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Denial and rejection is just the first stage of several most people have to go through with changes like this before they reach acceptance and buy one.

Here are some forum comments in 2005 when the rumors started kicking around of Macs switching to Intel processors from PPC (Look familiar?):

"so much for Apple being better due to its architecture. Now it will be pure eyecandy and a version of Linux."

"Damnit i will never buy apple again.. ever... if this is true i am very sad... and how will i get new software for my computer. who will make outdated stuff... i hate apple... to court i say to court"

"although and i still wouldnt buy another apple.. maybe they will have intel make an all new processor.. but i hate intel and damn.. this really sucks"

"why would apple do this after intel is stealing their design ideas??? mac mini intel mini ahhhh"

"this is BS if this proves to be a legit story i will eat **** and film it with print out of this post strapped to my head. apple has no reason to switch to X86, x86 has been just as stangnent as IBM has been if not more, the only real jump is dual core, and IBM cant be far behind, and with the low clock speed of the pentium D i dont see apple switching to intel."

"Wow like people haven't started THIS a bajillion times Apple-Intel rumors have been around as long as Apple. Come on, you guys. THINK!!!!!!! Alright, so suppose that Apple decides to switch to Intel. Of course, all that software (Photoshop, Illustrator, GRAPHIC DESIGN SOFTWARE, any software really) would have to be rewritten for x86. OS X would run on Intel. Now, in the year or so it would take to rewrite all this software, and change production of the computers and alter them, how many people would buy a PowerPC based computer that will have no software or support in the future? None. Come on people, we know you like to entertain these ideas, but its just not going to happen. I'll eat my hat if it does."

"If Apple switched it would be suicide for the company. No matter how fast an x86 processor is just imagine how slow, slow, slow PPC emulation would be! Have you run VPC lately?"

"Hmmm....is this fact or FUD??? I seriously doubt Apple is going to make a
switch this late in the game.
IBM has done a real good job with
PowerPC and it would be crazy to switch to the x86 architecture
now."

"Last weeks news. This story was all over last week, it's crap. Jobs will never allow the Mac interface to be ported to Intel, period. They are talking with Intel about using their next gen WIFI chipset. MacNN has much better coverage."

"h0ax!
This isn't the first time and the last time Apple is using C|Net for a hoax. Official well known sources who are always right know that Apple is in talk with Intel, but then about new iPod processors and chips for it's Xserve Raid. So this message may go to the trash. Apple would NEVER switch to Intel, because it's very very expensive and they will loose a lot of market share. Also IBM processors are still faster than Intel/AMD dual core chips, but Apple only wants more, because IBM doesn't do what they promise, but plans for the future show that IBM will reach 6 GHz in 2007 and Intel won't be there then. And that's the date Apple's PowerMac should switch to Intel, I don't think so."


And many, many, many more.

http://news.cnet.com/Apple-to-ditch-IBM,-switch-to-Intel-chips/2100-1006_3-5731398.html


Differences is you have mostly fanboys who scream with no underlining understanding of the technical side other than Apple marketing BS and what their God Steve Jobs says. If you noticed many of those same people the second Steve Jobs said otherwise they loved intel it is the best thing ever ect.

This time you have the fanboys group saying never going to happen (and people the technical who understand the technical side not going to happen and here is why. If it does happen it is also stupid.
 
But regardless of the fab and what not. it comes down to what is available right now to the use for performance.

I'm well aware of the defficiencies of x86. not trying to sound like its the best thing ever. We've seen intel seriously goof up before (Pentium4's were a disaster).

I'm also aware that this might change dramatically within the next, 2, 5 or 10 years.

But we can only go by what is currently out, and what is in the immediate pipeline. And based on that. What I stated still holds true.

p.s. I am actually enjoying this discussion. I think it's rather informative and there's no ill will or anger behidn it.

The problem with x86, is that despite trying to 'catch up', fundamentally, it still has a giant legacy overhead to maintain backwards compatibility going back decades, in addition, people have often said that 'x86 is basically RISC anyway nowadays', that is true because of extensions, which again runs on overhead, so that overhead layer will always exist, which is why a pure RISC arm system at an absolute level, remains superior to it, when all else is equal.
 
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Basically, if Apple switches to ARM, it will kill the Mac. End of story.

If they completely drop Intel, yes. The market share gains they've enjoyed will be wiped out, though there will be some folks who will still buy them (not me).

