I'm furious at PayPal

Moof1904

macrumors 65816
Original poster
May 20, 2004
1,023
28
and an eBay store vendor I bought something from recently.

I bought a Jawbone headset from an ebay store last month and paid for the shipping insurance. The shipper didn't purchase insurance for the package, instead obtaining the less expensive "Delivery Confirmation" from the U.S. postal service. The Delivery Confirmation is merely a barcode scan when the package is left somewhere, it has no signature confirmation or address confirmation. All it shows is "delivered, city, state."

For some reason, the package never made it to my door. Either it was delivered to the wrong address, dropped on my porch and stolen, or whatever. Because the shipper has a delivery confirmation, though, they refuse to do anything further. And because of this same, useless, delivery confirmation, PayPal refused my claim for the lost package, even though the shipper did not provide the insurance that he charged me for. Had the shipper purchased insurance, the package would have required a signature and real proof of delivery to a specific address, not just to a city and state.

So, I'm screwed out of $100 because the shipper didn't purchase the insurance he charged me for and PayPal sided with the shipper and closed the claim.

Grrrrrr.
 

koobcamuk

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2006
3,191
9
I lost the equivalent of $600 about 4 years ago. Really cut up about it - had to get over it though.

Unlucky dude.
 

Moof1904

macrumors 65816
Original poster
May 20, 2004
1,023
28
Any chance that you used a credit card through PayPal for this?
No, I used funds I had sitting in my PayPal account.

I can see if the shipper did everything and the package was lost, but the dudes didn't purchase insurance for it after charging me for insurance. Wankers.
 

Kaiser Phoenix

macrumors 6502
May 12, 2005
359
0
London
I once sold a Sony PSP and had it delivered FULL tracking, insurance and everythiing.

1 month later, the guy used a Credit back thing and told paypal his credit card was stolen, Paypal just withdrew the funds from my account!!!!!

I lost a PSP for nothing.

I swear sometimes i feel like paypal is just a big scam.
 

Britanium

macrumors member
Mar 9, 2007
73
0
No, I used funds I had sitting in my PayPal account.

I can see if the shipper did everything and the package was lost, but the dudes didn't purchase insurance for it after charging me for insurance. Wankers.
How about this angle then: Your purchase was for an insured item, but the seller didn't send you an insured item, they sent you an uninsured item. Isn't that sellers fraud? (or something like that?) Bait & Switch perhaps?

(analogy - buying a mid-range MB, w/superdrive, and receiving low end MB, w/o/superdrive -- meaning, the insurance was part of the purchase, but was not delivered)

just my thoughts...
 

I'm a ROb

macrumors member
Aug 14, 2007
70
3
Netherlands
How about this angle then: Your purchase was for an insured item, but the seller didn't send you an insured item, they sent you an uninsured item. Isn't that sellers fraud? (or something like that?) Bait & Switch perhaps?
/QUOTE]

I was thinking the same thing. You ordered an insured item [not a delivery confirmation item], but that is not what the other guy sent you. Would that help? I guess it would be ok if you actually got the thing, but in this case...

You could check what paypal's agreement states or perhaps find some legal advice.


note: just my thoughts. I haven't sold or bought anything from ebay and I don't have a PayPal account either
 

Sayer

macrumors 6502a
Jan 4, 2002
981
0
Austin, TX
Thats what you get for trying to be a cheap-o and buy used/stolen/gray market junk off eBay.

eBay facilitates the scammers getting to their marks more than paypal.
 

iliketomac

macrumors member
Nov 22, 2006
92
0
Paypal is greedy. I hate them for freezing my funds due to their stupid automated random security methods. I buy and sell honestly on ebay for years and Paypal is simply the worst when it comes to customer service and very unfair policies. They are the judge, jury, and executioner and you literally become helpless.
 

mward333

macrumors 6502a
Jan 24, 2004
526
5
I understand your heartache. I'm really sorry to hear that.

I also had heartache one time from an Internet transaction.

Now I only use craigslist, and I only accept cash for my sales. I rarely buy anything used on the Internet anymore. I just sell stuff on craigslist from time to time.

Sorry to hear about your troubles! That's my advice, as someone who had a similar experience to yours.
 

AlexisV

macrumors 68000
Mar 12, 2007
1,602
95
Manchester, UK
I don't know the situation in America, but in the UK the next course of action would be small claims court, which can all be done online. You submit your evidence, and the defendent eiither acknowledges or ignores. If they ignore then you win by default and send round the bailiffs, and if they defend, then you get your day in court.

Pay Pal is a law unto itself though. There are plenty of horror stories of them freezing accounts for no good reason. You can take Pay Pal to court just like an individual here, and I've never heard them defend a small claims case yet.

It must be pretty satisfying sending round the bailiffs to Pay Pal HQ :)

The $600 mentioned before is also a pretty big sum to have to get over :mad:
 

mkrishnan

Moderator emeritus
Jan 9, 2004
29,641
12
Grand Rapids, MI, USA
Did you get a finalized answer from PayPal or can you continue to escalate it with them? If not as a lost product as a violation of terms / product not as ordered (because the insurance was purchased and not provided)?
 

