Intel Expecting Apple to Transition to Custom ARM-Based Chips Starting in 2020

[turbineseaplane]

In my experience, not everyone who runs a Hackintosh does it because they feel "entitled" to different or lower cost hardware. In many cases, these are frustrated long-term Mac users who have invested many thousands of dollars over the years in Apple and depend on their software for their livelihood.

It's very true..

My gaming PC just happens to be nearly a perfect Hackintosh candidate with parts that almost totally mirror a very well regarded User Build over on one of the Hack forums.

I've thought very seriously about dual boot hacking it just because and it would be nice to have a desktop machine again for some usages (vs docking my MBP all the time).

The flexibility and optionality on the PC side is fun and when you can bring macOS onto that it's even more fun, especially on an otherwise very powerful gaming PC that's just sitting there not being used when I'm not gaming.

 

[firewood]

Not so easy if you're dealing with legacy programs that aren't being actively developed anymore.

Best way to run legacy programs is with legacy hardware. That's why a few users even keep their cheesegrater PPCs running. Or Windows2k PCs running industrial equipment, hopefully behind airgapped firewalls.

 

[LordVic]

Best way to run legacy programs is with legacy hardware. That's why a few users even keep their cheesegrater PPCs running. Or Windows2k PCs running industrial equipment, hopefully behind airgapped firewalls.

not always an option depending on the use case. for example, Teller workstations... they often need to be replaced due to "abuse"... users who don't have a bloody clue what they're doing who don't treat the eequipment with much respect (The amount of service calls I've had to send my employees on to the branches cause a user decided that the computer was a good foot rest and would kick it when they were frustrated, or the user with a broken laptop screen, who then broke the replacement computers keyboard... who then.... the cycle goes ON and ON and ON and it's quite sad)

 

[falainber]

You don’t “invest” in hardware and software - you buy it. And in exchange for your cash you get to keep it and use it. Just because you bought a Mac once and you are “invested” in their software does not give you the right to continue to use the OS on hardware you don’t buy from Mac. That’s what I mean by “entitled.” “I love Macs, and I can’t continue to use Macs because of cost/capabilities/whatever unless I hackintosh” is not a rationale. If you can’t use Macs you buy from Apple, you aren’t entitled to use Macs.

Don't you both say the same thing? Which comes to this: Apple neglected pro (power) users for many users now and it's time for them to move on.

 

[firewood]

Oddly, I think likely candidates are (a) the 12" MacBook, (b) the forthcoming Mac Pro or (c) just letting the Mac wind down and promoting the iPad Pro as an alternative to laptops.

(c) is not likely, because iPads can't be used as build farms for Swift or AI or ASIC development, which Apple does a lot of.

The downside of a 12" ARM MacBook is that it would directly compete with the top-end iPad Pro models, and Apple seem more interested in iOS than Mac at the moment. Of course, if it had an ARM processor and could run iOS apps via Marzipan, would it be a Mac or an iPad?

Not a necessarily a downside, as their profit margins might be higher if they don't have to pay an Intel tax. They might even increase the prices of Intel units (for those customers who can't do without paying the MS tax) to encourage typical consumers to move to lower priced ARM models the roughly the same performance but much better battery life.

 

[drumzalicious]

I’m curious as to how this will affect pro apps that are cross platform. Premiere, Avid Pro Tools, Ableton Live etc

 

[BuffaloTF]

Well-I guess that settles it. Apple was nice for decade and a half, but an ARM will never be an i7.

Given the rumor, and the time between now and then... your statement seems to be missing the point. They're in shouting distance of i3's and 5's right now, all while passively cooled. We haven't seen one actively cooled yet, and the thermal management is what seems to pull the ARMs back right now.

I'd be more worried about the loss of support across the x86 instruction set with all the programs that are readily available for it, rather than some what-if processor capabilities for what is probably closer to 2 years away than the 1 the title suggests.

 

[Reindeer_Games]

Given the rumor, and the time between now and then... your statement seems to be missing the point. They're in shouting distance of i3's and 5's right now, all while passively cooled.

...I'd be more worried about the loss of support across the x86 instruction set..

That would be exactly why I didn't say i3 or i5, my interest is in lifecycles not benchmarks (and 100% native multi-boot capability not VM, without locked down OS's only); I get your point-but still like heatsinks. Not everybody works/lives/travels to cool climates all the time. In the past, deployments have taken me to places that see 50 deg C by 10 AM-and that doesn't bode well for anything that doesn't at least have a passive heatsink. I get I may be unique in this fact, but if it can handle what I'd throw at it, personally-I think then that means it could be pretty solid; if it's not just a rumor.

Statements of absolution are always limited in some scope-thats what allows them to be absolute; there is an implied barrier at some point to the statement, mine was the Pro line, implied by the use of the i7 moniker. Loss of instruction set is why I'm interested in lifecycles-I'm no coder though, so it's not my lane to try and sound like one. I can however say thank you, but that was exactly my point-but it's above my skillset in authoring code let alone try write about it where I'll be filleted by the masses.

