If Apple is Ordered to Unlock iPhone for FBI, Some Engineers Might Refuse to Help

[DJ Dilbert]

You have much more to fear from the terrorists. The government probably isn't going to cut your head off, kill your wife, and take your daughter as a sex slave. The government is out of control, that I agree, but worse than ISIS and other terrorist groups? No way.

Perhaps I should've explained my point more (not saying you're incorrect). This administration and other governing bodies are more of a domestic terrorist group. Using fear and misinformation to spread their terrorism. In this situation I have more to fear from them than ones from other countries, at this point only because they are here and so am I.

Now if I were over there where ISIS is ruling, my position would obviously be reversed.

 

[pooleman]

Perhaps I should've explained my point more (not saying you're incorrect). This administration and other governing bodies are more of a domestic terrorist group. Using fear and misinformation to spread their terrorism. In this situation I have more to fear from them than ones from other countries, at this point only because they are here and so am I.

Now if I were over there where ISIS is ruling, my position would obviously be reversed.

With the extremely lax immigration policies here I think ISIS may be more of a threat than you think.

 

[B2k1977]

They could take a leave of absence and work for Google, Amazon, IBM, Facebook and Twitter for a while. Brain drain.

The problem is, it's not the government, per se. It is people working in the government at this moment. It is a political decision by the executive branch, its leaders, the agencies called FBI and DoJ led by real people appointed by this current President. This is on the hands of this President quite squarely.

This is what you get when you mix a President with a Constitutional scholar and teacher, and a Community Organizer. You get malicious anti-constitutional, anti-citizen policies. Malicious economics, malicious partisan speech, malicious division of people by race, gender, income, education. All while giving speeches that overtly state the opposite is happening. We are seeing the first propaganda President that is open enough to get caught. Just like Putin always does.

Nobody has the authority or means to stop either one of them.

This is clear and convincing evidence the Federal government and particularly the individuals heading up the FBI and DoJ and the POTUS are expressly breaking the law.

Any lawyer here that can tell me the recourse for this besides voting? Criminal or civil.

cite:

https://backchannel.com/the-law-is-...-apple-rewrite-its-os-9ae60c3bbc7b#.7l487lhw3

Agreed. I will say this, the President could absolutely be stopped but Congress is too scared of being called a racist or bigot. This administration just loves that race card and it makes me sick. We don't have a problem with racism, we have a problem with our decisive president who has been stoking the flames of racism, class warfare and division for 7 years.

 

[kdarling]

What a bunch of grandstanding. As if you needed anyone special to do this.

Modifying the code to ignore the login attempt max limit and increasing login delays, is child's play, and can be done by even a novice programmer in minutes once they find the locations in the source code.

Adding a WiFi/BT keyboard entry would be the only thing that might take a day or two to write.

After that, it's just a matter of Apple using their normal methods of signing iOS and putting the device into DFU mode and updating it. Done.

--

Everyone seems to be fixated on the idea that breaking the protections is the important or difficult part. It's not. The important part is being able to sign the result. That's the real security crux, and that's something Apple already deals with every day.

Anyone at Apple right now with access to the code and keys has been able to make and sell a hacked version for years. But no one seems to worry about that. So why worry about a highly visible (by managers) version that could also be kept in house under the same security?

 

[phillipduran]

Wow, Apple is, like, so, like heroic and, like, don't tread on me, man.

What a joke.

Top notch PR from Apple, though.

I don't understand you. They could have said yes. They said no. The government ran out there in the media and said "Think about the children!"

This does happen to be great PR, because having someone stand up for your rights is pretty darn awesome. It's sad that the people who ARE SWORN to uphold our rights are the ones we're having to fight to have our rights upheld.

 

[997440]

.... They are pretty much being pushed and blackmailed into doing what the government wants or to suffer the consequences if not.

Whatever one thinks the outcome of this case should be, Apple and its legal team were aware of the potential consequences they faced, as this version of iOS was being contemplated. Apple took the risk to develop and distribute it, 'with eyes wide open', knowing that the end-product would be legally challenged through judicial or legislative means.

Regardless of the case outcome, I'm sure they've gamed out the entire scenario as far as their vision could carry them.

 

[rdowns]

It's cute that you really think that they will stop there.

Don't be ridiculous. It's just about one phone.

The US government has made numerous attempts to obtain source code from tech companies in an effort to find security flaws that could be used for surveillance or investigations.

The government has demanded source code in civil cases filed under seal but also by seeking clandestine rulings authorized under the secretive Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), a person with direct knowledge of these demands told ZDNet. We're not naming the person as they relayed information that is likely classified.

With these hearings held in secret and away from the public gaze, the person said that the tech companies hit by these demands are losing "most of the time."

