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Wiki entry on Susan Kare, from the original Mac team: "Susan Kare is an American artist and graphic designer ... She graduated summa cum laude with a B.A. in art from Mount Holyoke College ... She received an M.A. and a Ph.D. in fine arts from New York University in 1978 ..."

The point is, what macOS needs isn't software engineers but artists. Apple needs people who understand balance, contrast, color, texture and other principles of art and graphic design.
Excellent point. It doesn't take much graphic artist-type talent to make flat design. And that partially explains why skeuomorphism (which is what Susan Kare's designs were) is user-friendly and intuitive whereas flat design is user-unfriendly and unintuitive. It also explains why skeuomorphism is thoughtful whereas flat design is dull. Apple has been using flat design since 2013-present. Apple has used three different variations of flat design: regular flat design, followed by neuomorphism, followed by glassmorphism (aka Liquid Glass).

Apple needs to return to skeuomorphism. They can start with rehiring Scott Forstall and bringing back all of the exact same skeuomorpic designs used in iOS 6 and Mac OS X Mountain Lion, but with increased resolution for today's higher-resoultion screens, while adding new iOS 6-style and Mac OS X Mountain Lion-style graphics for everthing that did not exist when those were released.
 
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… bringing back all of the exact same skeuomorpic designs used in iOS 6 and Mac OS X Mountain Lion, but with increased resolution for today's higher-resoultion screens, while adding new iOS 6-style and Mac OS X Mountain Lion-style graphics for everthing that did not exist when when those were released.
This is the irony for me: they continue to release greater and greater quality screens, but then design an interface that does it no justice.
 
This was 2009, Apple switched to Intel in 2006.
The Intel transition had been several years passed by then.
It just so happens that the first several versions of snow leopard were extremely buggy, and all you have to do is look at apples archived release notes for the first several updates to it to see that.
Or just read this excellent article made a couple years ago…

Apple had an absolute ton of UI inconsistencies, bugs, broken features with updates, rough X.0 launches (iPhone OS 2.0 was especially a big mess) back in the day.
It’s just simply that people don’t remember that, because nostalgia allows the struggles, bugs, glitches, and inconsistencies to be forgotten to time.
I remember iOS 4 on my iPod touch, I remember just how fast and fluid and light it felt, how simple compared to today’s operating systems it was.
But the second I actually think about it critically I also remember that… I had to force restart that iPod touch at least twice a day, and holding the home button to force quit an application was pretty much an occurrence every couple hours. Plus the battery life on that thing makes an iPhone 12 Mini look like a 17 Pro Max in comparison.
I lived through all that as well on the Mac side only.

With Snow Leopard, it was rough for the first 3 updates for sure but I also remember that Snow Leopard re-wrote the Finder which was a huge undertaking. I am surprised that there were not more bugs with such major re-writing going on for the main parts of an OS. I waited until 10.6.2 before upgrading the MacBook Pro and then got the Mac Pro to replace the iMac G5. It started at 10.6.3 and stayed on 10.6.8 until 10.9 came out. That was the first Mac OS upgrade many pros moved to, from Snow Leopard and I followed. Had Mountain Lion on the laptop. No one wanted to leave 10.6.8! I so remember that one. Shake 4 was also supported under 10.9 so all the pro apps worked still which was not the case after that.

Until Lion came out, I always upgraded very new version of Mac OS X as soon as I could. The yearly upgrade and then free, after that, really slowed the excitement level and willingness to install an OS that could have lots of bugs. Every two or so years was fun, every year major upgrades that started to slow things down and cause needed apps to stop working, grew tiring. Software and third party hardware started to get left behind because of all the changes every year and that also took its toll. I prefer slower large upgrades than every year ones. And looking back... still do.
 
