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Intel Developing Next PowerMac for Apple?

rhashem said:
Vista won't use EFI, because then it wouldn't work on existing machines. Apple has already said that the new Macs won't use EFI. Since Apple has said you can install Windows on the new Macs, it's almost certain that it will use a PC BIOS.
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Wrong on all counts.

Windows won't be dependent on any particular ROM, unless MS becomes incredibly stupid in the near future. Like all prior releases, ROM-dependent features (usually just power management things) will be used via device drivers. Motherboard and firmware makers will design drivers for their chipsets (which may use BIOS or EFI or anything else), and Microsoft will bundle drivers for the most popular chipsets, just like they do now.

As for Apple using EFI, where did you get the idea they said this? Those sources that claim to have any knowledge are saying that it won't be OpenFirmware or BIOS. The only official word is that developers shouldn't make any assumptions. before the new systems ship.

And Apple did not say you'll be able to boot Windows. They said they are not going to attempt to take extraordinary measures to prevent you from trying to install it.
rhashem said:
Of course, who cares? The BIOS is just a bit of code that's never called after startup on a modern OS!
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This is also untrue. The BIOS is used for power management on modern systems. Whenever you put a Windows PC to sleep, or monitor laptop battery usage, or switch the CPU into a power-saving mode, that's using the motherboard's ROM code.
 
T'hain Esh Kelch said:
This is a very good move from Apples side, except for the part that Macintosh is one step less from being so special.

People who has voted negative for this, really dont have a clue about what this is all about.
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Their hardware isn't special anymore :p Well at least the guts of the machine aren't. You will never mistake a Dell for an Apple. :)
 
SiliconAddict said:
Their hardware isn't special anymore :p Well at least the guts of the machine aren't. You will never mistake a Dell for an Apple. :)
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I don't know. If this rumor turns out to be true, what will be the difference? If you buy one of these Intel Macs and transplant the motherboard into a generic case, will there be anything at all different from a generic PC?

The way things are looking, I'm not at all pleased with what I see. If this rumor ends up being true, then the nay-sayers are correct and Apple will be selling nothing more than generic PC's with generic PC motherboards. And at massively inflated prices (since they're not about to give up their 50% margins.)

Removing PS/2 ports and adding FireWire is not much of a distinction. And the TPM chip (apparently, the only thing prevening Mac OS from running on existing PCs) will be bypassed pretty quickly (it's already been bypassed on all the existing developer-releases of Mac OS.)

I sure hope Jobs knows what he's doing, because from over here, it looks like Apple is about to lose the entire Mac hardware platform to the PC makers. I don't think they're going to survive selling nothing but iPods and software.
 
woolfgang said:
I agree with some, and disagree with others. Most PC's still don't have Firewire and use Serial connections. That's Old.
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I've bought 3 PC motherboards in the last year, and all have had Firewire on board. You don't find it in the cheapo PCs, but all the midrange PowerMac level stuff has Firewire these days.

As for serial connections --- what harm does it do if its there and you don't use it? Lots of people need serial ports for certain hardware that doesn't have USB ports (I'm thinking stuff like PIC controllers, etc). Certainly, its better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it. I wish my new PowerMac had PCI slots, but Apple apparently thought that they were "obsolete", and should be gotten rid of, just like serial ports!
 
Is there any reliable information that tells us the next PowerMacs will be any less amazing because Intel worked on the motherboard? Do we know that this will stop Apple from doing cool things for us that they would have liked to do? Will this allow other PC makers to steal Mac OS X?

No to all of the above. So it doesn't worry me. If Intel delivers the best quality product in the least time and lowest cost, then that works for me.

Plus, if Intel's designing a mobo for the PowerMac, that suggests that Apple's NOT using some of-the-shelf PC motherboard that wouldn't even NEED to be designed. Not that I ever considered that likely.
 
shamino said:
Windows won't be dependent on any particular ROM, unless MS becomes incredibly stupid in the near future. Like all prior releases, ROM-dependent features (usually just power management things) will be used via device drivers.
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The kernel cannot be completely ROM-dependent. The ROM defines certain things that the computer needs to boot properly (memory maps, etc). You cannot boot XP on an EFI machine, and while Microsoft might make an EFI version of Vista, there will be a regular BIOS version as well.

As for Apple using EFI, where did you get the idea they said this?
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It's the rumors on the internets. In any case, if Apple was going to use EFI, it would have been in the Intel developer machines. Hardware developers need to know what kind of firmware is in the machine, and unless there is a very secret set of EFI-based Intel Macs at NVIDIA and ATI, you can bet that at least the first wave of Macs next year will use a regular-old BIOS.

And Apple did not say you'll be able to boot Windows. They said they are not going to attempt to take extraordinary measures to prevent you from trying to install it.
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Using EFI would certainly be an extarordinary measure preventing you from installing Windows! If the Macs used EFI, Windows just wouldn't install on it, any more than it would install on a G5 PowerMac. If that was the case, saying "we won't stop you from installing Windows" would be a meaningless statement. They wouldn't have said it then.

