Image retention on MacBook Pro Retina

[bill-p]

Yes light is a packet of energy called "quanta" or a string of beads called photon.

Given the above, how is Apple manipulating those at the quantum level?

The backlight is usually florescent tubes emitting white light.

Did you mean they have some soft of filter that accentuates the red in the backlight?

Well... no.

LED backlight is not a fluorescent tube. You're thinking of gas-discharge light, but LED is not gas-discharge. LED works on the principle of electrically exciting diodes and causing them to release photons. Hence the name: Light-Emitting Diode.

The simpler version of it is this:

1) Give energy to electron, thus exciting it.
2) Excited electron tries to go back to ground level (stable), so it has to emit energy.
3) Emitted energy turns into photons

By controlling the energy level, they can control the wavelength of the photon, thus they can control the emitted light color.

Higher energy levels will release blue and UV colors.
Lower energy levels will release red and IR colors.
Mid energy levels will release green colors.

Also to consider the polarizer (think of a polarizer as a "light filter"), Apple could have gone the opposite direction: increase all light equally, and then filter out more green and blue light. That would have made the backlight white, but based on the energy levels discussed above, it would have increased power consumption in the Retina display. The more practical answer is to increase red instead, since red doesn't require a lot of energy.

On a side note, a photon is a particle/wave. It's not a string, nor is it a particle (bead), nor is it a wave. It has some properties of a wave, and some of a particle, but it's not a particle nor a wave. So it's not a string either. Every "particle" that we observe at the lowest level (electrons, protons, neutrons) are also particle/wave. So the reality is that people are not made of super small dots/balls/beads.

"Quanta" is just the plural of "quantum". It doesn't really have anything to do with light.

 

[Woodcrest64]

I have owned a MacBook Pro Retina since July 2012. Now my Macbook is showing signs of image retention. According to an Apple rep I spoke to on the phone they do not allow me to ship my Macbook in to them for inspection/repair.

I live on island and there is no Apple store near me. I would need to travel a total of 6 hours one way and pay 100$ for a ferry ride. I would then need to do this again on the way back for another 100$.

So I spoke with one Apple tech from a reseller here and he didn't want to help me. He said I should go through Apple.

I called up another reseller about an hour away who tested my Macbook using Apple's diagnosis for IR. However he claims he didn't find any signs of IR at all. He suggested I talk to Apple.

I'm frustrated right now and don't know what else to do.

 

[sodastands]

Sorry for being a downer but I did exactly what one poster in this thread advised and just enjoyed my rMPB. I've had it a few months now and just the other day I noticed retention similar to the images posted above (most noticeable, the address bar in my browser and spreadsheets being "imprinted" on an empty virtual desktop, together with the LibreOffice button row on top - I have a dark-ish wallpaper).

I guess the most important thing I'd like to know is if anyone has info on whether it can become permanent. Is there any info on this? If "all" it means is that from now on, every now and then I'll have some image retention that goes away after a few minutes but never becomes permanent (keyword: never) I guess I could live with it. Not exactly optimal for €2000+ equipment, though...

But if it does indeed become permanent after a while and I can get my screen replaced with a supposedly less retention-prone Samsung I'd like to do so as soon as possible. We just had the first two official Apple Stores open in my country so guess it's easiest to bring it there for a support chat?

If it happens to me I would 100% take it back for a replacement, I would assume things like this can only get worse!

 

[krravi]

Well... no.

LED backlight is not a fluorescent tube. You're thinking of gas-discharge light, but LED is not gas-discharge. LED works on the principle of electrically exciting diodes and causing them to release photons. Hence the name: Light-Emitting Diode.

The simpler version of it is this:

1) Give energy to electron, thus exciting it.
2) Excited electron tries to go back to ground level (stable), so it has to emit energy.
3) Emitted energy turns into photons

By controlling the energy level, they can control the wavelength of the photon, thus they can control the emitted light color.

Higher energy levels will release blue and UV colors.
Lower energy levels will release red and IR colors.
Mid energy levels will release green colors.

Also to consider the polarizer (think of a polarizer as a "light filter"), Apple could have gone the opposite direction: increase all light equally, and then filter out more green and blue light. That would have made the backlight white, but based on the energy levels discussed above, it would have increased power consumption in the Retina display. The more practical answer is to increase red instead, since red doesn't require a lot of energy.