Excellent point. It doesn't take much graphic artist-type talent to make flat design. And that partially explains why skeuomorphism (which is what Susan Kare's designs were) is user-friendly and intuitive whereas flat design is user-unfriendly and unintuitive. It also explains why skeuomorphism is thoughtful whereas flat design is dull. Apple has been using flat design since 2013-present. Apple has used three different variations of flat design: regular flat design, followed by neuomorphism, followed by glassmorphism (aka Liquid Glass).

Apple needs to return to skeuomorphism. They can start with rehiring Scott Forstall and bringing back all of the exact same skeuomorpic designs used in iOS 6 and Mac OS X Mountain Lion, but with increased resolution for today's higher-resoultion screens, while adding new iOS 6-style and Mac OS X Mountain Lion-style graphics for everthing that did not exist when when those were released.
I did not like the flat design of iOS 7 but 10.9 didn't have the same issue and was more balanced. Mountain Lion I just looked at in my old VM I had setup back then and... it looks nice and consistant compared to Liquid Glass. I think somewhere between the two would be more appealing to everyone at large (neuomorphism?). Skeuomorpic design is more intuitive compared to pure flat. Pure flat is like looking at a desert landscape. Everything looks the same and you start seeing hallucinations of things that are not there. LOL
 
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Excellent point. It doesn't take much graphic artist-type talent to make flat design.
quite the opposite
Apple needs to return to skeuomorphism.
please no. Ido not want notebook paper like looking notes or whatever pages, etc.

to paraphrase wikipedia: Flat design makes it easier to quickly convey information while still looking visually appealing and approachable. Additionally, it makes it easier to design an interface that is responsive to changes.
Obviously, done right 🙂
 
I don't mind flat coz displays are flat. Thus flat is a true to the media (the display).
Even with flat there is depth: overlapping windows.

I didn't much care for the false 3D look of, say, Aqua. Coz none of the false 3D buttons and progress bars were ever 3D, but only ever 2D. And the messages both flat and 3D communicate visually is the same. So you don't gain anything with false 3D.

Likewise Skeuomorophism ... not a fan. The "paper" or "leather" or "brushed aluminum" or "glass" ... very fake and untruthful.
 
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Excellent point. It doesn't take much graphic artist-type talent to make flat design. And that partially explains why skeuomorphism (which is what Susan Kare's designs were) is user-friendly and intuitive whereas flat design is user-unfriendly and unintuitive. It also explains why skeuomorphism is thoughtful whereas flat design is dull. Apple has been using flat design since 2013-present. Apple has used three different variations of flat design: regular flat design, followed by neuomorphism, followed by glassmorphism (aka Liquid Glass).

Apple needs to return to skeuomorphism. They can start with rehiring Scott Forstall and bringing back all of the exact same skeuomorpic designs used in iOS 6 and Mac OS X Mountain Lion, but with increased resolution for today's higher-resoultion screens, while adding new iOS 6-style and Mac OS X Mountain Lion-style graphics for everthing that did not exist when those were released.
Susan Kare, that icon designer for the original Macintosh reference in the post that you are responding to, literally said that iOS 7 and the flat design was “the right direction”.
“Generally a good direction--am a fan of simple, meaningful symbols that fill a space, such as Music and Weather. It's better -- more iconic, less illustrative.”

So even the “artists” who worked on the original Mac alongside Jobs thought flat was the way to go by the 2010s.
And also, she wasn’t even around at Apple anymore for the icons used for Mountain Lion and iOS 6.
 
The thing I don't get about Liquid Glass is that it is not 'Liquid' or 'Glass' like in any way. They should have called it 'Random Shadows to fix stuff you can no longer see'.
Yeah, the primary objects - like window chrome and background - aren't any different than Big Sur in any way other than rounding and pill boxes. I would have expected some hint of moving away from that flat and stark aesthetic.
 
