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Peace said:
HUH?

I believe Apple invented Firewire and USB..


apple only developed FireWire. Sony created i.Link, an unpowered version, to avoid paying royalties to Apple when putting it in PCs and Video Cameras (hence the 4 pin version in all video cameras).

USB was developed by Intel, but first adopted by Apple.
 
Cinch said:
try going to Dell and price out a similar PC. I had to about a week ago for work, and it is not any cheaper! If you factor the benefit of using OSX, Apple computer is much better value without question.

Cinch,

True!
I did the same thing about 2 weeks ago. The Dell actually came out to about $500.00 more.
 
Apple, just like eMachines ;)

satty said:
I am less and less convinced of the Intel move.
...
Looks more and more like a PC with the Apple logo on it.
Nothing new here - Intel mobos are in a lot of systems, from corner white-box builders to systems from the bigger boys.

I bought a dozen eMachines for a project - they have a standard Intel 845 mobo with a 2.66 GHz Celeron.

Really nice price, though!
 
bigandy said:
apple only developed FireWire. Sony created i.Link, an unpowered version, to avoid paying royalties to Apple when putting it in PCs and Video Cameras (hence the 4 pin version in all video cameras).

USB was developed by Intel, but first adopted by Apple.

RightO! :)

My point stands tho..Apple did USB and Firewire first..
 
I can't believe I am saying this...

I think Intel designing the first Powermac could be the best thing for it. If Intel makes the Mac run better than any other Intel PC on the market (due to Apples high quality standards/parts) then they can use it to thumb their nose at Microsoft and show off their hardware as being the fastest on the planet. Everyone else will have to raise their standards or buy from Intel.
 
Peace said:
HUH?

I believe Apple invented Firewire and USB..

Obviously you missed some of the road apples. You do know road apples, don't you?

Apple did not invent USB, though it was an early adopter, the one instance I can think of that Apple led the pack. But then Apple was way behind in adopting USB2.

Apple was a prime mover in getting Firewire through the standards group (IEEE 1394) and owns the name, but that is another matter. The Firewire that was in the B&W simply did not work for the most part. Ditto the native ATA controller, certainly with most any replacement drive.

When the B&W came out the standard for AGP 2.0 had been out for some time and Apple used the 66 MHz "PCI" slot for the graphics card.
 
Over reacting

It feels like most people are over reacting to the whole intel is designing/building the motherboard. For the most part it feels like people here don't really know what actually goes on when a motherboard is designed. It is usually the chipset maker that design a motherboard in this case intel and then individual mb makers e.g. ASUS might customise it to some degree but usually its based of the reference design.

The only reason Apple was designing mbs was coz there was no reference mb design for PPC. Getting intel to do the work is a good idea as most of Apples mb designs have something or another lacking or even bugs that would need to be fixed.
 
Sounds like the Swedish Chef on the Muppets...

Meaning the ingredients are flying every which direction, and half the time you can't understand a word he says... Still, it was a blast to watch him.

Alright, in the AppleInsider article, where it lists the iMac, PowerBook, iBook and mini, it links to two previous articles. Together they talk about the iMac and PowerBook switching to Intel at MWSF, and the iBook and mini later in the Spring. This timetable fits the "rollout-schedule" of the Yonah dual-core ("Centrino Core Duo") from January into February, and of the single-core ("Centrino Core Solo") around late March to early May.

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1431
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1368
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1359

The hints for the timing are right there. And the cost of Yonah's dual-core chips lend credence to it not going in to the mini (as it's marketed now) or the iBook. The single-core will be cheaper, and fit in to those product lines.

And the idea of sticking a dual-core Yonah (which starts around $240 for the 1.6GHz version - before any "humungo-volume" discounts) into the "sub-$500" mini and then bolting on all kinds of "DVR-wishlist" bells & whistles... Well, you've just priced & sized the mini out of its target market and purpose for existing.

I wonder if a dual-core/32bit Yonah, with its 667MHz bus, "might" be slightly faster than the single-core/64bit G5 in the present iMac (2.1GHz on 700MHz bus). It would be interesting to see if Apple would put it in the iMac at MWSF - your average iMac buyer doesn't know the difference between bits, and most of the software they will use doesn't give a rip, either... If Apple thinks that 32-vs-64bit distinction will matter, than the iMac will wait for Merom around September.

