iMac G4 no longer?

[whenpaulsparks]

mark my words -- there will be a iMac G5 this summer. and i'm starting my next year of college in the fall, hopefully it will be available before mid-August. if not, i can always have it on order and "suffer" with just my 1GHz Ti PowerBook G4

but yes, the PowerMac 8,1 thing definitely means iMac, and since it jumped to 8 instead of staying on 6, that means a huge change, so iMac G5 here we come. it just makes sense. they last updated it, what, a few years ago, to the new form factor? the only thing that doesnt make sense is that both desktop machines would have G5s, and both laptops would have G4s (dont give me PBG5 crap). usually the Power series has the step up (remember when it was PowerMac G4, PowerBook G4, iMac G3, and iBook G3? IIRC) but i think the iMac deserves a G5, if it is to continue selling. and i was just about to buy an iMac G4, but then i realized that all the rumors were coming together for a G5, so i'm gonna hold off.

but about the comment of the iMac not selling, its big in educational markets, and a lot of people (like my mother, who bought one in november 2003) don't NEED the power of a G5 to justify the price. the iMac is expensive (but still powerful) enough for them. my only complaint is that 256 MB is not enough. even for basic stuff, when you have 2 or more accounts logged in with fast user switching (yes, on the new, top of the line iMac) it slows to a crawl.

 

[segundo]

the only thing that doesnt make sense is that both desktop machines would have G5s, and both laptops would have G4s (dont give me PBG5 crap).

This makes sense to me . . . it may be a bit before IBM is able to get the G5 in a form factor that is useable for notebooks. I totally agree with you that we will have G5 desktops and G4 notebooks. I'm always more concerned with battery life than raw performance in a notebook but for a desktop raw performance is what I'm looking for.

I'm excited about the prospects of a G5 iMac. Does anyone have any clue what the new form factor might look like?

 

[joelypolly]

I don't know WHY everyone keeps saying that the Pentium-M is based on the Pentium III, that just isn't the case. It's well known that the Pentium-M is an entirely new processor. It was designed from the ground up in Israel. Though they studied the Pentium III architecture when designing it, it isn't specifically based on the P-III.

Well sorry but thats because its true. Intel would like the world to believe it's a brand new chip but its really just a based of the P3. It has be reworked with longer pipeline and that but it is based of the Pentium III. BTW the Pentium III is based of the Pentium II which is based of the Pentium Pro with each generation Intel added stuff like MMX, SSE and stuff like that.

 

[~Shard~]

So what happens if the G5 iMac is announced at WWDC, or in the near future, however instead of being cheaper it's more expensive? What if it becomes the mid-grade model, between the PowerMac (Pro) and leaving the eMac as the only consumer-level machine? What if it has a G5 and updated hardware, updated display, etc., but as a result, is placed in a higher price bracket? Just a thought...

 

[Phinius]

IBM sells the 970 officially at up to 1.8Ghz (and at 2Ghz to Apple) but it said in the beginning that the design should scale up to around 2.5Ghz, that means that they expected to produce 2.5Ghz versions (presumably that includes variations like the 970FX) at some point down the line (one, two, three years later).

IBM also publically stated that the 970FX consumes less power at 2.5Ghz than the 970 at 2.0Ghz. It does not make any sense to say something like this, if they don't expect to produce it at that speed in the not-to-distant future.

The 970 topped out at 2GHz on the 130-nm process and it should go up to 3GHz, judging from both Jobs statement last June and statements from IBM about the expected Power5 topend frequency.

 

[aswitcher]

So what happens if the G5 iMac is announced at WWDC, or in the near future, however instead of being cheaper it's more expensive? What if it becomes the mid-grade model, between the PowerMac (Pro) and leaving the eMac as the only consumer-level machine? What if it has a G5 and updated hardware, updated display, etc., but as a result, is placed in a higher price bracket? Just a thought...

I think the 15/17 low end should try and hit the consumer market. Maybe no BT or WiFi as standard

I think the 17/20 should come with a mid and high level package options on ram, graphics card, HDD. BT and WiFi as standard.

 

[Phinius]

imac isnt getting another G4 no matter what all you motorola lovers say,

Since the low production Xserve has a 4-6 week wait time and Apple has stated that is due to production problems from IBM, then I would expect that Apple could very well put the 1.5GHz G4 in the iMac very soon even if there is plans to move the iMac to a G5 in the next few months. Afterall, Motorola has sufficient production capacity to make the 1.5GHz G4, while IBM is at full production and cannot yet meet demands by Apple for 970FX chips.