When asked, a spokesperson for the Justice Dept. acknowledged that the department has demanded source code and private encryption keys before. In a recent filing against Apple, the government cited a 2013 case where it won a court order demanding that Lavabit, an encrypted email provider said to have been used by whistleblower Edward Snowden, must turn over its source code and private keys. The Justice Dept. used that same filing to imply it would, in a similar effort, demand Apple's source code and private keys in its ongoing case in an effort to compel the company's help by unlocking an iPhone used by the San Bernardino shooter.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/us-government-pushed-tech-firms-to-hand-over-source-code/

 

[geta]

Looks like iOS 9 gonna be the last safe one to use, if it will happen...

 

[pooleman]

Looks like iOS 9 gonna be the last safe one to use, if it will happen...

If you think Apple isn't already able to see all of your data then I have a Bridge in NY I'd like to sell you.

 

[B2k1977]

I'll say that I think Obama's stance on prosecuting whistleblowers is absolutely disgusting as well as the raids on pot dispensaries going up, but everything else sounds like some crap Rush Limbaugh would say with a vein popping out of his head. I think he's agreed to do some terrible things that aren't good for the country, but to say he's the worst president ever and should be impeached? Meh. He's a cog in a big machine. And he's not even the worst of it. If anything, I'd view him as a scapegoat to distract us from the real bad guys

Head of EPA and Eric Holder should be sitting right next to him in Prison....screw him and his benefit of the doubt. He sucks.

 

[JohnGrey]

This gets at a problem with this case that's nearly as big as the global privacy and security pandora's box it opens, and one I'm surprised hasn't gotten more discussion outside Apple's most recent filing:

The code in question here does not exist, and must be written by someone. It is a from-scratch construction of something that does not exist. Something that is not "brute force", but requires skill, knowledge, experience, and creativity.

Since the Supreme Court has (for better or worse) determined that corporations are "people" from a rights standpoint, then that is quite literally the FBI conscripting a "person" (in the legal sense) who has committed no crime to create something for them.

Let's pretend for a minute that iOS (or some other piece of encryption software, doesn't matter) had been created by me, and I followed all applicable laws that existed at the time when I did so. This decision would literally mean that the FBI could walk up to me because of a terrorist somewhere and order me "write code for us." It doesn't matter whether I know how to write that code at the time I start, or if I morally object to that code, or if that code might harm or ruin my business. If they can order Apple to do it, they can order me to do it.

And of course there's no limit to it being code once the precedent is set. What if it was hardware? Or an engineering design?

As a programmer and creative individual who is also a US citizen I find that precedent frightening and deeply disturbing. I registered for Selective Service, so I can be conscripted in time of war to use my body to fight as the government sees fit, but I did not register to have my personal creative talent conscripted by the FBI based on nothing more than a court order.

I'm also not aware of any legal or Constitutional precedent that allows them to do that, although it's possible I'm just ignorant on that point.

You're not an idiot, in fact there was a hard-won one amendment, the 13th, that prevents such conscription:

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Neither Apple nor its individual members can legally be conscripted or compelled to produce any non-existent work, irrespective of the promise of remuneration or its degree, without its express consent and prior to conviction of a crime. Any decision of a lower court, or even the SCOTUS, which countermands that, is not based on the rule of law but upon the threat of force, no matter how much lipstick is applied to the pig.

 

[dk001]

If it really comes down to it, Apple could take this project as a government contract, and as most government contracts go, simply stall and not get anywhere for a long time while essentially milking the government for funding of said contract and ultimately either just don't deliver or deliver something that doesn't really do what was asked or really anything at all (again, as many government projects end up being).

Chuckle
When cost over-runs reach in the neighborhood of a trillion dollars or so ... cancelled!
Maybe this is the next "short term" Apple product

 

[duffman9000]

Don't be ridiculous. It's just about one phone.



http://www.zdnet.com/article/us-government-pushed-tech-firms-to-hand-over-source-code/

That's scary. I'd love for this to be fought publically. I'd frame this as government taking private property.

 

[dk001]

EDIT:If apple lose... I'm done with iPhones and iPad or any idevices. If they ask Apple to unlock people's computer.. I would be done with Apple as well. It wouldn't be any different then iPhones and Galaxy phones or window 10 spying or broken OS X.

If Apple loses this round then it's on to Appeals, then Appeals en banc, then SCOTUS.
By then we will likely be into at minimum the 7S. Maybe even the 8.
I will leave you with this thought: If Apple loses every round, then all tech companies are in the same sinking boat with Apple. So what would you leave iPhones and iPads for?

 

[cwt1nospam]

I believe the FBI made a case about it to establish a precedent for all iPhones.

Not just all iPhones. All of everything that has a microprocessor in it.

 

[derek4484]

So sick and tired of the FBI trying to bully companies over encryption. This entire case is just about setting a legal precedent. They picked it because it had to do with terrorism and they knew the judges would give them any warrant they wanted. They cant possibly expect to uncover any new or earth shattering intelligence from the phone....the event already happened and is over with and both suspects are dead.