Conroe, the desktop design-derivative of Yonah/Merom is expected Fall of 2006, and fits into the PowerMac transition schedule. As for Intel designing and/or building the mobo - more power to 'em. They know x86 inside-out, but will work closely with Apple on the type and placement of components. Apple will design the case, and decide on things like FrWr, BluRay, S-ATA 150, which GPU, WiFi or WiMax, etc.

That's what distinguishes Apple from the pc world. In fact, the closest "mimic" to Apple's attention-to-detail comes from Liebermann www.go-l.com/home/index.htm.webloc... It's downright spooky at times to see how much they... hmmm... "follow" Apple's lead.

In many respects Apple has been a pioneer, even of technology Intel invented. It was the first to embrace USB and PCI while most "beige box builders" were (are, in some cases) still playing with Serial, Paralel, PS/2, 3.5" FDHDs, EISA, etc. Look at WiFi and Apple's leap from 802.11b to 802.11g - will WiMax be on the new PowerBooks? It was slow on the AGP-bandwagon, then "went left" to PCI-X when most of the world was "going right" to PCI-Express. FireWire is another success, and the likely reason it's missing on the new iPods is because of cost savings - we should be seeing FrWr 1600 by 2007, not just "more" acceptance of FrWr 800... Here's one more: Pioneer -depending on final licensing terms - will announce their first BluRay product(s) at CES in January - it will appear first in Japan, but how soon after that will it be in an Apple?

Relax, people... 2006 looks very bright - unless you're a beta tester of Vista. Or, as the Swedish Chef might say, "Yea, borgi-sbord-ne-durningk-hahm!"
 
x86 minus the x-part???

One more thing to think about: as Apple's market share increases and MacOS X begins besting Windows' scores for app benchmarks...

The x86 architecture is loaded down with legacy instructions and code "bolted" on top of one another. How hard would it be for Intel to strip away those ugly bits and leave a multi-core (2,4,8...) cpu that is optimized for MacOS X (no Classic support either, thank god)...

Not in 2006, or in 2007, but I could see it happening in 2008... right around the time Apple commands 10% of the market.

The only wrinkle would be if Apple had been forced (by hackers, the courts or "Redmond's Omni-Impotence") to license the MacOS X to "beige box builders".
 
What about Intel soldering the processor down to the board before it even leaves the factory for Apple's assembly plants?

USB was developed by Intel, but first adopted by Apple.

This shows the great opportunity that both companies have here. Intel wants to design and implement new hardware, but Microsoft has held them back. Apple pushes new hardware and can easier than Microsoft, since they write the OS for their "own" hardware. By their "own" I simply mean they order it to spec and package it up.

As for BIOS, seriously people. Go from OpenFirmware to BIOS, then eventually to EFI? If Intel is the developer of EFI, they'd want to sell it. They can and already do with boards they sell.

I'm sorry but the logic makes absolutely no sense. Nobody is going to pay extra for an Apple computer, just to be able to run Windows on it.

Why not?

In many respects Apple has been a pioneer, even of technology Intel invented. It was the first to embrace USB and PCI while most "beige box builders" were (are, in some cases) still playing with Serial, Paralel, PS/2, 3.5" FDHDs, EISA, etc.

My GOD, thank you Norse Son. Having all those extra connections means they still use resources. Therefore, do I want a PS/2 or Serial or Paralel on my machine anymore, especially if there is hardware out there that does the same but better? Not really. And even if it doesn't perform better or faster, if I can have one connection, say USB, instead of a different one each for a mouse & keyboard, printer, external modem, I'll take the USB.

The x86 architecture is loaded down with legacy instructions and code "bolted" on top of one another. How hard would it be for Intel to strip away those ugly bits and leave a multi-core (2,4,8...) cpu that is optimized for MacOS X (no Classic support either, thank god)...

Wouldn't that be great?
 
amateurmacfreak said:
Yeah, Apple's starting to bother me more and more because of the huge focus on design. Don't get me wrong: I think it is wonderful that Apple computers are beautiful. But after a while, if Apple becomes more and more about sales and design and loses touch with having cutting edge technology that they design themselves, it's going to be tough, and very sad. I have always had great admiration for Steve Jobs, but this Intel move has started to seem to feel a little rocky to me, and perhaps seems a lose of too much of Apple's control over their own product. Maybe I'm just stressed about MWSF coming. But this is starting to be less exciting and about innovation, and more about buisness moves and profits it seems.

No one can trust Steve Jobs, for the very reason that he is in the business to make money and lots of it for himself and Apple Computers. As Apple and Steve Jobs have learnt a hard painful lesson in the past and they do not plan on making the same mistake again.

