Impending EU Regulation to Force Apple to Allow Third-Party App Stores and Open Up iMessage

[RadioHedgeFund]

Potentially, but the legislation might be the very big stick that will get these discussions going and trigger the detailed work necessary to make it happen.

We already had messenger services that were interoperable. They weren't all encrypted and far from ideal, but they existed. Rather than expanding on them, we seem to have gone in the complete opposite direction.

I think we can disagree on whether or not government intervention in this space is a good idea or whether the ends are justified, but I think it is likely that all the work you mention will not happen in the current market unless companies are being forced to play nice with each other.

The internet was built on open standards.

Tech companies closing their standards goes against that idea.

If it takes legislation to wake them up then so be it.

There is a reason the internet was better 20 years ago.

 

[sudo-sandwich]

Yes, and email took a very long time, and a lot of iterations of standards work, to get to where it works as well as it does today.

And email is becoming more centralized as time passes. If you aren't using a huge provider, you're probably vulnerable to data theft in some way. If you're not sending emails within the same provider or using some special end-to-end crypto, you can't trust any of the sender identities or reasonably assume things are sent securely.

Last time I entered my email at a ticket kiosk, there was an "@gmail.com" button on the keyboard.

 

[sudo-sandwich]

There is a reason the internet was better 20 years ago.

It wasn't. On the web, you had to install Adobe Flash to do anything (how's that for decentralization), and there wasn't much you could do. Off the web, it was a virus festival. Newest big open internet standards were SOAP and XMPP. Most things weren't encrypted.

 

[klasma]

And email is becoming more centralized as time passes.

As a counterpoint, I still host my own email server on my own domain without any troubles (nowadays with DKIM, DMARC and all the shebang), and expect to be able to do so for the forseeable future. And I know a lot of individuals and SMBs who are doing the same. Messenger interoperability will hopefully allow similar autonomy at some point. Isn’t that the American attitude, be your own boss and so on?

 

[sudo-sandwich]

As a counterpoint, I still host my own email server on my own domain without any troubles (nowadays with DKIM, DMARC and all the shebang), and expect to be able to do so for the forseeable future. And I know a lot of individuals and SMBs who are doing the same. Messenger interoperability will hopefully allow similar autonomy at some point. Isn’t that the American attitude, be your own boss and so on?

You can do all that and still have your emails filtered into the spam folder of any Gmail user you message, since your server probably isn't very reputable. Being your own boss is great if it makes money, but email and XMPP self-hosting was only a hobby for me, and I didn't like those protocols.

 

[amartinez1660]

That’s not going to fly. One of the provisions is:

• Allow end users to install third party apps or app stores that use or interoperate with the operating system of the gatekeeper

Even if Apple were to offer some way to install a different OS, that doesn’t fulfill Apple’s obligations regarding their own OS. I swear, some of the “solutions” I see here act more like Apple is a petulant teenager lashing out because they were grounded, rather than one of the most valuable companies in the word.

ah, fair point. It has to be iOS no matter what.

That said, I don’t see how bootcamping is a petulant teenager style solution… I’m pretty sure a lot of people would welcome and have a potential new lifetime hobby at the least.
I think it would be THE solution for “my phone my freedom to do whatever I want” were it not to be for that clause that I totally didn’t read before.

 

[Beautyspin]

Again, I respectfully disagree. If you look at p52 of the main proposal, then chapter 3, article 6, pp1(c) and (f), it seems pretty clear that the gatekeepers must allow 3rd parties to install 3rd party software and interoperate with the operating systems, hardware and software features used by the gatekeeper.

Paragraph 52 could be seen to extend to proprietary hardware capabilities. If so, this might be seen to split the M1 chips open like a frog in middle school biology class. Hopefully this would be superseded by patent law or at least require licensing.

If you have specific references otherwise, that would be great and much appreciated.

Does that mean, for example, Apple has to make Siri available for all platforms? I do not think so. It just means that if I develop a virtual assistant, it should work on iOS.

 

[RadioHedgeFund]

It wasn't. On the web, you had to install Adobe Flash to do anything (how's that for decentralization), and there wasn't much you could do. Off the web, it was a virus festival. Newest big open internet standards were SOAP and XMPP. Most things weren't encrypted.

20 years ago the internet was a fun timewaster. It was full of small village communities across messageboards, forums and guestbooks ranging from a couple of people to several hundred. Real friendships were formed across these communities, many of which I still foster to this day with people I have never even met.

We had eBaums world and Fark and Something Awful and Hot or Not; Bad blogs and Livejournal. People writing just to kill a few minutes of somebody elses time. That early internet was made for dicking around and skiving off work.

Then around 2013-14 it stopped. Facebook and Twitter supplanted the forums and blogs. Twitter became an endless stream of self-promotion, outrage and discussion about Twitter and Facebook? Well, you've been there.

The web browser has taken over a lot of computing requirements and IT teachers (me for a while) are teaching less computing skills than they did 20 years ago because there is less to learn. This is partly down to companies like Apple and Facebook being overly controlling parents that won't let their kids leave home and learn things on their own.

