Intel Announces 45-nm Penryn Processors

[milo]

I repeated stuff that's public record from SEC filings.

The filings said that only gamers want it? They said that a minitower couldn't possibly have similar margins to apple's other boxes? Funny, I must have missed those.

But there are just as many others screaming louder who seem to want Apple to recreate an Alienware system.

Example? Apple already has a box in the same performance/price range as alienware, it's called the mac pro. Apple already has the high end covered, what is needed is a midrange machine.

Both you and AidenShaw point out directly the other issue with the mini-tower release. There are at least three target candidates for the mini-tower and all have different needs and wants.

Those differences don't look that big to me, and they could be covered by BTO options. And what are those three target candidates again?

What credentials can you put forth to back up the claim that Apple's releasing a mini-tower would increase the market share and therefore increase their profit? Why should any of us believe your claims have any merit in comparison to Apple's actions?

We're on a message board. We're all giving our opinions. What the hell are you going on about with credentials? I think that adding a mini tower, if done right, could increase their market share and make them more money. You disagree. Until apple actually does it, we won't know who is right. But insisting that If Apple Does It It Must Be Right is just stupid, they are human and they make mistakes just like anyone else. Look at the appleTV. Look at the backtracking they've done with third party apps on iPhone, missing features on iPod touch, etc. And look at the huge pile of mistakes apple has made since 1984. They're doing well now, but that doesn't automatically mean every decision they make is the right one. If you're going to ignore anything that isn't based on "credentials" you might as well give up on message boards, we're here to discuss the company and the machines, and frankly it's a bit patronizing to keep resorting to the old Apple Knows More Than You cliché.

 

[milo]

My belief is that Apple knows what it's doing, and if there really was non-trivial profit to be had, they would pursue it before going off on tangents like the iPhone and AppleTV.

I assumed when I started this, that like all the other previous times, people were just talking out their rears with no real data or analysis to justify their claims that Apple has no idea what it's doing in the business of making personal computers and they are smarter than the people in Cupertino.

We're talking about a hypothetical product apple could release.

People who think it would help are talking out of their rears.

People who think it would hurt are talking out of their rears.

We can all dig up whatever statistics we want, but when it comes down to it, it's all speculation, even inside of apple. The fact is, nobody knows for sure what would happen if this were released, apple included. If they really could predict the fate of a product before releasing it, they wouldn't make any mistakes, and they do.

We just have different assumption. I assume Apple isn't run by a group of morons. Others assume they know better than the people running a $148B+ company.

Nice straw man there, where did anyone say apple is retarded, a bunch of morons or doesn't know what they are doing?

And as sad as it may make you, the fact is that everyday people with no credentials sometimes are more right than the guys running the big companies. When the appleTV and HiFi shipped (and I'm sure plenty of other failed products), guys with no credentials said they would not do well. Guess what? The guys with no credentials were right and the people running a $148B+ company were wrong.

This isn't about someone thinking they're smarter than the execs. This is about the merits of one specific possibility. And if you're only interested about what those execs think and do, why are you even discussing it on a message board?

 

[ktlx]

And if you're only interested about what those execs think and do, why are you even discussing it on a message board?

Because it pisses me off that every rumor even remotely about desktops always get highjacked by the "Apple mini-tower whiners". We can't even discuss rumors about the future Mac Pro because the threads always get taken over. So once in a while I vent to the thickheads who can't get a grip on the fact that Apple doesn't appear interested in catering to their every whim and needs. Apple is a business, not your mother...