I think what will occur more realistically is that apple is going to roll out a 12"arm based laptop to compete against the chromebooks.

If that is that is the case, I think this is the first time apple is looking to compete at the bottom, and the results will not be pretty imo.
 
Apple wouldn't want to alienate developers again.

Most developers do not know or care which CPU platform they are compiling for or deploying to. As long as Xcode hides the details, this would be absolutely transparent to developers as well as to end users.
 
Perhaps Intel responded out of fear? With the news of this, i'm certain that many overseas venders are lobbing for the productions jobs this switch will bring.
 
I think what will occur more realistically is that apple is going to roll out a 12"arm based laptop to compete against the chromebooks.

Definitely agree on the 12" ARM-based laptop. But I doubt they will position it as competing against the Chromebook. It actually just seems like a natural hybrid of the iPad and the MacBook Air, to me.
 
If they completely drop Intel, yes. The market share gains they've enjoyed will be wiped out, though there will be some folks who will still buy them (not me).

I think what will occur more realistically is that apple is going to roll out a 12"arm based laptop to compete against the chromebooks.

If that is that is the case, I think this is the first time apple is looking to compete at the bottom, and the results will not be pretty imo.

Even if Apple loses 50% absolute market share, if it gains 62% in margins, it still is a win for them. Plus, Apple now has more control, they would not tied to Intel's roadmap anymore. This could lead to many interesting developments between ios and the Mac.
 
The problem with x86, is that despite trying to 'catch up', fundamentally, it still has a giant legacy overhead to maintain backwards compatibility going back decades, in addition, people have often said that 'x86 is basically RISC anyway nowadays', that is true because of extensions, which again runs on overhead, so that overhead layer will always exist, which is why pure RISC arm systems at an absolute level, remains superior to it, when all else is equal.

yes, but if we wanted to switch to Risc, we'd be running a similar problem. from a legacy issue there would be an entire what, 3 or so decades of legacy programs that rely on those extension that would be rendered obsolete.

it would be a fantastic hurdle to overcome. it is one thing to do it in a new product category (IE Mobile devices using Arm when mobile devices were basically a newish thing), to the Personal computer architecture where its very likely that most people are running software that even today could span many decades.

For such a change, to occur we do run back to the original point though. You'd have to do a timed phase out where the new architecture would essentially need to emulate the old till the majority of usage was redone or made new for the new one.

I do not believe that we are in a place, where Arm is yet ready to take on that workload.

I can't speak for 5 to 10 years down the line and i"m not trying to though. this is the immediate pipeline issue.

Which is why I do not get why this discussion keeps coming up every 6 months from these so called analysts. It's like they don't actually understand technology and think purely from a financial statement mentality.


If apple is looking for a more immediate, and safer move for maximizing profits, then they woudl do better to go over the AMD camp in the meantime. it might even provide them access to the Amr path, and would absolutely give their mobile devices an incredible boost in GPU performance since the AMD APU's graphics have been better overall than intel's
 
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yes, it IS strong

present tense

Apple is obsessed with profitability and so far, the most expensive component on a Mac is the processor made by Intel


the guy is just blind and ignoring the threat :rolleyes:
 
It would be a good idea for Apple to just use ARM in the new super slim MacBook Airs and keep the rest of the line Intel! A version of OS X coded for ARM just for the super mobile MacBook line would allow iOS apps to run on said OS X

Apple could have done this years ago on Intel chips. They could make it available now on Intel Macs. There's an emulator, no simulator:rolleyes: that already runs iOS software on OS X for the programmers coding iOS apps. That could be repurposed, polished up for general use, and there it is. No ARM chip required.

OR, all iOS programmers could "just recompile" their iOS apps to run on OS X. Just ask Nutjob. Apparently so many of them don't want the added revenue or are too lazy to "just recompile" their iOS apps for OS X.:rolleyes:

And I just can't get how this vision of ARM-based Airs coexisting with Intel-based Macs (otherwise) is not an explicit shot of the dreaded "fragmentation". There would almost certainly be OS X software that would not run on the ARM-based machines. It would be "For OS X" but "on Intel-based Macs Only". Maybe vice-versa too? Can we actually picture Apple doing that?

And, as someone astutely asked several pages back, how do we end up with Apple pricing a 128GB Air at $500 vs. a 128GB iPad priced at $700?