This is also untrue. The BIOS is used for power management on modern systems. Whenever you put a Windows PC to sleep, or monitor laptop battery usage, or switch the CPU into a power-saving mode, that's using the motherboard's ROM code.
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True. Forgot about power management.
 
Marx55 said:
Dell is expensive crappy stuff!
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I just bought a Dell for work that included a Dell mini tower, 17" flat panel display, keyboard, mouse, etc for $475 after taxes and shipping. Mind you it was a 2.53GHz Celeron, 256MB RAM, 40GB HD but I thought that was a great deal.

Dell may be crappy but they can be very inexpensive.
 
shamino said:
I don't know. If this rumor turns out to be true, what will be the difference? If you buy one of these Intel Macs and transplant the motherboard into a generic case, will there be anything at all different from a generic PC?
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Are the PowerMacs so different as it is? Aside from the Apple motherboard and chipset, its more or less the same as my Athlon64 machine. PCI-E, Firewire, SATA, etc. All open standards, all OEM parts, not much different then what you find in a Dell. I'm sure Apple's case design will continue to be pretty spiffy, but I'm sure its not the hardware that made you buy a Mac?
 
shamino said:
I don't know. If this rumor turns out to be true, what will be the difference? If you buy one of these Intel Macs and transplant the motherboard into a generic case, will there be anything at all different from a generic PC?

The way things are looking, I'm not at all pleased with what I see. If this rumor ends up being true, then the nay-sayers are correct and Apple will be selling nothing more than generic PC's with generic PC motherboards. And at massively inflated prices (since they're not about to give up their 50% margins.)

Removing PS/2 ports and adding FireWire is not much of a distinction. And the TPM chip (apparently, the only thing prevening Mac OS from running on existing PCs) will be bypassed pretty quickly (it's already been bypassed on all the existing developer-releases of Mac OS.)

I sure hope Jobs knows what he's doing, because from over here, it looks like Apple is about to lose the entire Mac hardware platform to the PC makers. I don't think they're going to survive selling nothing but iPods and software.
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Keep in mind that its very possible the first couple generations of Macs may very well be just generic PC hardware. Apple needs to get a foothold in the x86 market. Once things stabilize and they start to put of the numerous fires that are burning at the moment they may very well turn to developing their own wares. Remember that there is a fairly intensive learning curve for Apple here. They are use to designing around PPC architectures. This migration isn't going to be done with the transition of hardware and software. It’s going to be done once Apple is over the learning curve as well. Something that I'm sure Intel is helping Apple with.

As for OS X being tied to the hardware. I’m not worried at all. Why? Because we haven’t see the final release of TPM-ized OS X. I would not be at all surprised if Apple isn’t showing its hand yet. TPM consists of several technologies. My guess is that Apple has only released some of the updates to software developers. Remember by and large TPM’s should be ubiquitous to applications and such. They very well could implement something much more robust when the first x86 Macs are released. Who know the word of the day at Apple could be kernel level encryption or something.
Heck they could very well place an update for the TPM with every patch they release, every app they release, everything they release. Making it a complete and total PITA for pirates every time they come out with a new [insert something here.]
At the end of the day It’s not about keeping everyone from loading OS X on their generic x86 hardware its about keeping everyone but the geeks of the world from loading it. I highly doubt ma and pa bumpkin are going to go out on Bittorrent, download an ISO, burn it to DVD, backup their data, and install OS X. Apple has so much room to grown right now they aren't, or I hope they aren’t, going to be concerned with 2% of Windows\Unix users who want to be the rebel.
They are interested in that 90% of the user market who are pissed with adware, viruses, etc and want something new. *dawns his corn hat and white suit* Hi. Let me tell you about OS X. :cool:
 
sw1tcher said:
What's so funny about that? It is well known in the PC world that Intel motherboards are rock solid. Sure, they might not be as feature-rich as those from ASUS, Abit, MSI, et al., but they are solid and stable.

Intel's expertise in mobo designs would be a big plus for Apple.
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Sorry, we were talking about the best mobos on earth, not the most rock-solid. I could think of several other mobo companies that could be in the running for "best mobo on earth" but none of them are intel.
 
shamino said:
You (and a lot of people) seem to think Apple will be able to take over the world if they'd simply jump on the bandwagon and sell the same PC's that everybody else has been selling for the past 20 years.

I'm sorry but the logic makes absolutely no sense. Nobody is going to pay extra for an Apple computer, just to be able to run Windows on it.
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To start with, our University is just waiting for such multi-OS Mactel to buy several hundreds of them to replace Windoze stuff that does not run Mac and Mac stuff that does not run Windows. Then start multiplying...
 
shamino said:
I'm sorry but the logic makes absolutely no sense. Nobody is going to pay extra for an Apple computer, just to be able to run Windows on it.
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What??? I completely disagree with your logic. I would, in fact, be willing to pay some extra for an Apple machine that can capably run Windows. I don't know if Apple is going to take over the world - let's face it, people are cheap and a Windows machine is 'good enough' for most things. But for me, I would love to have the elegance and stability of a Mac OS X machine, coupled with the ability to run effectively some of the scientific and engineering applications that are only available on a Windows machine.
 
shamino said:
So you believe Vista will require all customers to upgrade their ROMs from BIOS to EFI? I wonder how many copies will be sold when everybody is told they need a whole-system upgrade.

