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All I am saying is that it has taken Apple 2 years and rumors about 2018 are just rumors. I am on board with it though. The design is simple on the new MacBook pros. SD card slot would have been better and removing MagSafe wasn’t great. They look great and I am sure they work great. I just cannot get myself to buy one because of the stupid touch bar and the price rise. More because of the price rise as I don’t intend to make money of mine. Too expensive for personal photography and development projects.

I do agree, the price rises of their iPhones and MacBooks has gotten outrageous.
I sent the iPhone X back as the £1000 price tag was unjustifiable.

I also admit an SD card slot would be welcomed but I can just transfer photos via USB-C cable so its no big deal.
I also miss Magsafe a little but it's a compromise I can live with to go to an all USB-C setup (well almost, aside from my AirPods and iPhone).
I just wish more new cars came with USB-C instead of USB-A. It's an awesome connector.
 
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I do agree, the price rises of their iPhones and MacBooks has gotten outrageous.
I sent the iPhone X back as the £1000 price tag was unjustifiable.

I also admit an SD card slot would be welcomed but I can just transfer photos via USB-C cable so its no big deal.
I also miss Magsafe a little but it's a compromise I can live with to go to an all USB-C setup (well almost, aside from my AirPods and iPhone).
I just wish more new cars came with USB-C instead of USB-A. It's an awesome connector.

USB-C is an awesome connector, agreed.

Your sig says you have a retina MacBook m3. Which year? Is that your sole computer? How is your experience with it and what are you using it for?
 
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The keys of the new 2018 MacBook Pro, which uses a third-generation butterfly keyboard, appear to be cocooned in a "thin, silicone barrier" according to a teardown that's underway over at iFixit.

According to iFixit, the quieter typing Apple has been advertising in the 2018 MacBook Pro models is a side effect of the new membrane, which the site believes is actually an "ingress-proofing measure" to prevent the butterfly keys from seizing up when exposed to dust and other small particulates.

ifixitbutterflykeyboardteardown.jpg

To back up its claim, iFixit points towards a patent for the technology Apple may be using in the third-generation butterfly keyboard, which describes a "guard structure" that keeps direct contaminants away from the movement mechanism.

iFixit does warn, however, that while the silicone barrier is clearly in place, there's no way to definitively prove that it's a reliability fix rather than just a sound damping measure, citing statements from Apple to The Verge that have said the new keyboard design wasn't introduced to "solve [dust] issues." Apple also told The Verge and other sites that the issue in question has only impacted a small number of customers.

iFixit speculates that Apple is avoiding sharing the complete reasoning behind the keyboard redesign because of the class action lawsuits that it's currently facing over faulty 2016/2017 MacBook Pro keyboards. Since Apple unveiled the 2018 MacBook Pro with its third-generation butterfly keyboard, there have been questions about whether specific changes were made to address keyboard failure issues present in 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro models.

Apple has been vague when answering questions about the way the quieter keys were implemented and if those changes also impact durability and reliability, but iFixit's teardown offers hope for customers who have been waiting for Apple to fix the keyboard problems affecting older MacBook Pro models.

Some 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro owners have experienced issues with sticky, unresponsive, or repeating keys, leading to significant public outcry that eventually pushed Apple to launch a free repair program for those machines. As a result of the attention given to the issue, some customers have been wary about purchasing a new MacBook Pro because of possible future problems.

Future failure rates and anecdotal reports may be the only way to determine the true purpose behind the silicone barrier added to the keys, as Apple's marketing materials insist the change has been introduced to allow for a quieter typing experience, addressing an issue that few people seemed to have had with the 2016/2017 keyboard.

Earlier today, TechCrunch shared a video demonstrating the typing sound of the new 2018 MacBook Pro compared to an earlier MacBook Pro model, confirming that it is indeed quieter as Apple says. Multiple hands-on reports have also said there's a noticeable difference between the sound of the new MacBook Pro and older models.

iFixit plans to continue on with its teardown next week and may have more information to share, but given the interest in the third-generation butterfly keyboard, the site didn't want to wait to highlight potential good news.

