iMac 2013 (and later) with NVME SSD?

Discussion in 'iMac' started by mbosse, Jul 18, 2018.

  1. Gluca macrumors newbie

    Gluca

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2019
    Location:
    Italy
    #126
    Hi all, I've read all the posts regarding the ssd blade upgrades, I checked the specifications of my imac 27 "late 2015 17.1 boot ROM 161.0.0.0.0 so I know that if I install a ssd blade in my imac I will have problems. if the problem is the version of the boot Rom, nobody succeeds to extrapolate it in a compatible imac and share it in this group so you can install or flash in imac not compatible? Another question if instead I install an original ssd blade Apple of a macbook pro my boot rom is updated automatically so you have no problem? thanks
     
  2. dieselm macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2009
    #127
    I do happen to have an official Apple SSD to use from another iMac 5k 2015 27". The SSD is formatted APFS with the latest Mojave.

    The target machine is a 27" late-2015 5k iMac 17,1 (HDD only originally) Current bootrom 161.0.0.0. Using an EVO 970 in it throws weird errors around sleep. Couple questions before I open it up.

    1) if I install the Apple SSD into the target machine, is running a Mojave installer from recovery mode sufficient to flash the bootrom? Do I need to erase it first?

    2) what bootrom version should I see to know it worked?

    Thanks!
     
  3. macguru8 macrumors newbie

    macguru8

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2013
    #128
    My iMac is a 27" late-2015 5k iMac 17,1 (HDD only originally) Current bootrom 161.0.0.0., SMC Version (system): 2.33f10
    I never flashed the bootrom. My iMac was original an i5, I opened it up, replaced the CPU with a 4.0GHZ, added Samsung Evo 512GB, formate it as APFS and installed Mojave as fresh install. My iMac been running perfect.
     
  4. dobrink, Mar 8, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019

    dobrink macrumors member

    dobrink

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2013
    Location:
    Helsinki, Finland
    #129
    dieselm, it is just a theory of mine. I may be wrong, just like in the case with macguru8, his information does not match my hypothesis.

    macguru8 which adapter are you using? What is your board ID and EFI versions (run the Terminal commands from here). Can you also paste the results of ”sudo pmset -g”. Perhaps also list your upgrade here so we can add it to the pool.
     
  5. Gluca macrumors newbie

    Gluca

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2019
    Location:
    Italy
    #130
    Ok guys I'll give you more information. I called now a computer technician who works on Rome in Italy has a shop and does mainly adding ssd in imac opens 5 a day, he told me that he put several times ssd Pcie original Apple on models 27 of 2015 and boot rom stays the same in models with (HDD only) the problem of sleep also remains with ssd original apple and it does not even explain him why. Considering that the original ssd Apple are only used and have a speed lower than the M.2 of samsung he advises me to put a new M.2 Samsung 970 evo. According to you, is it true?
     
  6. mbosse thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2015
    Location:
    Vienna, Austria
    #131
    Interesting. Here is my piece of experience: I installed an Intel 760p 2 TB with the black short Sintech adapter in an 2015 iMac 27”, and got sleep problems. I then removed the SSD and put it into a 15” 2015 MBP - no issues at all!

    Best,
    Magnus
     
  7. Gluca macrumors newbie

    Gluca

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2019
    Location:
    Italy
    #132
    Ok I made another call to a computer technician famous on the web who works in Milan. He told me all the imac models that are born with Fusiondrive are equipped with bootroom that recognizes ssd blade any brand or model will never have sleep problems, all imac (HDD only) no will always have trouble sleeping! So any ssd blade is added even if original Apple will always have the problem of sleep.
     
  8. dobrink, Mar 8, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019

    dobrink macrumors member

    dobrink

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2013
    Location:
    Helsinki, Finland
    #133
    So even an experienced technician with access to tons of iMacs, cannot fix the issue? :eek: And it is not all about speed, also responsiveness matters. For example my M.2 SX8200 Pro is less responsive than a Samsung 860 Evo 2.5" SATA. The M.2 gives longer starting times and actions with it do not seem entirely instant as with the 2.5" SATA.

    It has been discussed in the laptop thread that 2015+ MacBooks have no issues with NVMe SSDs. After all, the laptops always come with a SSD, which is like a blade drive for an iMac.