Imac is going to get something a little more special then another slightly bumped G4. Apple likes to look forward not backward.

I wouldn't bet the farm on that. You honestly believe that Apple will leave the iMac at the speed it is now for a few more months, rather than moving it up in frequency by 20% with a 1.5GHz G4? Even if Apple plans on coming out with a G5 iMac in the near future it is very unlikely that IBM can supply enough 970FX chip in the next month or two for Apple to do that. IBM is still having yield problems with the 970FX as you can see by the backorder for the Xserve. It would not be a big deal for Apple to drop in a 1.5GHz G4 into the iMac in the meantime.

 

[~Shard~]

I think the 15/17 low end should try and hit the consumer market. Maybe no BT or WiFi as standard

I think the 17/20 should come with a mid and high level package options on ram, graphics card, HDD. BT and WiFi as standard.

I think this would work. Either that, or essetially just upgrade the 17" and 20" iMac to the G5 and leave the 15" and perhaps another version of the 17" as G4s (with minor updates?). This would then be similar to the PowerMac situation when the G5s came out - you could still purchase the G4 PM systems, for a lot less money, but you also had the G5 option. Of course, with G5 iMacs out, I question how many people would be rushing to buy the G4 iMacs unless they were one hell of a deal.

 

[aswitcher]

I question how many people would be rushing to buy the G4 iMacs unless they were one hell of a deal.

Big fire sale to try and move them I would think unless of course as you suggest they are not at the same price point as the current line.

Current iMac is not a BAD machine its just getting old and slow limit its uses. Its also pretty overpriced in Australia...

 

[Phinius]

Your missing the train, boat and airplane

Anyone who thinks a G4 is on par with a G5 is missing the boat,

The G4 doesn't have to be on a par with the G5 as a mono-processor. If the G4 has two processors on one chip then the chip has the capacity for two threads in much the same way when Apple put two processors into the G4 PowerMac. The G5 will simply be outgunned at or near the processor frequencies that a dual-core G4 would be at.

I dont want to hear about vaporware im talking chips that are made now and G5 smokes a G4.

So where is that G5 iMac now that Apple has had the G5 for 12 months now. It is looking rather obvious that Apple did not plan on moving the iMac to the 970 that is now being used for the PowerMac and IBMs current lack of production capacity makes it seem unlikely that a G5 iMac will be announced this month. If there is a G5 iMac coming soon, I would expect it to not be available until August at the earliest due to IBMs 90-nm chip yield problems. In the meantime there might very well be a speed bump for the iMac to a 1.5GHz G4. That should keep you ranting and complaining about Apple for at least the next two months.

 

[~Shard~]

Since the low production Xserve has a 4-6 week wait time and Apple has stated that is due to production problems from IBM, then I would expect that Apple could very well put the 1.5GHz G4 in the iMac very soon even if there is plans to move the iMac to a G5 in the next few months. Afterall, Motorola has sufficient production capacity to make the 1.5GHz G4, while IBM is at full production and cannot yet meet demands by Apple for 970FX chips.

Apple invested millions into a new chip and deal with IBM so if you are clamoring for G4 stagnation,low performance,slow bus,1/2 used ddr just so you can be proud to be hammered by those pc's then i would suggest looking at the laps or perhaps a Emac.



I wouldn't bet the farm on that. You honestly believe that Apple will leave the iMac at the speed it is now for a few more months, rather than moving it up in frequency by 20% with a 1.5GHz G4? Even if Apple plans on coming out with a G5 iMac in the near future it is very unlikely that IBM can supply enough 970FX chip in the next month or two for Apple to do that. IBM is still having yield problems with the 970FX as you can see by the backorder for the Xserve. It would not be a big deal for Apple to drop in a 1.5GHz G4 into the iMac in the meantime.

I agree - I don't think a 1.5 GHz G4 iMac would be out of the question. Perhaps it would even figure into my scenario described above, with the high-end iMacs receiving G5s and a lower-end model staying with G4s.

 

[~Shard~]

Big fire sale to try and move them I would think unless of course as you suggest they are not at the same price point as the current line.