On a side note, a photon is a particle/wave. It's not a string, nor is it a particle (bead), nor is it a wave. It has some properties of a wave, and some of a particle, but it's not a particle nor a wave. So it's not a string either. Every "particle" that we observe at the lowest level (electrons, protons, neutrons) are also particle/wave. So the reality is that people are not made of super small dots/balls/beads.

"Quanta" is just the plural of "quantum". It doesn't really have anything to do with light.

Interesting.

I was just figuratively describing light and didn't mean to imply that it was a string or anything. And "Quanta" was coined by Max Planck while describing light as "packets of energy" and each packet was one quanta(now known as a photon) and thus started the whole quantum conundrum.

 

[bill-p]

Interesting.

I was just figuratively describing light and didn't mean to imply that it was a string or anything. And "Quanta" was coined by Max Planck while describing light as "packets of energy" and each packet was one quanta(now known as a photon) and thus started the whole quantum conundrum.

Well, I don't mean to sound like a "usage Nazzi", but... "quanta" and "quantum" just means the amount ("many" or "one" in this case). They don't necessarily "describe" anything. So "light" is a "quanta" of photons, but a "quanta" is not necessarily light. It can be electrons or something else as well.

It's like saying "ten" is "a basket of apple". "A basket of apple" can be "ten apples", but "ten" alone doesn't really describe anything...

 

[krravi]

Well, I don't mean to sound like a "usage Nazzi", but... "quanta" and "quantum" just means the amount ("many" or "one" in this case). They don't necessarily "describe" anything. So "light" is a "quanta" of photons, but a "quanta" is not necessarily light. It can be electrons or something else as well.

I know, just saying where the word first got its origins, even though it might have nothing to do with light.

On that note, you might find this interesting... For the first time they have captured light as it travels... never thought I would see something like this in my lifetime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtsXgODHMWk

 

[bill-p]

I know, just saying where the word first got its origins, even though it might have nothing to do with light.

On that note, you might find this interesting... For the first time they have captured light as it travels... never thought I would see something like this in my lifetime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtsXgODHMWk

Well... because you're not seeing light as it travels.

Camera needs to see light in order to capture anything.

What you're seeing is a bunch of photons bouncing around in the air and with some of them going into the cameras in that pattern.

It's impossible to see "light" as it travels. That's paradoxical. You can't "see" light because light needs to reach you before you can "see" it. That's why no one is disputing the fact that photons exist. We simply can't prove it.

 

[Woodcrest64]

So I heard back from the Apple supervisor today over the phone. He called up a reseller in Nanaimo where I first went and was originally told to call Apple. However this time the reseller did some type of test which I didn't see with my own eyes as it was taken into a back room.

The tech came out from the back with my macbook and showed me a 'PASS' message from the test he had done. He then told me it tests for artifacts and graphical glitches as well as retention. However this didn't really deal with the image retention.

The same test was performed up island by another licensed tech at an Apple reseller who said the same thing. Essentially this test in my opinion doesn't really tell with image retention. I showed the tech what I was experiencing but he said if it doesn't fail the Apple diagnosis they can't cover it under the Apple warranty.

I'm so frustrated. Mainly because I know there are people out there with retina Macbook Pros with the Samsung panels who have had no problems at all. In addition to that there some here who have had their LG panels swapped out or computers replaced after the return policy and I'm stuck with mine it seems like.

 

[krravi]

So I heard back from the Apple supervisor today over the phone. He called up a reseller in Nanaimo where I first went and was originally told to call Apple. However this time the reseller did some type of test which I didn't see with my own eyes as it was taken into a back room.

The tech came out from the back with my macbook and showed me a 'PASS' message from the test he had done. He then told me it tests for artifacts and graphical glitches as well as retention. However this didn't really deal with the image retention.

The same test was performed up island by another licensed tech at an Apple reseller who said the same thing. Essentially this test in my opinion doesn't really tell with image retention. I showed the tech what I was experiencing but he said if it doesn't fail the Apple diagnosis they can't cover it under the Apple warranty.

I'm so frustrated. Mainly because I know there are people out there with retina Macbook Pros with the Samsung panels who have had no problems at all. In addition to that there some here who have had their LG panels swapped out or computers replaced after the return policy and I'm stuck with mine it seems like.