    For iMacs perhaps we should look at the board ids, since for 27" Late 2015 iMacs there are 3 distinct boards, starting with: DB15, B809, 65CE (mine). If the EFI updater assigns bootroms based on that board-id then this would explain why even by equipping a HDD-only iMac with an Apple SSD, it will not get the update. (how to check which board you have >here<)
    And I do not believe in "will always have trouble sleeping", it will have until we find a solution! ;)
     
  9. Gluca macrumors newbie

    Gluca

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2019
    Location:
    Italy
    #134
    A solution exists they told me I have to change the logic board that has that firmware to then mount a ssd blade. They also told me that the operation would be too expensive and the difference in speed between a 2.5 sata and an M.2 blade is not much. In practice it is not convenient. I am sure that on this forum you will find a different solution but I think these INFORMATION are very important for all those who decide to make this upgrade and are undecided about which type of SSD to choose. At least now more information has been clarified
     
  10. mbosse thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2015
    Location:
    Vienna, Austria
    #135
    Mmh strange: my iMac originally came with an Apple 512 GB SSD...
     
  11. macguru8, Mar 9, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019

    macguru8 macrumors newbie

    macguru8

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2013
    #136
    All of my iMac info added to the link you provided.

    Updated to Mojave 10.14.4 from 10.14.3. Boot Rom updated to 164.0.0.0.0. SMC remain the same 2.33f10
    model identifier: iMac17,1
    board-id: Mac-65CE76090165799A
    EFI Version: IM171.88Z.F000.B00.1809251200
    Adapter: Sintech ST-NGFF2013-C
    Boot ROM Version 161.0.0.0.0
    SMC Version (system) 2.33f10

    System-wide power settings:
    Currently in use:
    Sleep On Power Button 1
    autopoweroff 0
    standbydelayhigh 86400
    autopoweroffdelay 28800
    proximitywake 1
    standby 0
    standbydelaylow 0
    ttyskeepawake 1
    hibernatemode 25
    powernap 0
    gpuswitch 2
    hibernatefile /var/vm/sleepimage
    highstandbythreshold 50
    displaysleep 60
    womp 0
    networkoversleep 0
    sleep 60 (sleep prevented by cloudphotosd, sharingd)
    halfdim 1
    autorestart 1
    disksleep 10
     
  12. dobrink macrumors member

    dobrink

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2013
    Location:
    Helsinki, Finland
    #137
    I see, so your situation is the same as mine, the same device, the same motherboard. Gotta use hibernate because normal sleep crashes. Well, that is what we are trying to find the solution to.
     
  13. macgeek01, Mar 10, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019

    macgeek01 macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    #138
    Confused, thought it has already been confirmed Late 2015 iMacs support hibernate with 3rd party MVME just like 2015 MBPs?

    If anything easy to disable hibernate and will wake faster from RAM with sleep. Bigger issue with MacBooks due to faster faster battery drain when not plugged in.
    --- Post Merged, Mar 10, 2019 ---
    I don’t believe there is a way to flash the bootrom with modified firmware without the use of a SPI programmer. Their is no port on the logic board to connect to like on MacBooks so you must use clamps and I’ve heard certain iMac models use chips that you can’t clamp on to so must desolder if you want to flash.
     
  14. macgeek01 macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    #139
    I now understand the issue is with sleep opposed to hibernate with iMacs and NVME SSDs while the opposite is true with MacBook Pros.

    It would make sense if Late 2015 and later iMacs don’t have sleep issues with NVME. Late 2015 models shipped with 24GB NVME SSDs with the 1TB Fusion option. 2017 iMacs SSDs are all NVME:

    https://beetstech.com/blog/apple-proprietary-ssd-ultimate-guide-to-specs-and-upgrades

    I would think you may not get the proper BootROM without having an Apple SSD installed but it seems at least one person has reported no sleep issues on a Late 2015 iMac that shipped without an Apple SSD.
     
  15. ssdaytona macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    #140
    Well, I have the 2015 model with a 1tb fusion drive. I still have sleep issues even though mine came with the small blade ssd
     
  16. macgeek01 macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    #141
    iMac Mid 2015 or Late 2015? Is the drive you removed a 32GB labeled SSPOLARIS? What OS did you have installed before installing the new one? Thanks.
     
  17. ssdaytona macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
  18. macgeek01 macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    #143
    Perhaps you never installed the security update mentioned below?

     
  19. dayslypper macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2019
    #144
    Device: iMac 27 Late 2013
    Blade upgrade: (empty) -> Toshiba BG3 Client SSD 256GB, M.2 (KBG30ZMS256G)
    Speed test: 770 MB/s read, 480 MB/s write (Is it more less half of specified, is it hardware maximum? what is the bottleneck of speed?)
    Adapter: 12+16Pin NGFF M.2 NVME SSD Convert Card Adapter Card for 2013-2015 Mac Air T5B8
    Issues after fresh OS install: Sleep OK.
    Never tried hibernate mode before upgrading SSD so I can't compare but I tried to activated hibernatemode=25. Wake-up by keyboard or mouse is ok but iMac started wake-up every 45minutes showing login screen and then go hibernate after a few seconds. Any idea how to fix it? I tried to switch off mouse but still the same.
     