Steve Jobs said many things and then the turn on his own word(s). He also says that he does not care about market share, how wrong you all are who believe that he doesn't care. He cares a lot for the Macintosh market share.

For reference in Steve Jobs statements in the past:

1. PPC is better than x86 (true, to a point and depending on usage).
2. Optical and HDD drives performance degrade when placed in a vertical housing.
3. 3GHz G5 PowerMac by next summer. ;) <-- had to throw that in there.
4. PowerBook G5 should follow shortly. ;) <-- that to throw that one also.
5. iPod will never see Picture and Video support.
etc, etc, etc.....


You get the point, in the end he puts on a show and the audience watches on like eager children to see what new trick he has up his sleeve(s).

He also wear a black turtleneck to symbolize a magician. ;) :D
 
mtscott said:
My GOD, thank you Norse Son. Having all those extra connections means they still use resources.

Therefore, do I want a PS/2 or Serial or Paralel on my machine anymore, especially if there is hardware out there that does the same but better?
When a "resource" is a couple of bytes in physical (real) address space and an overloaded interrupt line - does it really matter? (ps. for computer scientists, the term "overloaded" is a good thing, not a bad thing ;-) - we're not electrical engineers, after all)

You may take USB - but if my mobo has PS/2 ports I'll plug the keyboard and mouse into those and use the USB ports for something that actually benefits from USB. What on earth is the benefit of using USB over PS/2 for the keyboard/mouse of a desktop? (Although, the new Intel mobos usually have 6 or 8 USB2 ports from the get-go.)

And, for the fanbois claiming that "Apple designed USB" - LOL, that's why I have fun in these fora!

Apple's "innovation" wasn't to add USB, it was to remove all the other ports. PCs had USB a year before the iMac - but since they also had serial and parallel nobody was forced to jump to the new technology.
 
maya said:
No one can trust Steve Jobs, for the very reason that he is in the business to make money and lots of it for himself and Apple Computers. As Apple and Steve Jobs have learnt a hard painful lesson in the past and they do not plan on making the same mistake again.

Steve Jobs said many things and then the turn on his own word(s). He also says that he does not care about market share, how wrong you all are who believe that he doesn't care. He cares a lot for the Macintosh market share.

For reference in Steve Jobs statements in the past:

1. PPC is better than x86 (true, to a point and depending on usage).
2. Optical and HDD drives performance degrade when placed in a vertical housing.
3. 3GHz G5 PowerMac by next summer. ;) <-- had to throw that in there.
4. PowerBook G5 should follow shortly. ;) <-- that to throw that one also.
5. iPod will never see Pictures and VIdeo support.
etc, etc, etc.....


You get the point, in the end he puts on a show and the audience watches on like eager children to see what new trick he has up his sleeve(s).

He also wear a black turtleneck to symbolize a magician. ;) :D
I don't ever recall him saying "Never."
 
What on earth is the benefit of using USB over PS/2 for the keyboard/mouse of a desktop? (Although, the new Intel mobos usually have 6 or 8 USB2 ports from the get-go.)

None. Aside from having a single type of connection for external devices. I never said it was better for the user, although I believe it is. However, for a manufacturer to design a motherboard to incorporate only USB connections instead of PS/2, serial, parallel, & USB must be easier and more cost effective.

I know that the resources used by having the ports is not that significant. However, I'm sure as a computer scientist you can appreciate that the more complicated something is, the harder it becomes to manage. Having USB along with serial, parallel, and PS/2 at the same time becomes redundant.
 
inkhead said:
Well to start off, the IBM 970 processor is extremely hot. The Intel chipset runs at about 1/3 the watts of this processor

What "Intel chipset"? There are lots. Some of them are quite hotter than the 970. And also, which 970? There are several. Some of them are cool enough that they run in iMacs without lots of fans just fine. Since Apple hasn't said diddly-squat about which chips are going in Intel Power Macs, there's no way to know what they're going to use to cool them. But you aren't going to get dual-core 970-beating chips that run at 1/3 the watts, that's for sure. Not this year or next year, anyway.

--Eric
 
Norse Son said:
The only wrinkle would be if Apple had been forced (by hackers, the courts or "Redmond's Omni-Impotence") to license the MacOS X to "beige box builders".

