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In Depth Mac OS X Leopard Review

Couple of points....

iQuit said:
It seems as if Apple is now only in it for the money.
Click to expand...

No kidding. It's a business. They've always been in it for the money... if you thought they were in it for the good of mankind, you've fallen for their marketing quite nicely :D

I remember the feeling I used to get from them. I remember the quality they used to retain.
Click to expand...

I get that feeling now. I'm a sucker for that.

As for quality, first off this is a .0 release. You should *always* expect bugs in a .0 release (software or hardware), especially with Apple. No matter how much quality control they do, it happens.

Secondly, Apple has a long history of imperfect hardware, as has been pointed out to me here numerous times.

Thirdly, I actually don't think quality overall is dropping. Yes there are examples of it for such as the cheaper screens in the 20" iMac, but overall no. But if you read a forum such at this one, you rarely ever hear anything but negative comments (especially if you're looking for them), which gives one a bit of a negative impression/attitude.

Not attacking, just a couple of thoughts.
 
iQuit said:
It seems as if Apple is now only in it for the money. I remember the feeling I used to get from them. I remember the quality they used to retain. I hope Apple doesn't drift from their cultural roots. The install DVD is fine, it's the OS itself that is the problem. I don't know if it is the fairly new INTEL architecture, but I never had these many crashes with PPC. Most people are too excited about all the new shiny features that they neglect the fact that Mac OSX is nowhere near as stable as it used to be. You can only expect that from a new architecture that needs to be recoded completely as well as operate instructions entirely differently. I am sure over time that OSX for Intel will become more stable, but for the time being this is the TRUTH. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not.













Click to expand...

Is Onyx now compatible with Leopard? I think that if you have some sort of OS program that isn't (yet) compatible, it may be causing your problems? Just a hunch..

Best of luck..
Jim

PS - Mine is running GREAT.. almost too good! :p
 
iQuit said:
Look at there current commercials and look at their think different commercials. After viewing them, argue with me that Apple hasen't changed the way they view computers. Apple hasn't always been about changing computers. It was changing the way people think and changing they way they USE the computer. As the iPhone demonstrates. I really am not good at stooping down to narrow minded people. I'm an artist, I tend to think about things differently.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but I don't see a change in how Apple views computers from the "Think Different" ad campaign era to today.

Think Different was a branding campaign; as effective as it was, it didn't really say anything about how they viewed computers.

Frankly I'd say the iPhone ads are perhaps some of the most direct and clear ads Apple has ever done. They're some of the first I think I've ever seen from Apple that actually SHOW the interface and interaction with the device and how different it is.

Think about the sorts of computer ads Apple ran back then; if you asked me how Apple viewed computers during that time period, the iMac commercials, etc. from the time period would make me argue that Apple viewed them as appliances and fashion statements (most of the early iMac advertising was pretty much entirely focused on the chassis design).

Are you calling me narrow minded? And what does your being an artist have to do with anything?

And seriously, what point are you trying to make? You seem to be agreeing that the iPhone does demonstrate that Apple is in fact still changing the way people think about computers AND how they use them (because the iPhone in fact is a new kind of device, and people do interact with it in different ways from a typical computer or the typical previous PDA).

I mean, the iPhone and the bigger picture for what it represents for what Apple is working on in the future demonstrates that Apple is continuing to stretch boundaries.

The "Think Different" ad campaign was great to establish the direction Apple was going in, but the iPhone is the culmination of it.

It's one thing to run ads saying "Think Different". It's another to release a product like the iPhone that shows you actually are - and the iPhone is a uniquely Apple product. Microsoft and Palm have been trying for years to push things forward in the mobile space, but they have been churning out the same fundamental UI concepts this entire time (and Palm of course has completely stagnated, while Microsoft hasn't made a significant enhancement to Windows Mobile in years either). It's no surprise that the most excitement right now in the Windows Mobile space is the various plug-ins and front-ends that HTC has been doing.

Also, I can't let this go; Apple hasn't always been about changing computers? Seriously? I mean, I would strongly argue that this was exactly what the Mac was.

I don't think these are mutually exclusive concepts though. In changing computers themselves (the Mac compared to the previous Apple II and IBM PC's), Apple also completely changed how people thought about computers and used them as well.

If you do one, you inherently do the other do, and I think Apple has always and still does care about that entire chain.

The big thing is that the iPhone and iPod Touch are the representations that Apple is taking a more radical change than they have even in the past in terms of what a "computer" really is and how people relate to it. And they're doing it in a way that previous phones, PDA's, UMPC's, Tablet PC's, etc. have not.