All I see in this concept is corporate benefits of greater profitability, better product development timeline control and a little more "big reveal" surprise. I am not seeing the consumer benefits. If it's about cheaper Macs, I don't know how cheaper is compatible with fattening margins. As others have offered, Intel makes cheaper chips than those Apple choses to use now. If it's about running iOS software on Airs, maybe there's a little something there? But why not repurpose the emulator/simulator? Or "just recompile" those apps? Or buy a keyboard case for an iPad? After that is just falls off for me.

Losing the ready availability to use Windows when needed- or sometimes necessary- is a massive negative. Even if "we" can all get behind the switch, as soon as a Mac can't run Windows, those that must run Windows software or connect to Windows networks have little choice but ALSO buying a Windows machine. If you have 2 laptops, are you really going to take BOTH with you when you'll have to interface with Windows in some way as part of the trip? Probably not. Other than corporate benefits for Apple, I just don't see it.
 
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Apple is obsessed with profitability and so far, the most expensive component on a Mac is the processor made by Intel
Yes, and its the Intel CPU that made the Mac as popular as it is today, remove that and we're back to the PPC days where there was great difficulty attracting developers, software and getting chipsets updated and rolled and in quantity.
 
yes, but if we wanted to switch to Risc, we'd be running a similar problem. from a legacy issue there would be an entire what, 3 or so decades of legacy programs that rely on those extension that would be rendered obsolete.

it would be a fantastic hurdle to overcome. it is one thing to do it in a new product category (IE Mobile devices using Arm when mobile devices were basically a newish thing), to the Personal computer architecture where its very likely that most people are running software that even today could span many decades.

For such a change, to occur we do run back to the original point though. You'd have to do a timed phase out where the new architecture would essentially need to emulate the old till the majority of usage was redone or made new for the new one.

I do not believe that we are in a place, where Arm is yet ready to take on that workload.

I can't speak for 5 to 10 years down the line and i"m not trying to though. this is the immediate pipeline issue.

Which is why I do not get why this discussion keeps coming up every 6 months from these so called analysts. It's like they don't actually understand technology and think purely from a financial statement mentality.

Well, if you look at the 90s, for businesses running mission-critical apps, on various unix servers featuring different architectures such as sparc, power, etc. one of the solutions which came about, and is still huge, is Java. If you look at web app frameworks, they are inherently cross-platform, like Java too (in fact, twitter uses a combination of scala, java and ruby, for instance). People said that businesses would never develop custom apps for 'toys' like ios, yet they did. So, you can still have a front-end with any device, and the back-end would be in something like Java, which it mostly is now.
 
Well, if you look at the 90s, for businesses running mission-critical apps, on various unix servers featuring different architectures such as sparc, power, etc. one of the solutions which came about, and is still huge, is Java. If you look at web app frameworks, they are inherently cross-platform, like Java too. People said that businesses would never develop custom apps for 'toys' like ios, yet they did. So, you can still have a front-end with any device, and the back-end would be in something like Java, which it mostly is now.
yup. I work in the field (i'm not a developer and dont want to sound it), where we use a similar style framework (Progress Openedge 4gl) that can essentially run on a wide range of platforms, from SPARC to RISC to PPC and in between)

but there is overhead to this and for performance values you'd have to weight if it's worth it. We know for example that if we had written our stuff directly in something like C+ or assembly that the performance would be that much greater. But we chose to use a language that had a runtime that could be ported easily. Our code itself can run on any platform with little to no changes other than what version of the runtime we are on.

It's like the argument between DX and Mantle though. Yes Mantle is proving to be absolutely dominant in many metrics, BUT its tied exclusively to one hardware platform.

its a choice you have to make at the development level.
 
Here is the difference now in modern times. Apple has a large amount of IOS apps, which they could easily make work on an OS X arm version. And in addition, web apps are much more popular now than in the past era.

And the benefit of this is...what? As a consumer, I've already got an ipad. I can buy a keyboard for it for less than $100. Why would I spend a bunch of money to buy a computer than can only run the apps I already run on my ipad?
 
You know OS X could run just fine on ARM if you don't mind your single core performance being about that of an Ivy Bridge core I3. This way Apple can ensure they go back to the good'ol days of nearly always having slower machines than the Windows world.

You do realize that the thermal/power envelope the A8X lives in is minute (5mm!, a few watt, no throttling) and the clock rate very low. You think that's impossible to scale up? Why?

Apple is not letting go of Intel in the high end for sure, but there is a high probability of a $700-$800 retina 12 retina laptop that runs either OSX or an extended IOS in the near future. Seeing that guys face confirms it for me ;-).
 