 

[diegogaja]

Odd. Works perfect for me. I travel extensively and it's my primary mode to stay in touch with family and friends.

Don't they already, FaceTime hasn't worked properly for 3 years.

 

[dk001]

Why can't Apple make this hacked version of iOS, and keep it offline, keep it from leaking, and only install it on this one iPhone to hack into it, extract the data, then just delete the hacked version of iOS so no one ever gets a hold of it? I'm sure there's more to it, but I don't know what. Or does the FBI actually want this version of iOS pushed onto all iPhones??

Do you remember when fingerprints and DNA was challenged in court as to the validity and accuracy? Fingerprints and DNA wasn't challenged, rather the science was initially challenged, then later the method wa challenged. Defendants brought in their experts to review, test, analyze, and interpret the claim. The process, was reviewed step by step testing each step int he process. Now replace that with GovtOS. Place the engineers on the stand. Analyze and review there code. Test the code. Test the process that was executed. During all of this, do you really think it would remain "unlocked"?
Note: this challenge of evidence is a right.
Thought: have a foreign nation-state deliberately get a person into this "Accused" scenario and they provide the experts for analysis. Now that code is global.

This scenario is not mine, rather my opinion. It is shared by many professionals from professors, to technical experts, to lawyers and law officials.
[doublepost=1458319744][/doublepost]

Congress already did, in 1994.

Section 1002.b.1 of the CALEA (Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act) specifically forbids the government to "require any specific design of equipment, facilities, services, features, or system configurations from any phone manufacturer:


(b) Limitations

(1) Design of features and systems configurations
This subchapter does not authorize any law enforcement agency or officer—

(A) to require any specific design of equipment, facilities, services, features, or system configurations to be adopted by any provider of a wire or electronic communication service, any manufacturer of telecommunications equipment, or any provider of telecommunications support services; or
(B) to prohibit the adoption of any equipment, facility, service, or feature by any provider of a wire or electronic communication service, any manufacturer of telecommunications equipment, or any provider of telecommunications support services.​

More about CALEA below:

https://www.fcc.gov/public-safety-a...ng-division/general/communications-assistance

This was passed by Congress in 1994, and trumps the All Writs Act.

BL.

That is why the FBI/DOJ has determined and stated that this doesn't apply and they are not bound by it. The FBI says that once law enforcement has a search warrant in its hand, the AWA gives a court basically unlimited power to get anyone to do whatever it wants.
[doublepost=1458320323][/doublepost]

What if Apple said it cannot be done? Who's to know they aren't lying? What if their software was that good?
I guess we would still be in the same predicament though.
Apple should put the govtos on this phone, but oops due to a bug, we wiped the phone.

No. Just the fact that Apple attempted as the behalf of the FBI and this warrant grants the FBI precedence for future requests. The ability of the FBI/DOJ to over-ride CALEA by warrant is one of the precedents being sought.
[doublepost=1458320891][/doublepost]

Those employees are acting like cowards. The reason the government wants this piece of software is to investigate a terrorist shooting where 14 innocent civilians were murdered in cold blood, not to snoop on every iPhone on the planet. ....

If that is in fact your belief you are entitled to it. No matter how narrow focused or short sighted that opinion is.
Based on the thoughts in some of your posts, you appear to be at minimum moderately intelligent. You posted inability to look beyond the immediate (even after the originators of the warrant filing admitted to it) is either phenomenal or deliberate. Either way, enjoy.
[doublepost=1458321418][/doublepost]

Apple is not a telecommunication company.

No, however they are a phone manufacturer at minimum.

 

[tgara]

If that is in fact your belief you are entitled to it. No matter how narrow focused or short sighted that opinion is.
Based on the thoughts in some of your posts, you appear to be at minimum moderately intelligent. You posted inability to look beyond the immediate (even after the originators of the warrant filing admitted to it) is either phenomenal or deliberate. Either way, enjoy.

I think your views and opinions on this matter are clouded by delusions, paranoia, and clinically unhealthy obsession with Edward Snowden. I wouldn't be surprised if you called him a hero. If I were you, I'd get off the grid right now before the black helicopters find you.

 

[dk001]

What a bunch of grandstanding. As if you needed anyone special to do this.

Modifying the code to ignore the login attempt max limit and increasing login delays, is child's play, and can be done by even a novice programmer in minutes once they find the locations in the source code.

Adding a WiFi/BT keyboard entry would be the only thing that might take a day or two to write.

After that, it's just a matter of Apple using their normal methods of signing iOS and putting the device into DFU mode and updating it. Done.

--

Everyone seems to be fixated on the idea that breaking the protections is the important or difficult part. It's not. The important part is being able to sign the result. That's the real security crux, and that's something Apple already deals with every day.