Susan Kare, that icon designer for the original Macintosh reference in the post that you are responding to, literally said that iOS 7 and the flat design was “the right direction”.
“Generally a good direction--am a fan of simple, meaningful symbols that fill a space, such as Music and Weather. It's better -- more iconic, less illustrative.”
Was she specifically talking about iOS, or all OS's and form factors in existence? Because the problem is Apple's delusional fantasy that iOS should determine the design of the desktop/laptop.

Even if she was making a blanket statement that the only way to go is flat, it's not a very good point to make. The fact is her skeumorphic designs were well-received by the intended audience, regardless of whether she thought flat was better.
 
1000% is how much I agree with you. As a designer I find it offensive and repellant to the eye. Hate it.
As someone with UX/UI experience, I love it. It seems to "get out of the way" of the user and make the experience of using Apple devices more spacious. Overall, it makes me want to use the device more, not less, which is a big deal. Also, love the check marks to indicate how to crystallize changes when typing something (in Notes, for instance). Small, minor change that really enhances usability and crystallizes UI.
 
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Excellent point. It doesn't take much graphic artist-type talent to make flat design. And that partially explains why skeuomorphism (which is what Susan Kare's designs were) is user-friendly and intuitive whereas flat design is user-unfriendly and unintuitive. It also explains why skeuomorphism is thoughtful whereas flat design is dull. Apple has been using flat design since 2013-present. Apple has used three different variations of flat design: regular flat design, followed by neuomorphism, followed by glassmorphism (aka Liquid Glass).

Apple needs to return to skeuomorphism. They can start with rehiring Scott Forstall and bringing back all of the exact same skeuomorpic designs used in iOS 6 and Mac OS X Mountain Lion, but with increased resolution for today's higher-resoultion screens, while adding new iOS 6-style and Mac OS X Mountain Lion-style graphics for everthing that did not exist when those were released.
It takes a ton of talent and knowledge to do flat design well, and Apple has had hits and misses in this area. Also, flat design, if executed properly, should be more intuitive than skeuomorphic design. This is in part because the goal of flat design is to pare down interface elements to that which is most immediately communicative, rather than embellishing objects with purely decorative elements designed to evoke an analogy to a real-world object.

As an example, a music player designed to look like an old-school radio will never be as intuitive as a music player pared down to clear controls for the necessary functions.
 
Looks like a lot of people are still conflating skeuomorphism with leather stitching and felt textures, so let's zoom out a bit. Skeuomorphism should have evolved as the real-world objects from back in the day still largely exist today. We should be enjoying clean and modern evolved takes on the connection between real life and technology.

The worst thing that the industry decided was that software interfaces should be relative to each other, a shared design language that has no relation to real world objects or movement and so on, but this never actually happened. Instead, most developers did their own thing with their own design languages and often copy some of the laziest and backward takes from their competition, to stay competitive, which is largely where we are at today.

An OS or app doesn't have to be empty and stark with minimal options in order for it to look elegant with a beautiful design and also easy to use. When the user can't distinguish where (some) depthless windows and menus fall, is blinded by a sea of white, and has to find hidden buttons and menus, the experience isn't 'easier'. And when you're looking for said buttons, tabs, menus, sliders and so on, or squinting your eyes to make out text that has massive blur behind it, or having to click more buttons, often a tiny little 'x', the OS is not only in your way, but it's hiding what you need in order to use it properly, all in an effort to make the application or OS look and feel 'easy to use' while accomplishing the complete opposite while actually using it.

Has anyone ever turned on a brand new Mac and was amazed at what Apple thinks what an out of box experience should be for a new Mac user? Where are the files? Where's the hard disk? Where are the items in Spotlight stored? Export? Where is Save As? What's the difference? Why can't I tap to click? Why are default Finder windows so small? Why are files not in any order in Finder windows? And I can go on and on with endless head-scratchers here.