I've already got an ipad. I can buy a keyboard for it for less than $100.

Speaking from personal experience, iPad + keyboard != MacBook Air. OS X is much more highly optimized for keyboard interaction than iOS is. I tried to use my iPad with a bluetooth keyboard as a laptop replacement for a while, but ultimately switched back to the laptop. The iPad (and iOS in general) is great for consuming data but it is terrible for production. OS X is much stronger in that department.
 
And the benefit of this is...what? As a consumer, I've already got an ipad. I can buy a keyboard for it for less than $100. Why would I spend a bunch of money to buy a computer than can only run the apps I already run on my ipad?

You use the ipad to consume content, you use the mac to produce it, like for editing videos, managing your content library, etc. Apple already makes apps for that, and would port them, and in addition, they'd also heavily pressure mac app store participants to port to ARM too.
 
But will Apple use strong-ARM tactics to make things even more advantageous for their products?

:D

Time will tell...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StrongARM

The StrongARM is a family of computer microprocessors developed by Digital Equipment Corporation and manufactured in the late 1990s which implemented the ARM v4 instruction set architecture. It was later sold to Intel in 1997, who continued to manufacture it before replacing it with the XScale in the early 2000s.
 
And the benefit of this is...what? As a consumer, I've already got an ipad. I can buy a keyboard for it for less than $100. Why would I spend a bunch of money to buy a computer than can only run the apps I already run on my ipad?

Apple would likely do what they did last time and ensure at least that their first party applications were ported over in full. You would get your ful ldesktop applications from Apple as you have today, just running on the different platform.

Not forcing you to use iOS apps on a personal computer style device.
 
Since Apple doesn't bottom fish, one wonders what the "value added" use case is for an Apple ARM laptop or desktop (maybe not Mac). One would expect it to have some sort of touch screen or pad and physical keyboard, and not necessarily a mouse like pointing device. Possibly an optional stylus.

I would at least think the rumors of form factors in Air, iMac, Mini to be the R&D cases, but clearly an emphasis on clamshell air like as the primary case.

That would utilize the existing software with minor OS level tweaks.

Rocketman

discuss

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture

Has not been updated to include the rumored hardware.

Follow up, stylus confirmed by rumor:
https://www.macrumors.com/2015/01/18/kuo-ipad-pro-stylus/
 
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and in addition, they'd also heavily pressure mac app store participants to port to ARM too.

...or those developers just abandon their Intel Mac apps as many did with PPC-based apps, never bothering to update them to an ARM version. It has to be worth it to developers to go to the trouble. Within this thread, we're now envisioning some Macs with ARM and others with Intel. Maybe if Apple can sell huge volumes of these ARM-based Macs, developers might deem that worth the effort. How many Airs "as is" have been sold to date?
 
Yes, and its the Intel CPU that made the Mac as popular as it is today, remove that and we're back to the PPC days where there was great difficulty attracting developers, software and getting chipsets updated and rolled and in quantity.

And it is the ARM chip that makes Apple what it is today.

ARM is a FAR more popular CPU throughout the world than x86, with many more developers.
 
...Apple would still port all their apps, and in addition, open-source apps like VLC, or Transmission which already work on arm linux, would be quickly ported too...Apple would of course push developers through the mac app store to port their apps to ARM too.

I have dozens of OS X apps and utilities I rely on every day. Even if Apple ported all *their* apps to ARM OS X tomorrow, the result would be a hobbled, limited ecosystem that would take years to recover.

It's not that it *can't* be done -- Apple has changed Mac CPUs twice already. But the benefit must clearly outweigh the cost and risk. What is the gigantic benefit with ARM OS X that justifies this cost and risk? If the transition took 5 years, during that period x86 is getting better in terms of performance and power consumption.

Besides the dual CPU idea of merging iOS and OS X, the only other reason I could see is if Apple foresees a *major* performance and power advantage with ARM. But many, many companies have gone down in flames betting against Intel.

Still it is theoretically possible. The x86 instruction set architecture and supporting microarchitecture are fiendishly complex, and getting more so all the time. Some researchers believe that only 10% of a modern x86 transistor and power budget is spent on execution. The other 90% is spent on supporting out-of-order superscalar methods needed to provide competitive performance. This is why a i7-4790K CPU burns 88 watts to produce 117 GFLOPS. By contrast a DSP chip using VLIW methods can produce higher performance at a fraction of the power.