And before it became synonymous with bad website transitions Flash was brilliant. It was a great starting point for the novice programmer and led to all sorts of creative games.

We didn't actually need encryption 20 years ago because the internet wasn't an extension of the real world. Nobody put personal information on it; they created a Matrix-esque alias and took on another identity.

The internet went from a fun time waster to a waste of time.

 

[Hunter5117]

Does that mean, for example, Apple has to make Siri available for all platforms? I do not think so. It just means that if I develop a virtual assistant, it should work on iOS.

Here is the exact wording from the act. They require "access and operability" with not only operating systems and hardware, but "software features". You tell me what you think that means?

"The gatekeepers should therefore be obliged to ensure access under equal conditions to, and interoperability with, the same operating system, hardware or software features that are available or used in the provision of any ancillary services by the gatekeeper."

 

[RadioHedgeFund]

Here is the exact working from the act. They require "access and operability" with not only operating systems and hardware, but "software features". You tell me what you think that means?

"The gatekeepers should therefore be obliged to ensure access under equal conditions to, and interoperability with, the same operating system, hardware or software features that are available or used in the provision of any ancillary services by the gatekeeper."

It means we might get what I've wanted for years: iWork and more Apple apps on Android and Windows.

 

[cmcbhi]

@toomasjoamets
"It's comparable to a situation where government takes 2 beers away from you if you have more than 200 beers in your fridge."
FWIW, that's.thankfully, completely illegal in the USA. It's called "taking of private property w/o compensation".
Do you really like that?

 

[RadioHedgeFund]

@toomasjoamets
"It's comparable to a situation where government takes 2 beers away from you if you have more than 200 beers in your fridge."
FWIW, that's.thankfully, completely illegal in the USA. It's called "taking of private property w/o compensation".
Do you really like that?

Its more comparable to the government telling a brewery off that sells hundreds of millions of beers that you can only open using that companies proprietary bottle opener that is only available to buy directly from them. Also this brewery is one of only 2 on the market.

There are then fans of this brewery that say creating an open standard bottle opener is wrong and that the brewery being the only place you can buy their proprietary bottle opener from is a good thing. These same fans of monolithic corporate control are then against the government, another monolithic corporation for all intents and purposes attempting to make this happen.

The government taking 2 beers from your fridge of 200 is called taxation and has been part of society for thousands of years.

 

[Hunter5117]

"It's comparable to a situation where government takes 2 beers away from you if you have more than 200 beers in your fridge."

The devil is in the details. There are many clever potentially devious little references in the act that can be seen as very scary.

 

[Beautyspin]

Here is the exact wording from the act. They require "access and operability" with not only operating systems and hardware, but "software features". You tell me what you think that means?

"The gatekeepers should therefore be obliged to ensure access under equal conditions to, and interoperability with, the same operating system, hardware or software features that are available or used in the provision of any ancillary services by the gatekeeper."

I still think the wording means that Apple (for illustration purposes I am choosing Apple) should make all the APIs and other conditions available for, say (again for illustration purpose) Google Assistant, so that it can be swapped without any disadvantage. Obviously, Apple may not be able to support all the features of Google Assistant as it may not be capable. It also does not mean that Apple should make Siri available for Android and/or other OSs.
I do not want to prolong the discussion, as I might have missed something and you might be right.

 

[VulchR]

I get the feeling that a lot of people, particularly in North America, have an idea of Europe and the EU as just a few small, quaint countries and don’t really appreciate how rich it is and how much global power it has. I say this as an American that’s lived in Europe for almost ten years. ??‍♂️

Agreed. I am a US citizen but I have lived in Scotland for 30 years almost. I don't think people in the US understand that the population of the EU is far beyond that of the US and that the EU used to be the world's largest trading bloc (it is the second largest now after the new trading block in Asia). Apple frustrates me in this regard. Even though their research corporation is in Ireland, features on their hardware and software always appear in the US first.

 

[I7guy]

They will rapidly lose market share to Android and become irrelevant in the EU, which is as good as pulling out from the EU. Good outcome.

Or so you believe anyway.

 

[vipergts2207]

Or so you believe anyway.

Do you believe people will continue to buy a phone that is suddenly capable of doing hardly anything? I don't and that would be a bad bet for Apple to make.

 

[Jack Burton]

exactly why is opening iMessage a good thing? to text between your desired app and iMessage? why can't the person your chatting with download and create an account for that app and be done? why does Apple need to sacrifice end to end encryption so that yahoo messenger works with iMessage? will Yahoo Messenger be required to work across all possible chat apps as well??

I feel like you jumped to a lot of conclusions from a two sentence post. I didn't think they would destroy iMessage encryption, just release an app. Perhaps I don't understand the issue at hand. I could have phrased it as "I would like iMessage on my Android phone."

Yahoo messenger is where all the action is nowadays, anyway. apple better jump on that bandwagon. ;-)

 

[Lenny Pelullo Slade]

Agreed. I am a US citizen but I have live din Scotland for 30 years almost. I don't think people in the US understand that the population of the EU is far beyond that of the US and that the EU used to be the world's largest trading bloc (it is the second largest now after the new trading block in Asia). Apple frustrates me in this regard. Even though their research corporation is in Ireland, features on their hardware and software always appear in the US first.