Article Link: iFixit Teardown Suggests 2018 MacBook Pro Keys Feature a Silicone Barrier to Prevent Malfunctions Due to Dust
Some people wondered why Chevrolet took as long as it did to fix the ignition lock cylinder issue, and part of it was that fixing it could be seen in a court of law as an admission of guilt. So they had to find a way simultaneously to fix it and not fix it. People whined and complained about GM murdering their parents, kids, etc., to save fifty cents, or whatever, which shows a complete and total misunderstanding of the actual situation and all its nuance. It was never about the part costing 50 cents (or whatever it actually was, I forget the number, but it was trivially small...) it was that if they made the change, because one time in a billion it could fail, how could they not then also make changes to every other system, subsystem, subassembly, or part, that had a similar failure rate? How could they justify to their shareholders spending that pittance, (which grows to be far larger than a pittance when multiplied by the number of units in the field in active use, etc.,) and not also upgrading every other part that exhibits a similar degree of reliability (or rather, unreliability)? They’re allowed to lie in ads. They’re even allowed to lie in court, if they manage to lie in a way that’s impossible to prove it was actually a lie. They cannot. Lie. To their shareholders. Money is involved, and they will get to the bottom of each and every thing told to them... that’s the one place where if you lie, you’re going to get caught, and when caught, you’re screwed.

Apple was in a similar situation. Though users and passengers die far less frequently to a key ceasing to work, than the ignition unexpectedly switching off and the keys falling out, especially when it happens during travel, at highway speeds, and quite possibly during some kind of panicked maneuver, the cost to shareholders is the same either way. Case A, they make as much money as they possibly can as their ROI, return on investment, and cases B through ZZZ, they make less. For Tim Cook and all his little elves to keep their jobs, they have to walk a thin line and try to get their company, Apple, to stay solidly in the Case A zone.

All decisions Apple makes are made with this consideration in mind. Firmly in mind. That’s why they came out with these new “quieter” keyboards that just so HAPPEN around be more resistant to dust-ogenic failure, and released them not as they usually do, with massive fanfare, during a WWDC or “educational event,” but quietly, seemingly at random, conveniently, and also coincidentally as soon as the revised version was tested and ready to go,) to mitigate the total damages not counting on DUSTBIN existing in the real world, as apparently they did when they released the... what turned out to be not-ready-for-prime-time butterfly keyboard MacBooks.

Maybe I’m wrong... hahaha... no, just kidding. I’m not wrong on this one. Pretty confident.
 
...Seriously, what?

What does that have to do with my question, your platitude?

I’m wondering if people think the silicone is for acoustics or reduce product failures or both

If you have the ability to think for yourself and logically, you would come to the obvious conclusion.

Do you really think the ONLY reason they would waste money on putting silicone on EACH INDIVIDUAL KEY, is for a slight reduction in sound?

My statement was to point out how glaringly obvious the answer is.
 
I think IFIXIT wording of "cover up" was really on the silicone butterfly mech cover! Apple is in a difficult place here as they can't come out and say this repairs the issue as that would cost them 10 of millions is costs replacing every MacBook Pro keyboard with the better designed unit. So they have to walk a very narrow path. Frankly, this is still not a fully dust proof cover from the looks of it.

As for IFIXIT: Who is looking our for your interests in your gears repairability? Our government over sight has failed to protect the consumer! Many of the protections we once had are either being watered down or shut down. You don't need to look that far! FTC & FCC are no longer protecting us! Even the EPA has been muzzled.

Apple is already making it harder to get your system repaired at a realistic cost. Their design is to make the system throw-a-way! Are you really to toss the 3 or 4k you payed after a small issue!

iFixit is a terrible company that pays YouTubers to FUD Apple's AASP's with lies and deceipt, like Linus Tech Tips.

Also, their components are counterfeit and their tools prices are ridiculous.
 
This refresh scored 60% (3 out of 5) for me. Was hoping that Apple would increase the display resolution and lower the price, neither of those things happened. The Touch Bar MacBook Pros remain overpriced with a display resolution from six years ago.

I ordered one, despite the price and the annoying ports issue (I work with a lot of USB A equipment that costs >> than Mac Pro money - also business travel), as I really needed to upgrade to 16GB from my 8GB 2013 model. But I really dont understand how display res increase would be necessary (or even visible) for anyone on a 13" screen... is scaled 1650x1080 that bad? (I run at 1280x800 because at my age my eyes are bad)
 
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This is when we miss Steve. He would never allow this keyboard blunder to happen.