These are things most of us just change and correct without even thinking about it, and newer users do not assume that they're using their iPhone when they turn their new Macs on, so no matter how hard Apple tries, these two experiences will never be the same, but they insist on their 'you don't need to know where everything is' and 'we think you'll love the way we want you to use the OS' mentality, which forces users to dig through System Settings and various preferences to make their new Macs usable, especially if they're coming over from Windows. Because it's a Mac, not an iPhone. The ecosystem can remain super-tight with shared apps across Apple OSs, iCloud syncing and so on, but it should end there and the GUI/UX should be relative to (and geared toward) the device that it's running on.

It also looks like many have fallen for the myth (that Apple keeps going on about) that Tahoe and the iOS variants gets the OS 'out of the way' when in reality, OS 26 has done the complete opposite, and all I keep doing is trying to get around the superfluous and gratuitous 'features' that they baked in to showcase an almost non-existent 'glass' look, all while others fear that leather stitching and notepad lines may make a return.

Oh, the irony of it all.

Minimalist and flat GUI/UX design, if not done properly, and many are not (in my view), makes for a more difficult, boring, cold, and frustrating user experience, and Apple made a lot of unwanted and backward changes so that they can showcase their 'Liquid Glass' design, which ironically, is almost no where to be found. In Dark Mode, there is no or very little (obvious) glass, just GUI elements that try to mimic it, which, along with the awful and overly rounded Finder and app corners just makes the interface look unattractive, a bit amateurish, and worse than Sequoia in many areas of the OS.

When an OS has minimal on-screen components, lacks shadowing, depth, textures and obvious, intuitive controls, and when there are large empty spaces with minimal interface elements, the user will spend more time looking for what they need in order to start working (or playing), versus intuitively just doing it. Same for icons, which are now all the same shape, and often just glyphs on a tile, making the user have to hone in closer to pic the app they want to open, versus easily spotting it out via a well designed, naturally shaped icon, which again, totally defeats the purpose and another example of an OS getting in the user's way.

Having said that, Apple's worst OS is better than Window's best OS in my view, but I expect more from the company that revolutionized the GUI and UX, but somehow lost their way. 3rd party developers shouldn't be more talented than Apple's own dev teams, but if you look at some modern software out there, you have to wonder why Apple isn't using this kind of talent.

When the iPhone brought the masses to Apple, and ultimately turned them into the behemoth that they are today, you can see why they now cater to this consumer-base, prioritizing profit margins. Apple's 'It just works' reputation is starting to erode, but they refuse to dig into their very deep pockets to build development teams that can actually put out polished, intuitive (and attractive) software/products, as they used to.
 
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Looks like a lot of people are still conflating skeuomorphism with leather stitching and felt textures, so let's zoom out a bit. Skeuomorphism should have evolved as the real-world objects from back then still exist today. We should be enjoying clean and modern evolved takes on the connection between real life and technology.

The worst thing that the industry decided was that software interfaces should be relative to each other, a shared design language that has no relation to real world objects or movement, but this never actually happened. Instead, most developers did their own thing with their own design languages, and would often copy some of the laziest takes from their competition, to stay competitive, which is largely where we are at today.

An OS or app doesn't have to be empty and stark with minimal options in order for it to be elegant with a beautiful design and also easy to use. When the user can't distinguish where (some) depthless windows and menus fall, is blinded by a sea of white, and has to find buttons and menus, the experience isn't 'easier'. And when you're looking for said buttons, tabs, menus, sliders and so on, or squinting your eyes to make out text with massive blur behind it, or having to click more buttons, often a tiny little 'x', the OS is not only in your way, but it's hiding what you need in order to use it properly, all in an effort to make the application or OS look and feel 'easy to use' while accomplishing the complete opposite while actually using it.

Has anyone ever turned on a brand new Mac and was amazed at what Apple thinks what an out of box experience should be for a new Mac user? Where are the files? Where's the hard disk? Where are the items in Spotlight stored? Export? Where is Save As? What's the difference? Why can't I tap to click? Why are Finder windows so small? Why are files not in any order in Finder windows? And I can go on and on with endless head-scratchers here.