Why don't you call Apple directly and send them pictures of the issue?

 

[Woodcrest64]

Why don't you call Apple directly and send them pictures of the issue?

I did that. The supervisor sent them to the engineering department. They advised him to tell me to go to a reseller to have my computer looked at to see if it fell under warranty. According to their tests everything is okay but its not. Others have had the same issue with similar tests. Not much else I can do that I can think of.

 

[Mackan]

I did that. The supervisor sent them to the engineering department. They advised him to tell me to go to a reseller to have my computer looked at to see if it fell under warranty. According to their tests everything is okay but its not. Others have had the same issue with similar tests. Not much else I can do that I can think of.

Where are all the people now on this forum that says Apple will replace your screen without questions asked?

Your case is just an example of how Apple tries to avoid the issue if they can. They know there is an image retention problem with retina MacBooks, and they should replace the damn screen without questions if the customer is not happy about the screen.

There are drawbacks to live remotely, and not have an Apple Store close by. But see it from the bright side, there are no Apple Stores at all in many countries. Where I am, for example.

 

[Magpie-23]

I did that. The supervisor sent them to the engineering department. They advised him to tell me to go to a reseller to have my computer looked at to see if it fell under warranty. According to their tests everything is okay but its not. Others have had the same issue with similar tests. Not much else I can do that I can think of.

Let me pass on my own experience of the issue, and I would urge you to persevere. Timeline:-

1. LG panel. Noticed slight IR after about 3 months of use. Didn't want to get drawn into the checkerboard test nonsense as I thought it was an artificial test that didn't simulate real usage and if I couldn't see it under general use, or only occasionally, I would live with it.

2. IR gets steadily worse and worse to the point where it was dictating which desktop backgrounds I would use. Only needed a couple of minutes of a static image to reproduce IR. Became very annoying.

3. Book Genius Bar appointment. Genius takes one look and says "Yep that's terrible, we will change the screen"

4. 2 hours later Apple Store manager calls me to say it is "in spec" and refusing to do the repair. It passed their phoney test.

5. I escalate to Apple Senior Customer Care Rep who sorts it out for me to take it in to authorised repair centre nearby. They look at it and their manager says it is not acceptable and they will change the screen.

6. Both the Apple Store and the authorised repair centre did the Apple "test" and both times it passed. It is a complete sham of a test as it reverts to a black background (??).

7. 48 hours after taking machine to repair centre it comes back with Samsung replacement screen....NO IR WHAT SO EVER.

Dont put up with Apple's attempts to cover up the issue. If your IR is so bad it affects your every day work then you should get a replacement. Escalate and escalate some more via their support channels.

Good luck!

 

[dimme]

After reading thes post it seems that there is a big problem with LG screens. What does this mean for the next generation of Macbook pros. Apple is reportly moving away from Samsung as a supplier. Is LG the only other game in town.

 

[peejack]

After reading thes post it seems that there is a big problem with LG screens. What does this mean for the next generation of Macbook pros. Apple is reportly moving away from Samsung as a supplier. Is LG the only other game in town.

Had 2 LG screens and they are absolutely perfect.

 

[Spikeywan]

Mine's an LG screen, and I've had no problems so far. I bought my machine 2 weeks before Christmas.

 

[Woodcrest64]

Mine's an LG screen, and I've had no problems so far. I bought my machine 2 weeks before Christmas.

Mine was perfect too Spikey. I got mine back in July and the IR didn't become a problem until December.

 

[ssn637]

Unfortunately, both the new 13" MacBook Pro Retinas and iMacs are now beginning to show signs of IR. Apple still claims this to be normal behavior for IPS displays. Looks like both the 13" rMBP and iMac are shipping with LG panels only, although with the 13" model no one has been able to identify the display vendor via Terminal command.

https://discussions.apple.com/message/20877453#20877453?ac_cid=tw123456#20877453

 

[Woodcrest64]

Unfortunately, both the new 13" MacBook Pro Retinas and iMacs are now beginning to show signs of IR. Apple still claims this to be normal behavior for IPS displays. Looks like both the 13" rMBP and iMac are shipping with LG panels only, although with the 13" model no one has been able to identify the display vendor via Terminal command.

https://discussions.apple.com/message/20877453#20877453?ac_cid=tw123456#20877453

Also the new 2012 27" 5mm thin iMacs have image retention as well! Geez.

https://discussions.apple.com/message/20877453#20877453?ac_cid=tw123456#20877453

 

[krravi]

Why does Apple put up with LG? There seem to be ton of issues with washed out colors with LG panels on the MBA and here its IR.