Current iMac is not a BAD machine its just getting old and slow limit its uses. Its also pretty overpriced in Australia...

Yes, a price adjustment would definitetly be in order! But, depending how Apple handles the iMac line-up, and whether or not G5s are introduced, there are many possible variants on what will actually happen. As I said, maybe the iMacs will get pimped out with G5s and really impressive hardware, but carry a significantly higher price tag as a result...

 

[Phinius]

Adoption of G5 by Apple limited by IBM production capacity

I agree - I don't think a 1.5 GHz G4 iMac would be out of the question. Perhaps it would even figure into my scenario described above, with the high-end iMacs receiving G5s and a lower-end model staying with G4s.

Even if the complete adoption of G5 processors in every Mac computer were the dream of Apple, the reality is that IBMs only 300-mm wafer chip facility is running at full production and cannot meet the demands for G5 chips by Apple for the Xserve by virtue of ongoing yield problems at 90-nm. In other words, Apple will be using G4 chips for quite some time even if Apple wishes to move completely to the G5 in the near future. So, it is very likely that Apple will use a 90-nm G4 before IBM has the ability to meet the demands of supplying Apple with millions of G5 chips per year for an all G5 Mac lineup.

 

[jmustretch]

missing link

What we didn't see in the new G5 images…

new imac??

 

[~Shard~]

So where is that G5 iMac now that Apple has had the G5 for 12 months now. It is looking rather obvious that Apple did not plan on moving the iMac to the 970 that is now being used in the PowerMac and IBMs current lack of production capacity makes it seem unlikely that a G5 iMac will be announced this month. If there is a G5 iMac coming soon, I would expect it to not be available until August at the earliest due to IBMs 90-nm chip yield problems. In the meantime there might very well be a speed bump for the iMac to a 1.5GHz G4. That should keep you ranting and complaining about Apple for at least the next two months.

Very good point. Apple's strategy was not to incorporate the G5 into the iMac as soon as possible, and this was a wise move due to the yield problems that have been encountered with IBM and the 90nm chips. If Apple had pushed for a G5 iMac, they would have bene in big trouble. But, this should have come as no surprise, as this is the exact same strategy Apple had with the iMac when the G4s were released. How long was it after the G4s were announced that the iMac actually was upgraded from a G3? Quite a while if memory serves me correctly...

And yes, DHM will gladly keep ranting for the next couple of months I'm sure. I've been around long enough to hear him argue about the same points over and over for the past year at least and it gets a bit tiring. Oh well, when you keep rehashing the same points over and over at least you can save yourself some time from typing up new posts all the time - you can easily just cut and paste comments from your previous posts months earlier, since they haven't changed one bit!

 

[~Shard~]

Even if the complete adoption of G5 processors in every Mac computer were the dream of Apple, the reality is that IBMs only 300-mm wafer chip facility is running at full production and cannot meet the demands for G5 chips by Apple for the Xserve by virtue of ongoing yield problems at 90-nm. In other words, Apple will be using G4 chips for quite some time even if Apple wishes to move completely to the G5 in the near future. So, it is very likely that Apple will use a 90-nm G4 before IBM has the ability to meet the demands of supplying Apple with millions of G5 chips per year for an all G5 Mac lineup.

Precisely. Another important thing to realize here is that we're talking about the iMac - a consumer level machine. If Apple stuck G5s in all the iMacs, Apple would simply not be able to keep up with demand, due to the masses wanting this new hot (hmm, perhaps literally) machine! At least with xServes, you don't have every Tom, Dick and Harry buying them, but the iMacs are a different beast. And Phinius is correct - Apple/IBM would not be able to keep up with this level of demand, so the G4s will definitely still be around for some time to come. It makes logical sense.

 

[aswitcher]

Precisely. Another important thing to realize here is that we're talking about the iMac - a consumer level machine. If Apple stuck G5s in all the iMacs, Apple would simply not be able to keep up with demand, due to the masses wanting this new hot (hmm, perhaps literally) machine! At least with xServes, you don't have every Tom, Dick and Harry buying them, but the iMacs are a different beast. And Phinius is correct - Apple/IBM would not be able to keep up with this level of demand, so the G4s will definitely still be around for some time to come. It makes logical sense.

Couldn't they have been stockpiling sub 2.0Ghz chips for sometime now. And if they stop the 1.6 and 1.8s PMs those lines could be freed up for the iMac...