  20. dobrink macrumors member

    dobrink

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2013
    Location:
    Helsinki, Finland
    #145
    The Toshiba NVMe SSD is Gen3 x2 , while the 2013 iMac is Gen2 x2, so there shouldn't be anything limiting the performance. In 2013 27" iMacs people achieve about 750-780 MB/s read/write.
    This is an interesting adapter you have bought. It is cheaper than the SinTech and supports NVMe, at least according to the title. However, it looks just like any other adapter that is listed for AHCI SSDs-only.

    To fix the waking problems, go to System Preferences -> Energy Saver and untick "Wake for network access" AND/OR "Enable power nap". For me, I think that network wake alone fixed it, but I have the power nap off as well.

    It is very interesting that your machine sleeps and wakes normally. Do you have OS X installed on the new Toshiba NVMe or on the original 3.5" HDD (i.e. which drive is the boot volume in?). Also what OS X are you running?

    Can you provide the following information from Terminal:
    Power -> sudo pmset -g
    EFI -> /usr/libexec/firmwarecheckers/eficheck/eficheck --integrity-check
    boot rom -> system_profiler SPHardwareDataType | grep -i "Version" | awk -F ':' '{print $1 $2}'

    The wake problem what everyone is experiencing is caused by waking from sleep when hibernatemode is different than 25 and when standby is different than 0. If OS X is installed on the NVMe these are the below scenarios:

    1) hibernatemode = 0 or 3, standby = 0 -> upon trying to wake, the Mac will reboot with a message "Your computer restarted because of a problem"
    2) hibernatemode = 0 or 3 or 25, standby = 1 -> upon trying to wake, the Mac will show a folder with a question mark in it, and you will have to long press the power button to shut down your computer
    3) hibernatemode = 25, standby = 0 -> the only option for a successful wake

    autopoweroff, sleep, displaysleep, disksleep settings do NOT matter.

    The above issues occur because the bootrom contains an archived inactive version of the NVMe dXE driver. IMacs from 2013 onwards SUPPORT NVME, but we would only be able to make our NVMe work properly if we are able to extract that NVMe dXE driver, or embed it from a 2017 iMac's installer and replace it on a software level (flash it to the motherboard's SPI rom chip), just like OS X would otherwise do if it would recognize a newer 2017 iMac.
     
  21. macgeek01 macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    #146
    Unless someone get’s hold of the private keys for Apple’s RSA sognature then I don’t believe a software based modified firmware flash will ever be possible.

    I spoke with of the guys from CMIzapper and he said that iMacs with
    SOIC ROM chips can be flashed with a SPI Programmer using clamps but not the iMacs using WSON chips. WSON chips need to be desoldered. He said newer iMacs use WSON chips didn’t provide specifics so I’ll have to check what chip is on my 27” Late 2015.

    If someone can share the ROM from a 2017 iMac then we can check for different NVME drivers to extract and flash with modified ROM.
     
  22. dayslypper, Apr 4, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019

    dayslypper macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2019
    #147
    So what is the limit of writing speed being 480 instead of more than 750? Adapter? Or SSD?

    I have latest MacOS Mojave 10.14.4 and I'm running it 100% from NVMe SSD. I formatted HDD, and now it's empty.

    Terminal printscreen below.
    standby = 1
    hibernatemode = 25

    The only change that I register, is obviously slower start followed by Welcome melody/gong plays twice when wake up from hibernation before showing login screen.
     

    Attached Files:

  23. kretek, Apr 5, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
  24. TrumanLA macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    #149
    Is the problem STRICTLY wih [sleep - resume] on iMac Lae 2015+ ... for the 27" ..?

    If so, is the worst case scenario to disable sleep ?
    --- Post Merged, Apr 8, 2019 ---
    Can adding a 3rd party SSD to Mid or Late 2015 iMac make them run spastically?

    Does SSUAX and SSUBX (OEM SSDs) work properly in all years for which the PCI drive fits?
    Presumably 2013 - 2015 (including mid and late) ..?

    thank you. If anyone can reply quickly on this it's actually time sensitive.

    regards
     
  25. RiMsuX macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2019
    Location:
    Canada
    #150

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