It is conceivable Apple foresees Intel hitting a wall like Motorola did with the 68k family, and wants to start exploring alternatives. There are some researchers that believe significant exploitable gains still exist in single-core performance -- provided the instruction set architecture is changed. However many have felt that way in the past and look where Intel is today.
 
If you've read the Jobs' biography, you know there's no way they're making that mistake again. The benefits of full control and cost cutting are small. Apple wouldn't want to alienate developers again. Intel does the r&d, drive the chip market and sells them at a relatively cheap unit cost. Apple has much bigger problems on their hands than their desktop/laptop processors.

Speaking of 'developers', I'd say by this point, more people are using the mac to develop ios apps and web apps than mac apps proper. All of those development tools and frameworks, still run on ARM. Also, of course, Java.

For mac developers, if they make use of mostly open-source libraries (and standard mac libraries) like most do, they'll be easily recompiled, as they have already, for linux, for instance. So, for typical apps, they can be recompiled for ARM.

----------

I have dozens of OS X apps and utilities I rely on every day. Even if Apple ported all *their* apps to ARM OS X tomorrow, the result would be a hobbled, limited ecosystem that would take years to recover.

It's not that it *can't* be done -- Apple has changed Mac CPUs twice already. But the benefit must clearly outweigh the cost and risk. What is the gigantic benefit with ARM OS X that justifies this cost and risk? If the transition took 5 years, during that period x86 is getting better in terms of performance and power consumption.

Besides the dual CPU idea of merging iOS and OS X, the only other reason I could see is if Apple foresees a *major* performance and power advantage with ARM. But many, many companies have gone down in flames betting against Intel.

Still it is theoretically possible. The x86 instruction set architecture and supporting microarchitecture are fiendishly complex, and getting more so all the time. Some researchers believe that only 10% of a modern x86 transistor and power budget is spent on execution. The other 90% is spent on supporting out-of-order superscalar methods needed to provide competitive performance. This is why a i7-4790K CPU burns 88 watts to produce 117 GFLOPS. By contrast a DSP chip using VLIW methods can produce higher performance at a fraction of the power.

It is conceivable Apple foresees Intel hitting a wall like Motorola did with the 68k family, and wants to start exploring alternatives. There are some researchers that believe significant exploitable gains still exist in single-core performance -- provided the instruction set architecture is changed. However many have felt that way in the past and look where Intel is today.

I'd imagine most of those apps are available on the mac app store? Apple has a lot more influence now with regards to mac app development, than they did before. Apple would pressure them to recompile. What made Intel great, is that they produced high-volume low-cost chips. which eventually allowed for their fabs to also become the best, yet if you look at the state of the world today, it's arm which produces the most high-volume, low-cost, power-efficient chips, and arm fabs are growing at a faster rate than intel, they still haven't caught up to intel yet, but the direction is clear.

----------

...or those developers just abandon their Intel Mac apps as many did with PPC-based apps, never bothering to update them to an ARM version. It has to be worth it to developers to go to the trouble. Within this thread, we're now envisioning some Macs with ARM and others with Intel. Maybe if Apple can sell huge volumes of these ARM-based Macs, developers might deem that worth the effort. How many Airs "as is" have been sold to date?

Or this goes back to the old question, why would people develop for apple computers anyway, when the market share is so small, and only develop for windows instead? Same for criticisms about the early ios app store, compared to windows mobile, etc. The reality is that it's vice versa. Companies build a product that people want, for whatever reason, in Apple's case, it's the experience and integrated ecosystem, and then people develop apps for the system.
 
Here we go again...

Thing is, Apple have changed their Mac processors twice before. From 68xxx to PowerPC and then to x86. So I for one wouldn't be surprised if they decided to do it again. Especially if it means they have full control over the design and development (you know how they like to control everything).

However, in my opinion, a change to ARM would spell the end of the road for the professional users of desktop Macs.

Also if you think a change to ARM would mean lower prices, then you need a reality check - as many other posters have said, having their own chips would mean even higher margins, assuming they could sell the units, which I've no doubt they could. Most of the software Apple thinks people (read consumers) need is already running on their iPads/iPhones, so show them it all now also runs on their new big screen desktop or mega iPad and I'm sure they'll get loads of takers.

Apple is now a big consumer electronics company - yes they still make desktop Macs but it is not their main source of revenue any longer...
 
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