 

[takao]

Because it pisses me off that every rumor even remotely about desktops always get highjacked by the "Apple mini-tower whiners". We can't even discuss rumors about the future Mac Pro because the threads always get taken over. So once in a while I vent to the thickheads who can't get a grip on the fact that Apple doesn't appear interested in catering to their every whim and needs. Apple is a business, not your mother...

yeah that's why i very likely put my money somewhere else next year if i can't get something which fits my needs

just because i use an apple at the time doesn't mean i'm blind or stupid enough to compromise at all costs

edit:that said the mere fact that such a mac comes up in every god damn discussion no matter where (it's way worse on german boards i sometimes visit) if it's forums, blog discussions or news articles/editorals should be good enough indication that there is actually a market for such a configuration

after all it's not much different than pre-mac mini launch where every news about the emac/imac ended up in "why no cheaper not AIO desktop" discussions ... in which i actually was right

 

[milo]

Because it pisses me off that every rumor even remotely about desktops always get highjacked by the "Apple mini-tower whiners". We can't even discuss rumors about the future Mac Pro because the threads always get taken over. So once in a while I vent to the thickheads who can't get a grip on the fact that Apple doesn't appear interested in catering to their every whim and needs. Apple is a business, not your mother...

Nobody is stopping you from discussing anything, discuss away about the future mac pro.

You're right, apple is absolutely a business. And as such, it makes perfect sense to discuss possible future products, whether they be a hypothetical mac pro update or a hypothetical new minitower model.

For the record, I'm also an AAPL shareholder. A big reason I'm interested in seeing them add a new model is because I believe it will make the company, and as a result, me, more money.

PS. You're probably not going to convince anyone by resorting to sandbox ad hominem attacks...but glad you could get that venting out of your system...hope you feel better...

 

[whatever]

Because it pisses me off that every rumor even remotely about desktops always get highjacked by the "Apple mini-tower whiners". We can't even discuss rumors about the future Mac Pro because the threads always get taken over. So once in a while I vent to the thickheads who can't get a grip on the fact that Apple doesn't appear interested in catering to their every whim and needs. Apple is a business, not your mother...

AMEN!!!!

Yes, one of the reasons Apple does not want to sell a mini-tower is because it will cut into iMac line. I believe this to be true. If the iMac wasn't such a good seller they would consider it. Those who really need the ability to expand their systems can buy a Mac Pro.

It's a much more difficult sale for Apple to sell both a mini-tower and a monitor. The same can be said about the Mac Pro, but majority of the people that buy a Mac Pro either own an Apple display or are willing to buy one (hey since I'm spending $3,500 on a system, I might as well splurge and get a 30" monitor too (and that happens more than you know)).

Now do I wish that Apple would make a smaller enclosure. Hell yeah! But have it be a new Mac Pro.

I'm also an Apple Shareholder (paid a whopping $14.50 a share!) and to be honest I think one of their strengths is a simple and straight forward product line. Compare it to their competitors and they win every time. Talk to a normal consumer and explain to them their options on a computer from Apple (you have to be on the website while doing this) and then do the same with Dell (not to pick on them) and you'll see what I mean.

 

[milo]

Talk to a normal consumer and explain to them their options on a computer from Apple (you have to be on the website while doing this) and then do the same with Dell (not to pick on them) and you'll see what I mean.

And when you do this what's your response to "But I already have a monitor...show me the one that has all the iMac stuff but without the monitor?"

 

[whatever]

And when you do this what's your response to "But I already have a monitor...show me the one that has all the iMac stuff but without the monitor?"

Well, I would ask them about the monitor. Is 15" LCD that they got 5 years ago? Is it DVI or VGA? Chances are great that the monitor on the iMac is superior than what they have and in the long run would be cheaper just to get the iMac.

Once I get those answers I would tell them about their options.

1. Mac Mini (are you low end)
2. Mac Pro (are you high end)
3. Laptop (would you like the best of both worlds, desktop monitor and portability?)
4. iMac (would you like to have a dual display setup...)

I guess the point that all of us are trying to get across to the "pro" Mini-Tower people is that just because Apple makes computers doesn't mean that it has to make every type of computer.

Apple products are high end (now don't jump all over me for saying that, but I think you all know what I mean). I'll use the overused car analogy one more time. Sure BMW could manufacture a car to at the same price point as a VW Bug and people would buy it. But it's not BMW's goal to be making VWs, they make BMWs.

In other words, if you want a mini tower, go out and buy a Dell. And then join a Dell forum complaining that they ship their products with Windows instead of OS X. And the first thing that you will hear, is if you want a Mac buy a Mac!