I don't think you realize what you wrote.
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Yeah I do. EFI is required for 64-bit intel itanium processors, and will be used in Vista. I didn't say that EFI will be required exclusively per se, but it will be used. BIOS will be slowly grandfathered out, most likely non-existant by the next version of Windows after Vista :p http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/platform/firmware/default.mspx

Also I would like to point all the people who claimed I was incorrect to this article.
Microsoft has also changed the boot manager in build 5231, providing a new layer of abstraction that supports both traditional BIOS ROMs (Basic Input/Output System ROMs) and the NVRAM/EFI (non-volatile RAM / Extensible Firmware Interface) boot configuration mechanism used, for example, by systems with 64-bit Intel Itanium processors.
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I thought one of the reasons mac's are so good and efficient is because both the Hardware & OS are made by the same company (Apple).

So now isn't this going to be a bad thing.
 
Marx55 said:
To start with, our University is just waiting for such multi-OS Mactel to buy several hundreds of them to replace Windoze stuff that does not run Mac and Mac stuff that does not run Windows. Then start multiplying...
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Which university do you work for?
 
The indication that the demands on Apple's resources is the reason to let Intel develop the PM MBs is interesting. It shows that Apple is ready to work closer with Intel than originally thought. I have no doubt that Intel is going to put a lot of effort into the project so they can get more business down the road.

Pricing? I think Apple will stay around their 28% gross margin on all Macs. this margin does not include the R&D for OS X or the apps included, like iLife, and it is what investors look for. If prices can be cut while maintaining that margin then everyone would be happy.

Since all the Macs in our family are 1 - 2 years old I'm not in the market for a Mactel, but I am very interested in what is going to be delivered. Especially the design. Don't you know the S Jobs and J Ive have something special in mind for us!
 
shamino said:
I'm sorry but the logic makes absolutely no sense. Nobody is going to pay extra for an Apple computer, just to be able to run Windows on it.
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Umm yes they are. :rolleyes: Why do you think there are companies like Alienware, Voodoo PC, Falcon Northwest, etc. All of these companies make high end PC's and all are targets for Apple's x86 hardware. If you think that Windows XP and Vista aren't going to be dual booted within days you would be, will be wrong. I've had more people who are geeks who are seriously interested in an Apple laptop. Not because of OS X but because of the design. Trust me when I say these people will wipe OS X off the system within a half an hour. They simply are not interested in the OS right now. What? You think the iPod's hardware is superior to everything else? Its not. Its the design of the thing is what sells the iPod and what will sell i/PowerBooks to Windows users.
 
Mitch1984 said:
I thought one of the reasons mac's are so good and efficient is because both the Hardware & OS are made by the same company (Apple).

So now isn't this going to be a bad thing.
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Apple and Intel will be working close together to insure seemless integration. Relax. They won't need to support a million different hardware configurations, just the usual Mac handful. :p
 
Mitch1984 said:
I thought one of the reasons mac's are so good and efficient is because both the Hardware & OS are made by the same company (Apple).

So now isn't this going to be a bad thing.
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There isn't anything keeping them from working hand in hand with Intel and crafting the hardware to meet the OS needs and vis versa. (sp?) Apple is prob going to ask for a series of design specifications, after some back and forth Intel will come back with a few sample boards, Apple will take them to their labs and start playing around, Apple will say we need this or that tweaked, Intel will come back after a few weeks with something new, and so on. (Total WAG on my part.)
 
nagromme said:
Is there any reliable information that tells us the next PowerMacs will be any less amazing because Intel worked on the motherboard? Do we know that this will stop Apple from doing cool things for us that they would have liked to do? Will this allow other PC makers to steal Mac OS X?

No to all of the above. So it doesn't worry me. If Intel delivers the best quality product in the least time and lowest cost, then that works for me.

Plus, if Intel's designing a mobo for the PowerMac, that suggests that Apple's NOT using some of-the-shelf PC motherboard that wouldn't even NEED to be designed. Not that I ever considered that likely.
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Finally, a bit of sense around here! I have no idea why everyone thinks that Apple has suddenly forgotten and discarded over 20 years of computer history and is going to take a role as another box-maker.

Intels new thrust is in Platforms. Moore's Law cant continue with simply faster processors; it is going to be the platform as a whole that will deliver a better, faster experience. Centrino and VIIV are going to be the cores of great new Apple products at the PPC path simply could not provide.
 
Make no mistake, the new machine will be just as Apple as the soon to be replaced Power Mac are.

I know some of you are hoping such, and some of you are really hoping not, but that's the way it is, and that's the way it'll be.

:cool:
 
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