Yes! And sometimes those features don’t even make it to all of the EU. They’re also creating a Core OS team in the Czech Republic yet many features of the OS (and some hardware) aren’t even available here: no predictive text in Czech, no Siri in Czech, HomePods have to be bought through a local company that brings them from Germany.

 

[I7guy]

Do you believe people will continue to buy a phone that is suddenly capable of doing hardly anything? I don't and that would be a bad bet for Apple to make.

It depends on “what hardly” anything means”. Can I do my “stuff” using safari? If so I may stick with the iPhone…using me as an example.

 

[Gfive]

You're projecting ideas onto the EU which are very clearly not how the actual EU really operates if you knew anything about it.

Simply because it is the member governments who jointly decide which areas are to be delegated to the EU and at least many member governments have so far wanted to reserve media legislation for themselves. This would require a unanimous decision, which does not exist at this point.

That is hilariously far off the mark!

Priorities in european media legislation are usually about national and sometimes even regional cultural identity and independence and about concerns with cultural colonialization (which are not entirely unfounded when you're looking at the worldwide dominance of US media).

Money is the least of it. Your somewhat helpless conjecture there mainly demonstrates how little you know about Europe and the EU.

Maybe it's good I left Europe, The Netherlands, 2 years ago. I am not going in discussion with you while you have your mind already set. (normal if you are pro Europe, that's ok!!)

 

[vipergts2207]

It depends on “what hardly” anything means”. Can I do my “stuff” using safari? If so I may stick with the iPhone…using me as an example.

Going off of the original post it means no iMessage, FaceTime, Music, Podcasts, App Store, or Apple Pay. Oh and a 20% price increase to go along with it.

 

[Hunter5117]

Going off of the original post it means no iMessage, FaceTime, Music, Podcasts, App Store, or Apple Pay. Oh and a 20% price increase to go along with it.

I have read both the DMA and DSA extensively and more than one time. I see nothing that indicates that Apple or any "gatekeeper" will be required to provide a version of their apps to run on other devices.

I do see lots of evidence that all of them, on request, will have to open their devices hardware, operating systems, and services to 3rd parties in order that they do not have a competitive advantage from exclusivity of those things.

The 3rd party will still have to implement their version of whatever, but with a great advantage they didn't have to pay for or develop themselves.

Yes, this will cost the gatekeepers a significant amount of money.

On another similar note, I saw that today the EU has already told Elon Musk that his vision for Twitter is not going to work in the EU. It will be interesting how that plays out.

 

[I7guy]

Going off of the original post it means no iMessage, FaceTime, Music, Podcasts, App Store, or Apple Pay. Oh and a 20% price increase to go along with it.

Get a Linux phone then. No android. But I think I could survive on sms.

 

[sudo-sandwich]

20 years ago the internet was a fun timewaster. It was full of small village communities across messageboards, forums and guestbooks ranging from a couple of people to several hundred. Real friendships were formed across these communities, many of which I still foster to this day with people I have never even met.

We had eBaums world and Fark and Something Awful and Hot or Not; Bad blogs and Livejournal. People writing just to kill a few minutes of somebody elses time. That early internet was made for dicking around and skiving off work.

Then around 2013-14 it stopped. Facebook and Twitter supplanted the forums and blogs. Twitter became an endless stream of self-promotion, outrage and discussion about Twitter and Facebook? Well, you've been there.

Normies ruin stuff. But there are always special corners of the Web. Like, there are Discord communities now for all sorts of wacky topics like Crown Vic collectors. Sure there's not a greasy dude running a forum on the Slackware machine he uses as a chair, but now there's a greasy dude moderating a Discord guild and writing complex bots for it.

The web browser has taken over a lot of computing requirements and IT teachers (me for a while) are teaching less computing skills than they did 20 years ago because there is less to learn. This is partly down to companies like Apple and Facebook being overly controlling parents that won't let their kids leave home and learn things on their own.

There's more to learn than ever due to the possibilities of computing expanding. Just because things are higher-layer, e.g. you're working with network streams over WebSockets instead of TCP, doesn't mean less is being done. If anything, there are fewer mundane details in the way than before and a wider variety of things a single person can reasonably do.

My high school fortunately had a computer science course. In my class of 2014, there were maybe 15 people in that course. The following year there were 120.

And before it became synonymous with bad website transitions Flash was brilliant. It was a great starting point for the novice programmer and led to all sorts of creative games.

Losing Flash was a regression in some ways. Nothing really replaced it as an easy tool for games and animations. Was more speaking to the topic of over-centralization, and also, a lot of use cases were done way better without Flash.

We didn't actually need encryption 20 years ago because the internet wasn't an extension of the real world. Nobody put personal information on it; they created a Matrix-esque alias and took on another identity.


The internet went from a fun time waster to a waste of time.

I'm thinking about online banking and shopping, which are legitimately useful and require security. My iPhone's passcode is 222222 cause there's nothing important on it, but my laptop deserves a strong password.