 

[John Musbach]

Intel released 16 of their new Penryn Core 2 Extreme and Xeon processors today. The new chips incorporate the new "Hi-k" metal gate formula and also incorporate a smaller 45-nanometer manufacturing process. These changes deliver faster and more energy-efficient processors.

While they did introduce a Core 2 Extreme Qx9750 quad-core processor with SSE4, our attention has focused on Intel's new Xeon processors, which makes up the bulk of Intel's announcements today.


The new 5400 Xeon chips are compatible with existing Xeon platforms and sets a number of benchmark world records, according to Intel. More data is available at Intel's site.

Apple has been rumored to be buying up the high end 3.2GHz Penryn Xeon processors which feature a faster 1600MHz bus and 12MB of L2 cache for an upcoming Mac Pro revision. Apple currently uses the 5100 Xeon Woodcrest (Quad core Macs) or 5300 Xeon Clovertown (8-core Macs) processors.

Article Link

Hmm, the "compatible with existing Xeon platforms" comment is interesting and makes me wonder if these processors will be simple drop in replacements in current mac pros...

 

[AidenShaw]

Your analogy is perfect - Apple *should* do a Mini-Tower

Sure BMW could manufacture a car to at the same price point as a VW Bug and people would buy it. But it's not BMW's goal to be making VWs, they make BMWs.

Yes, BMW makes the BMW Mini, for $2800 more than a VW Bug.

That sounds like an argument for a premium Mini-Tower from Apple!

 

[takao]

Yes, BMW makes the BMW Mini, for $2800 more than a VW Bug.

That sounds like an argument for a premium Mini-Tower from Apple!

not to forget the BMW 1 series who isn't that far away either


and i have a 22" inch screen

(that said i find the obsession of some mac users with dell rather funny)

 

[ErikAndre]

So... not an expert here... but if an up and coming tuesday MacPro release was around the corner wouldn't that mean Apple usually makes an announcement about it, say around Thursday of the preceding week?

(just a thought?)

:: crossing fingers ::

 

[AidenShaw]

So... not an expert here... but if an up and coming tuesday MacPro release was around the corner wouldn't that mean Apple usually makes an announcement about it, say around Thursday of the preceding week?

Pre-announcements are very rare - Apple likes to be able to say "shipping now". The recent two MBP updates and the MB update are cases in point.

Apple has pre-announced products in new areas, like the Iphone and Apple TV, where there's no existing product to be Osbourned (and it hopes to Osbourne somebody else's product).

Sometimes when there's a big event (MacWorld/WWDC/NAB/...) a product will be announced even if it's not quite ready to ship in volume.

 

[twoodcc]

well, i thought the mac pros would be updated today, but it's now not looking too likely

 

[milo]

Well, I would ask them about the monitor. Is 15" LCD that they got 5 years ago? Is it DVI or VGA? Chances are great that the monitor on the iMac is superior than what they have and in the long run would be cheaper just to get the iMac.

And chances are that they're perfectly happy with the monitor they have and they're not interested in paying for an upgrade they don't need. And chances are they'll end up upgrading their monitor when they want to, when prices drop to the right point for them.

Consumers like options.

Once I get those answers I would tell them about their options.

1. Mac Mini (are you low end)
2. Mac Pro (are you high end)

"Hmmm...$599 for a crippled machine or $2200 for one that's overkill...so show me the midrange one...there isn't one?? You're kidding, right?"

Apple products are high end (now don't jump all over me for saying that, but I think you all know what I mean). I'll use the overused car analogy one more time. Sure BMW could manufacture a car to at the same price point as a VW Bug and people would buy it. But it's not BMW's goal to be making VWs, they make BMWs.

So the mini is high end? While it would be nice if they made one, for the most part those asking for a minitower want a midrange machine. We're asking for something better than apple's cheapest box, not for them to have something on the extreme low end to compete with a $299 emachine.

And as far as I'm concerned "buy a dell" is an admission that apple isn't doing something right. Part of the reason apple's market share is low is because a whole segment of the market would like to buy a mac with those features and price - apple tells them to get lost but dell is happy to sell them the machine they want.