-Zadillo
 
Well you are one of the few, Mines great!

iQuit said:
It seems as if Apple is now only in it for the money. I remember the feeling I used to get from them. I remember the quality they used to retain. I hope Apple doesn't drift from their cultural roots. The install DVD is fine, it's the OS itself that is the problem. I don't know if it is the fairly new INTEL architecture, but I never had these many crashes with PPC. Most people are too excited about all the new shiny features that they neglect the fact that Mac OSX is nowhere near as stable as it used to be. You can only expect that from a new architecture that needs to be recoded completely as well as operate instructions entirely differently. I am sure over time that OSX for Intel will become more stable, but for the time being this is the TRUTH. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree wholeheartedly with you. Apple pays more attention to customer satisfaction than what's to be expected from a big company like them. I can get them on the phone for service within seconds after I call and they make products people really like and they don't try and make their products work like Windows which makes them still "Think Different".

As far as Leopard crashing, maybe you should take advantage of Stacks rather than have a messy desktop. :D
Jokes aside, I did a full erase, reformat and install of Leopard on my new iMac. I have had zero issues and I have installed many 3rd party apps and all of Apple's apps and nothing has crashed or freezed or beachballed once. My EYETV 2.5 software (which is expected to crash at times) has worked flawlessly in Leopard.
I don't install those stupid haxies that force the UI to change and maybe that causes some issues. Some developers haven't gotten completely on the Leopard board yet but maybe you should clean your system out and don't do Archive and Install or upgrade and don't install apps that haven't been supported for Leopard. Good luck.
 
nvbrit said:
Free space isn't an issue, but I have heard conflicting reports that you can only boot an OS on an external firewire drive not a USB drive, can anyone confirm this?
Click to expand...

I thought that you could only boot from a Firewire or eSata drive, as the USB elements had to load before booting, am I incorrect?
 
Obviously if you get that "feeling" and are purchasing their products, as well as on these forums. You have fallen for their "marketing" as well. I am not talking about the current product lineup or the current build of OSX. I am talking about the over-all scheme of things. The big boys at Apple have had a change of heart. Their mentality has changed. Mac is no longer the "computer for everyone" just because everyone would not be able to pick one up and use one. Only Mac users can easily adapt to new Apple products. I'm just mainly upset with some of the decisions they have been making. It's not like their previous history. Thats all.



Cloudane said:
Couple of points....



No kidding. It's a business. They've always been in it for the money... if you thought they were in it for the good of mankind, you've fallen for their marketing quite nicely :D



I get that feeling now. I'm a sucker for that.

As for quality, first off this is a .0 release. You should *always* expect bugs in a .0 release (software or hardware), especially with Apple. No matter how much quality control they do, it happens.

Secondly, Apple has a long history of imperfect hardware, as has been pointed out to me here numerous times.

Thirdly, I actually don't think quality overall is dropping. Yes there are examples of it for such as the cheaper screens in the 20" iMac, but overall no. But if you read a forum such at this one, you rarely ever hear anything but negative comments (especially if you're looking for them), which gives one a bit of a negative impression/attitude.

Not attacking, just a couple of thoughts.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the information. But this is exactly what I am talking about on Apple's behalf. In the past you would be able to actually use a feature instead of ignore it. Such as the upgrade feature, why is a feature they implement going to make my computer crash?


HLdan said:
I have to disagree wholeheartedly with you. Apple pays more attention to customer satisfaction than what's to be expected from a big company like them. I can get them on the phone for service within seconds after I call and they make products people really like and they don't try and make their products work like Windows which makes them still "Think Different".

As far as Leopard crashing, maybe you should take advantage of Stacks rather than have a messy desktop. :D
Jokes aside, I did a full erase, reformat and install of Leopard on my new iMac. I have had zero issues and I have installed many 3rd party apps and all of Apple's apps and nothing has crashed or freezed or beachballed once. My EYETV 2.5 software (which is expected to crash at times) has worked flawlessly in Leopard.
I don't install those stupid haxies that force the UI to change and maybe that causes some issues. Some developers haven't gotten completely on the Leopard board yet but maybe you should clean your system out and don't do Archive and Install or upgrade and don't install apps that haven't been supported for Leopard. Good luck.
Click to expand...
 
iQuit said:
Obviously if you get that "feeling" and are purchasing their products, as well as on these forums. You have fallen for their "marketing" as well. I am not talking about the current product lineup or the current build of OSX. I am talking about the over-all scheme of things. The big boys at Apple have had a change of heart. Their mentality has changed. Mac is no longer the "computer for everyone" just because everyone would not be able to pick one up and use one. Only Mac users can easily adapt to new Apple products. I'm just mainly upset with some of the decisions they have been making. It's not like their previous history. Thats all.
Click to expand...