Remember iPhone 4? Remember the distribution of free bumpers? Know why? That was Steve. Things like this can happen anytime and with any company and CEO. They test their products, but no-one knows all the factors that can make a perfectly working product go wrong out in the world. In the case of these keyboards, it seems to be less Apple, than the factories and quality of some part therein perhaps, not being up to spec. That it has cost Apple is another matter.
 
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It's awfully fishy, though, that this was filed in Sept of 2016 and specifically suited towards keeping contaminants out of the apertures. Presumably, they were releasing a product that they knew would let stuff in there, until they could implement this patent (at some point)...You have a point, though, that we don't know for sure and a lot of assumptions are being made...some seem more likely than others based on circumstantial evidence. If the patent had said the membrane would dampen noise, and that explanation had been filed back in 2016, then that might be a different story.

Think about what you just suggested as a reasonable explanation. Apple, who is all about customer experience to get people to pay a premium, decided that rather than wait to introduce the new model, they would go ahead with a defective product so people would have a negative experience and it would cost Apple much more to repair???
 
There are Windows laptops thinner than the MB/MBP.

Not the point. With Windows one can choose what mix of form or function works best. With the Mac all get are cute looking thin toys, that do work for a lot of non-critical usages, but fail if you need any computing power over time.
 
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I was going to replace my gf’s 6s screen, which is cracked. By the time I priced the screen and the tools, it was $40 cheaper just to go to the local mobile repair place and have them do it.

I can't stand them and their "holier than tho" attitude with the "right to repair".
 
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Actually, Apple should go back to the chiclet mechanism of the Magic Keyboard 2. It's way better than the one on the retina MBPs.

This.

That is the perfect keyboard to me.

That said I don't really mind the butterfly keyboard on my 12" MacBook at all.

My wife prefers the new butterfly keyboards and she types at light speed on the 2016 13" Pro. I'm a pretty slow typist.
 
Uh, no. Because it's not. Next question.

People wanted:

Old keyboard system (even ignoring the reliability problem, the new keyboards feel gross to type on. the new ones are still super loud, too.)

The old, smaller trackpad (new one is too big - lots of accidental input)

Ports - USB-C is great, but 20 years of legacy won't vanish overnight. Having the ability to hook up my stuff without dongles is essential

The stupid ****ing touch bar to go away - Transitioning from typing on keys to touching glass mid-sentence is just gross.

A resolution bump - the 15" MBPR still has the reduced effective resolution of the original Retina MacBook Pro.

Core count bump - delivered

32GB of ram - delivered

Pricing reduced to 2015 levels - nope, a semi-decent largely base 15" config is still well over $3000. A bit much for a fairly terrible laptop.

Fine. Form your own computer company and put out those models. You will put out something quite ugly, or at least, old-fashioned, and 2% of techies will say, "Hurrah!" Actually, given the sales of these machines, "people" don't want your 2012 revisited. I prefer the new keyboards. The old ones had too much travel. Bad for typists. Carpal tunnel syndrome.
 
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Fine. Form your own computer company and put out those models. You will put out something quite ugly, or at least, old-fashioned, and 2% of techies will say, "Hurrah!" Actually, given the sales of these machines, "people" don't want your 2012 revisited. I prefer the new keyboards. The old ones had too much travel. Bad for typists. Carpal tunnel syndrome.

Actually, there are several computer companies that build and sell quite a few computers that meet the criteria of better keyboards, smaller trackpads, USB-A and USB-C ports on the same machine, a touch SCREEN instead of a touch BAR, and 32 GB (or more) of RAM.

Other computer companies offer their customers options. With the Mac, by contrast, you are forced to either "pay for pretty" or get out.

Honestly, I don't Mac is Apple's top priority anymore. I'm glad they made improvements, though.
 
This is when we miss Steve. He would never allow this keyboard blunder to happen.

WOW!

It's pretty clear that Jobs's RDF is alive and well even though he isn't!

Let the many counter examples -- of where Steve Jobs blundered -- now get listed!

1. Antenna-gate.

2. The Cube.

3. Mobile Me.

4.

5.

6.

7.



See https://hbr.org/2013/01/five-of-steve-jobss-biggest-mi

...