 

[whatever]

And as far as I'm concerned "buy a dell" is an admission that apple isn't doing something right. Part of the reason apple's market share is low is because a whole segment of the market would like to buy a mac with those features and price - apple tells them to get lost but dell is happy to sell them the machine they want.

Alright I give up!

You're right and Apple is 100% wrong. They're totality clueless and don't understand their market. Maybe they should just leave the computer market all together and focus on other consumer electronics.

Hey here's and idea. Buy a Mac Pro today and a week later Apple will either announce or release the Mini-Tower that ever you're been crying for (twice the power and and half the price).

The words Mini-Tower will never pass my finger tips again in this forum!

 

[milo]

They're totality clueless and don't understand their market. Maybe they should just leave the computer market all together and focus on other consumer electronics.

All hail the straw man!

Clarification after the inital post: I'm specifically saying that this is a straw man argument. I'm not saying that this poster is a man made of straw (whatever kind of personal attack that would be?).

 

[whatever]

All hail the straw man!

Well, I do believe that was a personal attack and I request that this person be banned.

 

[milo]

Well, I do believe that was a personal attack and I request that this person be banned.

Here's a better idea...look up what a straw man argument is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Glad I could enlighten.

 

[AidenShaw]

Well, I do believe that was a personal attack and I request that this person be banned.

You have been using straw man arguments, so I don't see this as a personal attack.

It's pretty clear that "straw man" refers to your arguments, not to you personally.

If I were a moderator, I'd give milo a warning to be more careful to criticize the argument and avoid the appearance of criticizing the person, but not ban or even give milo a timeout. I'd also warn you that your last few posts didn't really advance the discussion much.

He shouldn't be penalized just because someone else doesn't understand the meaning of "straw man". It has nothing to do with the Wizard of Oz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


(link collision - simultaneous posts)

 

[whatever]

Here's a better idea...look up what a straw man argument is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Glad I could enlighten.

Milo, just want wanted to say that I took your "straw man" comment out of context and want to apologize (and no this is not some type of layered straw man argument).

When I read your post I didn't actually give much thought to the section of my post that you quoted (I never read the crap that that guy writes). Had I read your entire post, including my own quoted words, I would have understood what you were getting at. My bad.

I no longer feel that this was a personal attack.

And to everyone here I apologize for being off topic.

 

[milo]

No problem, glad it's sorted out. Thanks.

 

[zdobson]

Now that we're back on topic...

I've now given up all hope of getting a new MacPro before MWSF, so what do you think we can expect there? Maybe some type of new business platform? I mean, think of the possibilities for a business when you sync MacPros with Xserve, ACDs (with video conferencing capabilities?) and iPhones rather than dealing with different companies each step of the way (IBM, HP, Blackberry). Since all of these products are due for an update, could they planning to release them together, promoting their ability to integrate?

 

[takao]

Now that we're back on topic...

I've now given up all hope of getting a new MacPro before MWSF, so what do you think we can expect there? Maybe some type of new business platform? I mean, think of the possibilities for a business when you sync MacPros with Xserve, ACDs (with video conferencing capabilities?) and iPhones rather than dealing with different companies each step of the way (IBM, HP, Blackberry). Since all of these products are due for an update, could they planning to release them together, promoting their ability to integrate?

might be a reason but i somehow doubt it .. isn't it more of a consumer show .. announcing a speed bump is one thing but professional plattforms another

 

[whatever]

might be a reason but i somehow doubt it .. isn't it more of a consumer show .. announcing a speed bump is one thing but professional plattforms another

No Mac World is "The Show".

The good news is that if Apple is holding off for Mac World to update the Mac Pro then we're in for a few surprises, such as a new smaller enclosure that doesn't weigh a ton.

Mac World would be the perfect stage also to launch the new Glass ACD with built in iSight.

I was wondering what products would be launched at Mac World (iLife '08-out; Leopard-Out; iWork '08-out; iMac-Out; iPods-out; iPhone-possible storage increase and the SDK; MacBooks-out; ACD-need to go glass; Mac Pro-read this entire thread; Mac Book Pro - needs work; Apple TV-may it not be forgotten).