Anyone at Apple right now with access to the code and keys has been able to make and sell a hacked version for years. But no one seems to worry about that. So why worry about a highly visible (by managers) version that could also be kept in house under the same security?

Not disagreeing with your opinion. rather feel it is incomplete.
First, the FBI/DOJ has to prove this warrant request is not a violation of the 1st Amendment, the 5th Amendment, and CALEA, then we can get into your thought area. That will be a serious hurdle IMO.

 

[AdonisSMU]

I think your views and opinions on this matter are clouded by delusions, paranoia, and clinically unhealthy obsession with Edward Snowden. I wouldn't be surprised if you called him a hero. If I were you, I'd get off the grid right now before the black helicopters find you.

Why don't you just give up your own information to the FBI willingly. Why wait for Apple? You can help the FBI right now. LOL! If you think that foreign governments won't demand these same back doors and demand the same access that FBI has. Even the NSA is not publicly supporting what the FBI is trying to do. They know there is a HUGE security risk. They've already been complaining about TMI as it is...

 

[Makosuke]

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Neither Apple nor its individual members can legally be conscripted or compelled to produce any non-existent work, irrespective of the promise of remuneration or its degree, without its express consent and prior to conviction of a crime. Any decision of a lower court, or even the SCOTUS, which countermands that, is not based on the rule of law but upon the threat of force, no matter how much lipstick is applied to the pig.

I hadn't thought about the 13th Amendment being applied that way since I'd forgotten about the involuntary servitude clause, but you're absolutely right, it would be pretty tough to argue that conscripting someone not convicted of a crime to perform labor for the government involuntarily is anything but unconstitutional.

Now, if the current legal precedent that corporations are considered "people" in terms of constitutional rights were to be changed, it would be a different situation, since constitutional protections against involuntary servitude might not apply to corporations.

If they tried to conscript an individual programmer or engineer, it definitely would, but as long as the court order was only to a corporation and not an individual, one could argue that a different set of rules applies to corporations.

None of which, of course, would negate the far-reaching search-and-seizure issues, self-incrimination issues, basic human rights issues, and terrible global example this case would be.

 

[bradl]

You're not an idiot, in fact there was a hard-won one amendment, the 13th, that prevents such conscription:

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Neither Apple nor its individual members can legally be conscripted or compelled to produce any non-existent work, irrespective of the promise of remuneration or its degree, without its express consent and prior to conviction of a crime. Any decision of a lower court, or even the SCOTUS, which countermands that, is not based on the rule of law but upon the threat of force, no matter how much lipstick is applied to the pig.

I hadn't thought about the 13th Amendment being applied that way since I'd forgotten about the involuntary servitude clause, but you're absolutely right, it would be pretty tough to argue that conscripting someone not convicted of a crime to perform labor for the government involuntarily is anything but unconstitutional.

Now, if the current legal precedent that corporations are considered "people" in terms of constitutional rights were to be changed, it would be a different situation, since constitutional protections against involuntary servitude might not apply to corporations.

If they tried to conscript an individual programmer or engineer, it definitely would, but as long as the court order was only to a corporation and not an individual, one could argue that a different set of rules applies to corporations.

None of which, of course, would negate the far-reaching search-and-seizure issues, self-incrimination issues, basic human rights issues, and terrible global example this case would be.

A very interesting take on this indeed. When you look at the incident on the whole (the shootings in San Bernardino), the crime has already been committed, and while there won't be any trial (the perpetrators are deceased), there basically wouldn't be any obstructed justice to charge the iOS developers with to get a trial and conviction. Because of this, the 13th would apply, which the government would need to bring up charges on the developers.

You'd think that the FBI and their attorneys would try to cover all bases with this (as far as compelling the developers/Apple goes), but there's so many technicalities to get around this that it would be difficult to force or compel them to do this.

BL.

 

[cwt1nospam]

I think your views and opinions on this matter are clouded by delusions, paranoia, and clinically unhealthy obsession with Edward Snowden. I wouldn't be surprised if you called him a hero. If I were you, I'd get off the grid right now before the black helicopters find you.

Wow. So what's your advice to Apple (and all other corporations) when China and Russia come calling? So we've got this device your software is on and we want you to break into it: we're not interested in telling you where we got it from. We just want the information. Is it a terrorist or dissident? Remember, your dissident may be their terrorist, even if they're only protesting for human rights.

The FBI is doing more to erode human rights than any dictator could hope to do.

 

[Larry-K]

It was the Land of the Free but now it is turning more into a land that is run by communists. Apple is praying Trump does not get elected. He is bad news for Apple. Hopefully no one here votes for him. Better not vote then vote if worse comes to worst

Communists?

Good luck on finding one of those, we're going for fascists these days.