 

[Phinius]

I agree - I don't think a 1.5 GHz G4 iMac would be out of the question. Perhaps it would even figure into my scenario described above, with the high-end iMacs receiving G5s and a lower-end model staying with G4s.

That would mean that Apple would have to keep the current iMac design in production when a new G5 iMac is produced due to moving to a G5 processor requiring a whole new motherboard design and likely different form factor. I can't see Apple having production capacity for two distinctly different iMac designs even though Apples web based store still does list the G4 PowerMac for sale long after the G5 PowerMac became available and the original iMac was available long after the G4 iMac started selling. There just would not be enough consumer demand for the older iMac design to justify keeping it in production.

 

[~Shard~]

Couldn't they have been stockpiling sub 2.0Ghz chips for sometime now. And if they stop the 1.6 and 1.8s PMs those lines could be freed up for the iMac...

I don't know about the 2.0 GHz chips (I think those are in very high demand with the PMs and xServes) and the 1.8 were doubled up, but possibly the 1.6 Ghz G5s. And yes, if the 1.6 and 1.8 models were discontinued that would in theory free up more chips for the imac, I suppose. Same goes I guess if the 2.0 GHz model is discontinued as well, for a 2.4/2.6/3.0 GHz line-up (or whatever), but I still don't think there would be enough of these chips around for a mass distribution into the iMac line - I still don't know if Apple could keep up with demand... <shrug>

The iMac line could definitely go all-G5, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if we did see the G4s sticking around, either in their current form or as 1.5 Ghz G4s or something along those lines. In general, the G4 is going to be around for quite a while yet.

 

[Phinius]

Couldn't they have been stockpiling sub 2.0Ghz chips for sometime now. And if they stop the 1.6 and 1.8s PMs those lines could be freed up for the iMac...

That is another possibility, but the problem is that IBM also has plans on using the 970FX in server computers. It could be that Apple may be forced to use the older 130-nm process 970 chips for the iMac and run them at less than 2GHz. Apple is very likely to announce a completely new iMac in the next couple of months since the sales of the computer have been in a nose dive for several quarters and to make that happen they may have to resort to using the older 970 design if a G5 is indeed in the works. Apples former chief financial officer, Fred Anderson, stated at a quarterly meeting six months ago that the iMac was getting long in the tooth and that is more than a strong hint that a completely new design was in the works at that time.

 

[aswitcher]

That is another possibility, but the problem is that IBM also has plans on using the 970FX in server computers. It could be that Apple may be forced to use the older 130-nm process 970 chips for the iMac and run them at less than 2GHz. .

Thats what I am saying, iMacs get the older chips because Apple know they can produce them in quantity.

 

[~Shard~]

That would mean that Apple would have to keep the current iMac design in production when a new G5 iMac is produced due to moving to a G5 processor requiring a whole new motherboard design and likely different form factor. I can't see Apple having production capacity for two distinctly different iMac designs even though Apples web based store still does list the G4 PowerMac for sale long after the G5 PowerMac became available and the original iMac was available long after the G4 iMac started selling. There just would not be enough consumer demand for the older iMac design to justify keeping it in production.

Yah, I agree with you - just speculation on my part. And yes, I was thinking along the lines as the G4 PowerMacs vs. the G5 PowerMacs as I had indicated in one of my previous posts. If the iMac line-up did retain G4s and add G5s, the G5 iMacs would probably be with the new form factor, with the G4 iMacs remaining as they are today.

 

[Phinius]

Apple discontinuing use of the older 130-nm 970 G5 in the PowerMacs in the near future would theortically free up the availability of that chip production for the iMac. Apple using those chips for the iMac would probably come down to whether Apple engineered a G5 iMac to handle that kind of heat production. On the other hand if Apple had always intended for the fastest 970FX to eventually move to the iMac, then a G5 iMac design should be able to handle the watt usage from the older 130-nm 970. Plus, the 970 and 970FX should be pin compatable, so there shouldn't be any problem in fitting the older 970 onto a 970FX motherboard.

 

[Abu Reno]

Just sold my 20inch Cinema on EBAY. BRING ON THE BIG DOG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[~Shard~]

Just sold my 20inch Cinema on EBAY. BRING ON THE BIG DOG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And this large canine would be... ?