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2012/sep/24/apple-maps-problems-list



http://www.applematters.com/article/steve-jobs-5-biggest-mistakes/

 
It's awfully fishy, though, that this was filed in Sept of 2016 and specifically suited towards keeping contaminants out of the apertures. Presumably, they were releasing a product that they knew would let stuff in there, until they could implement this patent (at some point)...You have a point, though, that we don't know for sure and a lot of assumptions are being made...some seem more likely than others based on circumstantial evidence. If the patent had said the membrane would dampen noise, and that explanation had been filed back in 2016, then that might be a different story.
OK even if we assume this filed patent was a result of issues and not something Apple was working on anyway we still have no hard evidence that Apple was Macs they knew had faulty keyboards. We still don’t know exactly what the problem was or when Apple engineers figured out what the problem was and how to fix it.
 
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Hmm... I'll wait for their finished thoughts, but this makes me a little more interested. I'll wait a few months though, as that's when the keyboards start to fail.

I'm sure the fanboys will still insist that the 2016/2017 keyboards are fine despite the growing amount of evidence that Apple is covering up their keyboard disaster.

I hope they've fixed it once and for all. However I think I'm going to wait 6 - 12 months and see what happens to the early adopters of the 2018 keyboard. Thanks to them for gambling their thousands of dollars so I don't have to gamble mine.

I am glad Apple did something; I just don't know what the effect will be, so I will happily bide my time for the next 6-12 months while I monitor the new keyboard design.

In the mean time, I must resist those Lenovo X1 Carbons....
 
... Here is the relevant federal rule:

Federal Rules of Evidence, No. 407: When measures are taken that would have made an earlier injury or harm less likely to occur, evidence of the subsequent measures is not admissible to prove: negligence; culpable conduct; a defect in a product or its design . . . .

an interesting and important post in this thread.
many thanks for this.
 
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Didn’t some forum users said that the keyboard issues could also be caused by heat? It seems that certain keys such as the b has higher chance of failure?
 
Think about what you just suggested as a reasonable explanation. Apple, who is all about customer experience to get people to pay a premium, decided that rather than wait to introduce the new model, they would go ahead with a defective product so people would have a negative experience and it would cost Apple much more to repair???

Apple's dealing in such quantity....perhaps to them the failure rate is acceptable. Maybe the premium they charge for the product makes up for issues such as the keyboard repair program. Like Rogifan pointed out, I don't know...no one but Apple does. But, it's not outside the realm of possibility...further, Apple used to be all about customer experience to get people to pay a premium...now people will just pay a premium. Even when people do have a negative experience, there are plenty of others that will still observe that the issues like that of the keyboard haven't bothered them...they love it...As you can see in these forums. I think service at Apple stores that blew everyone's mind is a thing of the past, though. I'm not saying they're horrible...I'm just saying it's not like it used to be. But, that's just my impression.
 
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Quite true, coming to think of it. The world as a whole has somehow gotten angrier.
[doublepost=1531591106][/doublepost]

I have a 13" 2016 and I am now wondering if the trackpad on the 15" is larger? I think they would be the same size, or is Apple actually making two different sized trackpads !
Yes the trackpad on the 15” is larger than the 13” one. But even the 13” is now larger than the old trackpads.
 
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We will be unable to answer as Apple missed our corporate refresh cycle, admittedly faster than normal due to the issues with the late 2016 MBP. The noise and typing issues for us meant that WinTel was back, via the XPS, for the first time in 15 years. . . .

I do hope the new iteration fixes the faulty keyboard, the incredibly loud typing. Just wish something had been done about the trackpad.

Curious if there were any reasons to go with the XPS line over a Lenovo T- or X -series?
 
Probably the keyboard membrane slapping around making bass.
Nothing better than the Pamela Anderson of keyboards.
Has anyone grabbed a hand full of keyboard yet to see if it feels firm and real?


May not be but I do know there is a better sound and more bass compared to the last two models.
 
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WOW!

It's pretty clear that Jobs's RDF is alive and well even though he isn't!

Let the many counter examples -- of where Steve Jobs blundered -- now get listed!

1. Antenna-gate.

2. The Cube.

3. Mobile Me.

4.

5.

6.

7.



See https://hbr.org/2013/01/five-of-steve-jobss-biggest-mi

...

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2012/sep/24/apple-maps-problems-list



http://www.applematters.com/article/steve-jobs-5-biggest-mistakes/

Thing is, he wouldn't blunder and then pretend he didn't.
 
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