These are things most of us change without even thinking about it, and newer users do not assume that they're using their iPhone when they turn their new Macs on, and no matter how hard Apple tries, these two experiences will never be the same, but they insist on their 'you don't need to know where everything is' and 'we think you'll love the way we use the OS' mentality, which forces users to dig through System Settings and various preferences to make their new Macs usable, especially if they're coming over from Windows. Because it's a Mac, not an iPhone. The ecosystem can remain super-tight with shared apps, syncing and so on, but it should end there and the GUI/UX should be relative to (and geared toward) the device it's on.

It also looks like many have fell for the myth that Apple is going on about how Tahoe and the iOS variants gets the OS 'out of the way' when in reality, OS 26 has done the complete opposite, and all I keep doing is trying to get around the superfluous and gratuitous 'features' that they baked in to showcase an almost non-existent 'glass' look, all while others fear that leather stitching and notepad lines may make a return.

Oh, the irony of it all.

Minimalist and flat GUI/UX design, if not done properly, and many are not (in my view), makes for a more difficult, boring, cold, and frustrating user experience, and Apple made a lot of changes so that they can showcase their 'Liquid Glass' design, which ironically, is almost no where to be found. In Dark Mode, there is no glass, just GUI elements that try to mimic it, which, along with the awful and overly rounded corners just makes the interface look unattractive, a bit amateurish, and worse than Sequoia in many areas of the OS.

When an OS has minimal on-screen components, lacks shadowing, depth, textures and obvious, intuitive controls, and when there large empty spaces with minimal interface elements, the user will spend more time looking for what they need in order to start working (or playing), versus intuitively just doing it. Same for icons, which are now all the same shape, and often just glyphs on a tile, making the user have to hone in closer to pic the app they want to open, versus easily spotting it out via a well designed, naturally shaped icon, which again, totally defeats the purpose and another example of an OS getting in the user's way.

Having said that, Apple's worst OS is better than Window's best OS in my view, but I expect more from the company that revolutionized the GUI and UX, but somehow lost their way. 3rd party developers shouldn't be more talented than Apple's own dev teams. When the iPhone brought the masses to Apple, and ultimately turned them into the behemoth that they are today, you can see why they now cater to this consumer-base, and prioritizing profit margins. Apple's 'It just works' reputation is starting to erode, but they refuse to dig into their very deep pockets to build development teams that can actually put out polished, intuitive products, as they used to.
in my humble experience (fwiw, i had a successful freelance mac-support business in nyc from 2002 to 2018), most people live on the desktop, and don't know half of what they can do on their computers. but everyone is capable of learning, finding their way around, asking google, or getting help.

we all found our way here, so will new users; even if tahoe is their first OS. just my thoughts of course
 
It takes a ton of talent and knowledge to do flat design well, and Apple has had hits and misses in this area. Also, flat design, if executed properly, should be more intuitive than skeuomorphic design. This is in part because the goal of flat design is to pare down interface elements to that which is most immediately communicative, rather than embellishing objects with purely decorative elements designed to evoke an analogy to a real-world object.

As an example, a music player designed to look like an old-school radio will never be as intuitive as a music player pared down to clear controls for the necessary functions.
As a designer I agree totally with this. Minimalism is akin to sculpture. You start out with an infinite array of directions you could take things but chip away all the elements not required and you create the most effective and efficient design. This lack of superfluous frivolity leads to a natural elegance, thus form follows function and you end up with a nice looking efficient design.

iOS7 was exactly that (because Ive knows about design) and the fact it was minimal/modernist in approach meant it wouldn't ever actually go out of style because there was nothing extraneous to date it. To refresh the design all that needed to be done was maybe a new set of icons and a refinement of how some interactions worked. Maybe be able to change the blue icons to a colour of your choice so you can refresh things somewhat whenever you liked.

