in the way of safety or compliance testing.

China might well do this in order to make sure that their security agencies still have a secret hack that works (like the NSA might as well), but that just means that Apple has flawed security, not that China got special access.

A security audit (based on my own experience with such things) could be the same thing; it could be looking at the practices you have internally to confirm, for example, that you're not leaving yourself open to hacks or intentional intrusion by a different government. Depending on the scope of the audit, that again wouldn't necessarily violate any kind of trust or security--it doesn't let them modify the software customers are getting.

The organization I work for has undergone exactly such things with non-government auditors for certification in the past, and they were structured such that security could be confirmed without disclosing any private data. Now, depending on level of access, the Chinese government could hypothetically try to use what they had learned from the audit to generate their own hack, but again that would just mean that Apple has a weak system, not that they were intentionally letting a government cheat around it.

If Apple is giving the Chinese government actual code, or a known route to bypass user security features, or information that they know to expose weaknesses in their system, to China, then that would be a different situation entirely.
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So take a chill pill, bro. The whole Edward Snowden incident turned the tech community into a bunch of paranoid delusional nut jobs. :rolleyes:
If you are indeed correct about requiring them to go through a US court, then that would reduce--although far from eliminate--the possibility of abuse.

However, the Snowden incident didn't turn anybody into a "paranoid nut job", it just confirmed exactly what many people long suspected was the case--that US security agencies have little respect for legal boundaries, that they have few qualms about data trawling on a staggering scale, and that they're quite willing to spy on friendly governments.

As far as this case goes--which has nothing to do with the Snowden thing, as that was the NSA, not the FBI, and even the NSA (and CIA) are basically on Apple's side in this--I'm not paranoid, I just understand how security and government back doors work in the real world.
 
If the court forces Apple to do this and Apple declines, what would be the punishment? a fine. Apple should just pay the fine.

be careful with that; the government was going to "fine" yahoo literally, I mean literally, MORE THAN THE VALUE OF THE PLANET if they didn't comply. I'm not kidding; If yahoo had held out for 1 year the fine would have been $7.9 SEXTILLION


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-could-have-fined-yahoo-trillions-of-dollars/

SO this isn't necessarily something apple can "buy" it's way out of.
 
A gun is implied in their action, and these people are nothing short of heroic for standing up for their rights in the face of this.

Yes, but "implied" or "presumably eventually" means not literally. People are generally imprisoned over this kind of thing before they face death threats from the government, so "at gunpoint" is markable as a metaphor in itself. I feel people are too quick to exaggerate using these terms. Once reason I agree Apple is heroic here is because they're carefully not exaggerating.
 
As a programmer and creative individual who is also a US citizen I find that precedent frightening and deeply disturbing. I registered for Selective Service, so I can be conscripted in time of war to use my body to fight as the government sees fit, but I did not register to have my personal creative talent conscripted by the FBI based on nothing more than a court order.
Those who have served in the military have made it known that they did NOT do all of that, just to come back to a government, that they fought for, that acts in such a fashion.

It would be a damn shame if every single Apple employee left the day they are ordered to do that, and they all coincidentally formed a new company... :D:D
Orange, Inc.!
 
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If Apple loses this round then it's on to Appeals, then Appeals en banc, then SCOTUS.
By then we will likely be into at minimum the 7S. Maybe even the 8.
I will leave you with this thought: If Apple loses every round, then all tech companies are in the same sinking boat with Apple. So what would you leave iPhones and iPads for?
Then it would come down to this: features rather than security. I would go for edge 7
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Oh, OK. It is obvious that I improperly expand your word to cover more. My fault. Sorry.
No fault of yours. I'm actually glad you would ask for clarification.
 
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