I already have to disagree with this actually.

I would say that Apple is doing a better job than ever of making Macs that non-Mac users can adopt to; I spent a lot of time on the notebookreview.com forums, and the Apple forums there especially are full of PC users who have made the switch to the Mac. Time and time again, one of the big things you hear about is how pleasant it has been for them to transition to the Mac, in a way that the Classic Mac OS never presented.

-Zadillo
 
iQuit said:
Thanks for the information. But this is exactly what I am talking about on Apple's behalf. In the past you would be able to actually use a feature instead of ignore it. Such as the upgrade feature, why is a feature they implement going to make my computer crash?
Click to expand...

Hi, don't misunderstand what was saying, yes an erase, reformat and install is always going to be key to the best computing experience when doing a major upgrade. You can do a very successful upgrade but in order for it to be successful you can't just leave all of your 3rd party apps and downloaded hidden files in place and just hit the upgrade button. The upgrade option is intended for when you have done a clean install of the old OS and then pop in the DVD of the new OS and then hit upgrade and all should be well.

You have to get this thing about, "Apple has turned for the worst" attitude out of your thinking. Is it all about Apple? What about Sony, Microsoft, Panasonic, Bose, TIVO, HP and the rest? These companies are just as big of players in the business of electronics as Apple and yet so many people only expect Apple to be perfect and accept the other companies as being acceptable when there products and service are subpar.

Pick up the phone, call Apple and get the issues straightened out. Their phone customer service is the best and fast.

P.S. Another poster mentioned that you just can't sit down to an Apple computer as new user and run it easily? Windows has a much bigger learning curve for someone that's never used a computer.
 
It seems that a lot of folks are either totally for, or totally against the UI changes in Leopard. I for one welcome the change. As with anything in life, looking at the same old screen gets pretty dull over time (no matter how cool it looks today).

As for functionality, I think your milage may vary. I happen to love Stacks, Spaces, and Quicklook. Coverflow is nice in certain situations, but I don't think it makes a good default view (personal opinion).

There are things in Leopard to like and things to dislike. Hopefully the things that the majority of users dislike will be modified to be more flexible. If Apple never tried new things the OS would still look like with was from the 80's. Like it or not, we are the beta testers for these new features.

-J
 
Flexibility

boster said:
It seems that a lot of folks are either totally for, or totally against the UI changes in Leopard. I for one welcome the change. As with anything in life, looking at the same old screen gets pretty dull over time (no matter how cool it looks today).

As for functionality, I think your milage may vary. I happen to love Stacks, Spaces, and Quicklook. Coverflow is nice in certain situations, but I don't think it makes a good default view (personal opinion).

There are things in Leopard to like and things to dislike. Hopefully the things that the majority of users dislike will be modified to be more flexible. If Apple never tried new things the OS would still look like with was from the 80's. Like it or not, we are the beta testers for these new features.

-J
Click to expand...

Stacks, Spaces, and Quicklook are all great. One hopes that future updates will give us the ability to modify appearances furhter; alter the translucence of the Menu Bar, resize fonts and icons on the side bar, toggle between Stacks behavior and hierarchy of folder contents, make further adjustments to the dock, etc. Overall, this UI is slick, elegant, and more vivid than that of it's predecessors.
 
I'd like to start off saying that the review article was outstanding. Nice to see an in-depth piece by someone who knows something about OSs. Never mind someone who takes time to justify why he doesn't like some feature, or thinks it doesn't work as well as it should... I spent as much time reading some of his background pieces as I did the main review.

Last night I spent some time playing with Leopard at the Apple store, and have to say I agree with a lot of his points. For instance, all the folders being generic blue with a darker blue symbol in them. Unless you're viewing large icons, I had a real time telling what the symbol on the blue folder was. That only saving grace was when I dragged (say) the music folder to the left menu, it went back to the original music-note icon, rather than staying a blue folder.