Moof1904

macrumors 65816
Original poster
May 20, 2004
1,023
28
As far as I can tell, PayPal's decision is final. There seems to be no way to escalate it further. In examining my claim, the "claim expert" made no effort to understand the facts of the dispute. I'm stunned that they would side with the seller when the seller charged for insurance and didn't provide it and the item was lost.
 

thegrifman

macrumors regular
Nov 8, 2006
161
1
Kennesaw, GA
I sold something on eBay once and the guy sent the payment to the wrong paypal address and then never responded to any of my e-mails. After a few days I left negative feedback and he actually blamed the whole thing on me. I guess that doesn't really count as a paypal problem though :)
 

KidDynamite

macrumors newbie
Aug 28, 2007
3
0
As far as I can tell, PayPal's decision is final. There seems to be no way to escalate it further. In examining my claim, the "claim expert" made no effort to understand the facts of the dispute. I'm stunned that they would side with the seller when the seller charged for insurance and didn't provide it and the item was lost.

About a year ago I had a similar situation. Bought something on ebay, and the seller used delivery confirmation instead of insurance. I pointed out to Paypal that the delivery confirmation showed that the package was delivered to an address in California, and I live in Indiana. Either the seller was lying and providing a false confirmation from some other package they shipped, or they really messed up my address. Either way, not my fault, and they should refund my money. Paypal sided with the seller and closed the claim. I was FURIOUS. I couldn't find any apparant way to escalate the claim further either, so I just fired off an angry email to their regular customer service address, and the funds were back in my account in less than two hours. I've heard enough horror stories about Paypal to know that my experience is the exception rather than the rule, but it's worth a shot.
 

Consultant

macrumors G5
Jun 27, 2007
13,286
14
I use craigslist.

craigslist.org

transactions cash only, in person only,
contact via phone, email (paper trail)

Selling: watch out for fake bills
Buying: test everything
 

mkrishnan

Moderator emeritus
Jan 9, 2004
29,641
12
Grand Rapids, MI, USA
I couldn't find any apparant way to escalate the claim further either, so I just fired off an angry email to their regular customer service address, and the funds were back in my account in less than two hours.
Better if it's a polite and not angry letter, but... ;) You should absolutely do this also, Moof. If you can't escalate it in the claims process, escalate it with customer service. Keep pressing them. I think it's worth it for, if nothing else, the fact that we have to fight back from eBay and PayPal becoming solely a venue for scamming.

Escalate by contacting the eBay customer service team, too. You might end up getting different people through eBay and PayPal. Get as many people as you can involved at the company. Keep making noise.

I've done plenty of good business on eBay, and I need it. If you don't live in certain metro areas, Craigslist and local sales are not necessarily an option. They work fine for people who live in NYC or San Fran and can communicate with millions of people in their locale, but that isn't true for many Americans (and others) who benefit from having sources like eBay, as long as they can be trusted. Right now, the best you can get is that you are extremely careful and most of the time things go okay. eBay can and should do better than that....
 

nateDEEZY

macrumors 6502a
Jan 24, 2007
696
0
San Francisco, CA
I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I've had good and bad experience's with paypal as a buyer and a seller. I've been scammed out of $500 dollars in the past, took some time to get over it but I eventually did. Recentely I just got refunded $100 because of a fradulent seller.

It's really hard to find a balance between buyer and seller protection.
 

Sdashiki

macrumors 68040
Aug 11, 2005
3,512
8
Behind the lens
Been using PP for 8 years now, never once had a single problem.

I dont buy things on eBay from jerks I guess.

There are two kinds of sellers, those who are normal folk selling, and those who are a business.

I try to stay with the latter and only go with the former after firing off an email and waiting for a response.

You can tell right away how communicative a seller will be and how adamant they are about keeping 100% positive feedback.

Just last week a guy said he would allow me to use my FedEx accnt to ship the package, saving him the hassle and me a few dollars. he didnt accept PP so I sent a money order. And I constantly kept emailing him, sometimes he never wrote back so I got wary. But with 100% feedback I wasnt too worried. Finally he emails me saying its sent, and the contents of the envelope with the MO had instructions on emailing me for the FedEx label. He sent it out on his own dime! Now thats a real seller.

Live n learn is all I can offer for solace.
 

andiwm2003

macrumors 601
Mar 29, 2004
4,333
384
Boston, MA
i think paypal is just a class action suit waiting to happen.

i use paypal on the web to keep my credit card info away from sellers. and i shop on ebay for max $100. that's the most i want to risk. if i want something more expensive i use either large ebay shops (did that only once) or buy online from reputable retailers with brick and mortar shops. the bad policies of ebay and paypal reduce my shopping by 90%.

ebay has degraded to a scam site and paypal doesn't help at all.
 

The Stig

macrumors 6502a
Nov 4, 2006
675
0
On the track
No, I used funds I had sitting in my PayPal account.

I can see if the shipper did everything and the package was lost, but the dudes didn't purchase insurance for it after charging me for insurance. Wankers.
The shipper did not live up to his end of the deal as promised. You can take legal action against him personally in small claims court.

The Stig