I doubt Apple would be forced to do that. There's no legal standing and I don't think the OS X hacking community would grow large enough to truly worry them.
 
surprises surprises

i had been looking forward to the intel release, but this is the first thing that has me somewhat worried. I dont like the fact that apple might be outsourcing for the fact that it loses total control of design, the thing taht separates apple from everyone else. But i also see this as a transition for apple, the more work they can outsource the more work they can do in house on innovation.
 
amateurmacfreak said:
Ok. If Intel iMacs come out in January I am going to be more pissed than I ever have been in my whole life. I just got a new one for Christmas (which I am in total love with, by the way). That would be the worst thing ever if new ones came about 20 days after. :(

Why? What's going to run natively on Intel Macs, aside from (probably) iLife and a couple of new game ports? For quite a while, 90% or more of everything you run will probably have to go through Rosetta, which means it will run slowly or not at all. Unless you like having new things just for the sake of having new things, sticking with a PPC Mac for now would be a good idea.

--Eric
 
TheMasin9 said:
But i also see this as a transition for apple, the more work they can outsource the more work they can do in house on innovation.
But, if the guts of the computer are exactly the same as the Dell, HP, Lenovo and Gateway - what is there to innovate other than new color plastics for the box, or perhaps stunning the industry with an anodized aluminum box?

Of course, "fashion" in a PC merely means that it will be "unfashionable" next season - even before its performance it no longer acceptable. (Wouldn't you be embarrassed to have a flower power iMac today?)

It looks like Macs will be commodity PCs, with maybe a prettier case to match the prettier price tag.
 
Hmm, what an interesting article. I wouldn't have thought Apple would outsource the PM mobo design in this manner, but all we can do is assume they know what they're doing, and that it will be a benefit to the product in the long run.

The whole mention of Intel PMs in late 2006 is interesting as well. Due to the current Conroe/Woodcrest timelines, I am not sure how this would be possible - or, if Apple will not be adopting these chipsets right away for the PMs (which makes little sense to me) I am curious as to what chipset would be implemented. Well, I guess we'll find out sooner or later - most likely at WWDC would be my guess. :cool:
 
heisetax said:
Even my copy of Aperture was made in Canada. I used to think that they at least produced their own software. But I guess I have been proven wrong again.

Uhm, yeah, the software was printed / pressed in Canada. A lot of printing and pressing goes on there. It is really, really inefficient for company to do its own printing / pressing (can't keep the place busy 100% of the time).

So, let's look at this rumor........

Apple is asking Intel to design its motherboard for the PowerMac. Apple needs to get a design out there, and has asked one of the larger motherboard makers who also happens to create chipsets and motherboards to do it. This is probably the biggest reason they went with Intel over AMD. Intel does this for PC companies and can do this for Apple.

Like Dell, Apple will ask them to meet certain specs. I would imagine that all the legacy ports (Parallel, Serial, Floppy, PS/2, PATA) and control chips will be removed. Apple will want firewire (like many other buyers of Intel motherboards) and maybe add an external SATA connector. BIOS will be gone, probably replaced by Intel's new EFI. For the PowerMac, I would bet on no onboard video card.

Just because it is an Intel-designed motherboard, doesn't make it bad. I really believe Intel really wants to show the world how cool there stuff could be and is now going to get the chance.
 
AidenShaw said:
But, if the guts of the computer are exactly the same as the Dell, HP, Lenovo and Gateway - what is there to innovate other than new color plastics for the box, or perhaps stunning the industry with an anodized aluminum box?

Of course, "fashion" in a PC merely means that it will be "unfashionable" next season - even before its performance it no longer acceptable. (Wouldn't you be embarrassed to have a flower power iMac today?)

It looks like Macs will be commodity PCs, with maybe a prettier case to match the prettier price tag.

You are missing the point. What makes a mac truly a mac is the os that runs on top of it. Who cares what processor you are using as long as your mac can run really fast. As mentioned before the G4 although a very good processor pales in comparison against the Yonah processor that will be coming out in a few weeks in terms of performance and the amount of watts that it uses. Besides windows it's the quality of hardware that also contributes to dell's poor performance. It just isn't up to snuff with something that asus, msi, or gigabyte would put out. There are plenty of pcs that have nicer hardware than apples but just lack os x. It doesn't make sense for apple to use hardware of the same calibur as bottom of the barrel dell's because they already have proven that people will pay for quality as evidenced by price tags 50% more than a comparable dell. All this switch means is that you will be able to get apples cheaper, faster, and running cooler. And that should make your pocketbook and your lap happy. (Oh and regarding the flower power macs, although not too powerful by today's standards they definitely whip my head around when I see them in a book store...I still think they have a certain amount of charm.)
 
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