Time to spec out a new supplier.

 

[DOUGHNUT]

Image retention issue definitely seems to get worse over time. Got my LG rMBP in July, didn't start noticing the issue until December, and it's gotten significantly more distracting every day. It's not simply a matter of the checkerboard pattern anymore but if you are on a website (as an example) with even slightly contrasted elements and move to a darker site you'll see the shadow from the website you were on previously. Finally decided to set up an appointment with the Genius Bar for Monday to take care of this.

 

[Southernboyj]

Image retention issue definitely seems to get worse over time. Got my LG rMBP in July, didn't start noticing the issue until December, and it's gotten significantly more distracting every day. It's not simply a matter of the checkerboard pattern anymore but if you are on a website (as an example) with even slightly contrasted elements and move to a darker site you'll see the shadow from the website you were on previously. Finally decided to set up an appointment with the Genius Bar for Monday to take care of this.

I bought mine the week of release (15") it had an LG display.. didn't notice any IR until around October and it got progressively worse. Few weeks ago I decided to contact Apple, they sent me a pre-paid shipping box/label. From the time FedEx picked up my MacBook until the time I had it back was less than 48 hours total. All shipments were done Priority Overnight. New panel is a Samsung and my display is much better.

 

[MaulRx]

Was you going to pick up the 13in model today but the in store model had horrible ghosting when switching from page to page. The sales people said it was damaged form being used so much but evidently it's a common problem. Disappointing because screen is so nice otherwise.

 

[thegreatdivorce]

Got my rMBP shortly after they released. Found out I had an LG screen. Wasn't too worried, and just used it as I normally would. I like the screen a lot.

Then today I pulled up a program with a medium grey background, to do some work. I was confused for a second because I could still read my Sparrow email windows through the grey background. Then I realized that was Image Retention. :|

Pretty disappointing. Is it the end of the world? No. But how will it be in a year? Two years? I didn't pay close to $3000 for something I'm going to have to replace in a year because Apple cheaped out on their panel supplier.

 

[KPOM]

Why does Apple put up with LG? There seem to be ton of issues with washed out colors with LG panels on the MBA and here its IR.

Time to spec out a new supplier.

Was you going to pick up the 13in model today but the in store model had horrible ghosting when switching from page to page. The sales people said it was damaged form being used so much but evidently it's a common problem. Disappointing because screen is so nice otherwise.

Got my rMBP shortly after they released. Found out I had an LG screen. Wasn't too worried, and just used it as I normally would. I like the screen a lot.

Then today I pulled up a program with a medium grey background, to do some work. I was confused for a second because I could still read my Sparrow email windows through the grey background. Then I realized that was Image Retention. :|

Pretty disappointing. Is it the end of the world? No. But how will it be in a year? Two years? I didn't pay close to $3000 for something I'm going to have to replace in a year because Apple cheaped out on their panel supplier.

I wouldn't say that Apple "cheaped out" on a panel supplier, as I'm guessing LG screens aren't any cheaper than Samsung. It is also rumored that Apple essentially propped up Sharp by paying them more than they were paying Samsung for iPhone displays.

I've had LG displays on my MacBook Airs for quite a while and never had an issue them. It seems that LG had more difficulty than Samsung in developing the higher resolution IPS panels, and hence they are more prone to IR. Unfortunately we're caught in the middle of the escalating dispute between Apple and Samsung, which is why Apple "puts up" with LG's difficulties. Apple became so dependent upon Samsung in recent years (for everything from displays to RAM to SSD/flash storage), and it came back to haunt them as they are now Apple's biggest competitor.

That said, I went ahead and purchased a 13" rMPB last month. So far there is no IR issue. Hopefully it doesn't crop up, but if it does and it gets really bad, I'll deal with it then. Apple's had some settlements in the past (the NVIDIA GPU issue in earlier MacBook Pros comes to mind), so if enough people wind up having the problem we might see a class action out of it. Hopefully it doesn't come to that and LG fixes its production issues, Sharp solves its yield issues, and Apple does a better job fixing the screens that do have the issue.