Unfortunately most people are not design literate and expect a complete overhaul of everything just for the sake of saying it's new. Apple knows this and so went about adding graphical fluff that adds nothing but distraction and complication because they couldn't make it any simpler than it was (for the most part). They've done this to sell more obviously - unfortunately that's just business. When it comes to design and corporate, corporate always wins. When Jobs was around it was different because he understood just how important design is and cared about the experience.

On that note I have noticed that a great deal of the most vocal opponents of Liquid Glass seem to be designers because they know that a great many fundamental rules of design have been broken (and haphazardly 'fixed' with drop shadows).

The worst part of Apples current design language approach is that they are trying to merge the design aesthetic across all platforms thereby creating a sort of blanket 'it'll do' mess. Each platform should be treated independently as they are used completely differently. Yes create an overall style that matches, colours, graphical elements etc but the actual function of elements should remain independent. Just because a search bar or element works best at the bottom on iOS doesn't mean it works best at the bottom on MacOS.

So the problem is two fold. They cocked up (from a user point of view) adding extraneous (and ugly) elements for no other reason than to make money thus over complicating the interface AND they're trying to force MacOS to be like iOS because they believe that new iPhone users will be more likely to get a Mac if the experience is the same. Only thing is they're not the same. They're now both a Frankenstein mish mash and neither are as good as they could be. Personally my approach would be make each platform the best it can be to drive sales - akin to Apple's past.
 
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I don't mind flat coz displays are flat. Thus flat is a true to the media (the display).
Even with flat there is depth: overlapping windows.

I didn't much are for the false 3D look of, say, Aqua. Coz none of the false 3D buttons and progress bars were ever 3D, but only ever 2D. And the messages both flat and 3D communicate visually is the same. So you don't gain anything with false 3D.

Likewise Skeuomorophism ... not a fan. The "paper" or "leather" or "brushed aluminum" or "glass" ... very fake and untruthful.
The Aqua style was about making buttons and interactive elements look tactile so subconsciously you knew right away where to click. While it looks quite dated today it was actually quite nice and simple to use (in my opinion). iOS7 and above achieved this by having no distracting elements. This is what is lacking in Liquid Glass. Liquid Glass has far too many distracting elements that all look alike. Rounded corners everywhere and transparency galore means what should be done instantly at a subconscious level is forced into the conscious level slowing you down while your brain tries to interpret what it's looking at. It's all very subtle of course but if you're using your devices all day everyday you waste mental capacity on something that you shouldn't have to think about. Totally contradicting what Liquid Glass was meant to be.
 
LOL, this is too good not to share

1764940669206.png
 
The Aqua style was about making buttons and interactive elements look tactile so subconsciously you knew right away where to click. While it looks quite dated today it was actually quite nice and simple to use (in my opinion). iOS7 and above achieved this by having no distracting elements. This is what is lacking in Liquid Glass.
Bravo. If only more people understood this.

Liquid Glass has far too many distracting elements that all look alike. Rounded corners everywhere and transparency galore means what should be done instantly at a subconscious level is forced into the conscious level slowing you down while your brain tries to interpret what it's looking at. It's all very subtle of course but if you're using your devices all day everyday you waste mental capacity on something that you shouldn't have to think about. Totally contradicting what Liquid Glass was meant to be.
Couldn't have said this better.

Screenshot 2025-08-17 at 14.07.48.png


Finder pre-Tahoe. Visually, makes complete sense; the sidebar is persistent and therefore does not need to be a giant pill floating on top of a window, since it won't be hidden. Less is more. Clear controls.
 
I agree, though I still dream in Snow Leopard so perhaps my opinion should be invalid...

View attachment 2596936
Not invalid at all, we all have our opinions. As long as you can articulate why then that's all that can be asked for.

Leopard was a beautiful and very functional UI, in my opinion. It had my favourite Finder, which is very clear and easy to access.
 
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