The dock was OK. the 3D vs flat was a big don't care. A problem in the store - sometimes the reflection of the icon was so bright as to occlude the blue 'active' dot, so half the time I couldn't tell if an app was running. Per of the problem with the space below the icons being used for two purposes (reflection and active app indication)

My biggest disappointment was stacks. I keep a LOT of folders in the rock, and being able to right-click and see a standard finder window is priceless to me. The problem with both the 'curve stack' and the grid presentation - the background presented is translucent. I tried it with the standard 'starry' Leopard background, with Finder windows open, and with a browser window open. Ever time I opened a stack, I couldn't read the file names because the background Mac items (desktop, finder, browser) showed through the stack translucent background.

Even if it wasn't for the translucent problem, the presentation is a UI problem. If you seen an alphabetical list, it's easy to find an item. When you present alphabetical things in a grid, you visually lost the alphabet, and it takes more time to try and find an icon in the grid list. You can configure stacks to be automatic, or to 'always display grid' -I wish 'display finder style' would have also been an option. For me, this really slows down my work flow.

But aside form the dock problems, everything else was either just different or not bad. I could see some instances where cover flow in finder would be handy. Quickview is quicker to see contents that waiting for an app to open. Faster App launch is always nice...

Overall a decent upgrade. The dock problems won't stop me form buying, but look forward to some tweaks that 10.5.1 might provide...
 
johnmcboston said:
Even if it wasn't for the translucent problem, the presentation is a UI problem. If you seen an alphabetical list, it's easy to find an item. When you present alphabetical things in a grid, you visually lost the alphabet, and it takes more time to try and find an icon in the grid list. You can configure stacks to be automatic, or to 'always display grid' -I wish 'display finder style' would have also been an option. For me, this really slows down my work flow.
Click to expand...
In my "Applications" stack, I get used to looking for certain apps in certain positions in the grid. As long as the list is static, I'm OK. But when I add a new app, I'm confused for a while because apps that used to be in the rightmost column are now at the left of the next row. The problem is temporary, of course.
 
Doctor Q said:
In my "Applications" stack, I get used to looking for certain apps in certain positions in the grid. As long as the list is static, I'm OK. But when I add a new app, I'm confused for a while because apps that used to be in the rightmost column are now at the left of the next row. The problem is temporary, of course.
Click to expand...

A definite problem. Something I didn't try - once the grid is up, can you type a letter and have the focus shift to the first app with that letter? (like you can in a finder window)?
 
Stacks

johnmcboston said:
A definite problem. Something I didn't try - once the grid is up, can you type a letter and have the focus shift to the first app with that letter? (like you can in a finder window)?
Click to expand...

Yes, this works with both stacks and the grid.
 
I have not used leopard but will probably be getting it soon. I can't risk destroying all my school work right now. I can make a backup and i always do, but i want to make sure that i don't frack something up while in the middle of the quarter.

I did read through the arstechnica article and I found it extremely interesting. I think it is one of the better written articles I have read. There are a few things that annoy me and a few that I like in leopard.

The good but don't care:
1. The new look. I like that it is at least consistent. I am sure that i can get use to it.
2. Spaces i don't really care about. Maybe i will like and use it maybe not. I have used a few Virtual desktop apps and I could never get use to using them.

The Good:
1. Some of the more geeky stuff like DTrace, all 64-Bit, FSEvents, LLVM, etc.
2. Spotlight sounds much improved, which is nice. I might actually use it on a regular basis. It will probably not replace Quicksilver, but we will see.
3. Core Animations sounds like something that a lot of developers will start to use. Hopefully it does not get abused
4. Quartz GL sounds really cool, now it just needs to be fully implemented. The same goes for resolution independence.
5. Finder... there are some good and REALLY bad things about it.
6. Time Machine looks like it will be useful and i will probably b using it. I will probably go buy another drive so I can do a SuperDuper clone and one for Time Machine.
7. All the new stuff in System preferences looks good (Sharing looks to be improved, along with the network prefs pane).

The Bad:
1. I am not a huge fan of the new folders. We will see how easy they are to recognize at a glance.
2. The way the settings for folders now are global. There is a really good example on the site about it. Having to go in an set the damn thing manually is going to be a real pain in the arse.
3. The fact that when folders are in the dock they show the contents of the folders is a REAL annoyance. All I want to see is that damn folder i put in the dock, not a representation of what is in it. I hope to good that there is a way to turn that off as it will be one of the first things i do.

So like I said at the beginning, I have not actually used leopard but from my reading of the article it looks to be a pretty good update. I think the biggest annoyance for me is actually going to be the dock. It may look pretty but it seems they have actually taken some steps backwards as far as functionality/ease-of-use.
 
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