 

[cmaier]

Don't you both say the same thing? Which comes to this: Apple neglected pro (power) users for many users now and it's time for them to move on.

Move on if you can’t wait for the new pro, or if the iMac Pro or MBP don’t do what you need them to do. Buy a PC or a Linux workstation or a Solaris box or whatever it takes.

 

[Nugget]

Do you have a good iOS app for SSH that doesn't kill the running process after 2 minutes?

I was a happy Prompt user for years, but as soon as I tried Blink I switched and haven't looked back. It does a great job with long-lived ssh sessions, and if you can install mosh on the server side sessions effectively become immortal.

 

[Greymacuser]

Final nail in the coffin for professionals, not like they weren't jumping ship already given how garbage Apple's computers have been for performance. Might as well go all in on making cheap toys.

So glad I built a Hackintosh.. Apple deserves no money.

Amen.

 

[theluggage]

(c) is not likely, because iPads can't be used as build farms for Swift or AI or ASIC development, which Apple does a lot of.

...and Apple will never discontinue the XServe because they need it for running their internet services.

Heads up: The current Mac is just an x86 PC running Unix with a proprietary GUI (which doesn't matter for servers). Other such hardware is available - often in a rack or blade form which is far more suitable for "farms".

 

[nutjob]

That’s all true. But I don’t feel sorry for them. It’s not like they are entitled to leverage the hard work of Apple in creating the OS for free. Apple gives away the operating system but only to those who buy the hardware - it’s a fair system. Feeling entitled to different hardware than apple makes, or hardware at a lower price, doesn’t give them a moral right to just take the OS and do what they want with it, and being prevented from doing so should not warrant pity. It’s like feeling sorry for someone who doesnt like their house so they squat in yours, but you change the locks so no now they have to go someplace else.

Actually the biggest reason people build hackintoshes is because they run more reliably than Macs and are much easier to repair and maintain. You can pontificate about morals and being "locked out" all you like but Apple's actions show it doesn't care about that segment of market by not offering much in the way of products and by not taking any action against hackintoshes via technical measures.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

In my experience, not everyone who runs a Hackintosh does it because they feel "entitled" to different or lower cost hardware. In many cases, these are frustrated long-term Mac users who have invested many thousands of dollars over the years in Apple and depend on their software for their livelihood. In recent years, Apple has been an atrocious custodian of the macOS – alienating and letting down pro users at their own admission – and their hardware offering has, at times, been abysmal.

For example, someone who bought a 2013 Mac Pro and has come to the end of its useful life/service contract will find they only have the exact same computer still for sale 6 years later or a closed, thermally challenged all-in-one to choose from on the desktop. For laptop users, the choice is arguably even worse – not a single model available that doesn't thermally throttle and long-running (three years and counting) keyboard reliability issues.

I know several people who are at the end of their tether with Apple and what they consider to be overpriced, outdated and underperforming hardware. For many, the Hackintosh has been the only way to stay on macOS and run hardware that keeps their business competitive. Apple should be grateful they haven't simply given up and dropped the platform; feeling "entitled" has nothing to do with it.

This is spot on. I have had a MBP for many years. Decided to switch to a custom-built hackintosh at least a year ago so that I could actually game. Suddenly realized all of my software is in Win10 anyway. I haven't booted back into Mac in at least a month or two.
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Actually the biggest reason people build hackintoshes is because they run more reliably than Macs and are much easier to repair and maintain. You can pontificate about morals and being "locked out" all you like but Apple's actions show it doesn't care about that segment of market by not offering much in the way of products and by not taking any action against hackintoshes via technical measures.

I honestly think this is why they haven't really gone after the hackintosh users. They know they can't really compete. At some point they will dumb down XCode to run on Marzipan and then cut off the hackintosh users by a T2 chip requirement. I wonder how many will really be affected by then.
[doublepost=1551126629][/doublepost]

That’s all true. But I don’t feel sorry for them. It’s not like they are entitled to leverage the hard work of Apple in creating the OS for free. Apple gives away the operating system but only to those who buy the hardware - it’s a fair system. Feeling entitled to different hardware than apple makes, or hardware at a lower price, doesn’t give them a moral right to just take the OS and do what they want with it, and being prevented from doing so should not warrant pity. It’s like feeling sorry for someone who doesnt like their house so they squat in yours, but you change the locks so no now they have to go someplace else.

HAHAHAHA! Well that settles it. The entire community will feel terrible because a user on a forum doesn't feel sorry for them. Glad that was sorted out.

 

[cmaier]

This is spot on. I have had a MBP for many years. Decided to switch to a custom-built hackintosh at least a year ago so that I could actually game. Suddenly realized all of my software is in Win10 anyway. I haven't booted back into Mac in at least a month or two.
[doublepost=1551126430][/doublepost]
I honestly think this is why they haven't really gone after the hackintosh users. They know they can't really compete. At some point they will dumb down XCode to run on Marzipan and then cut off the hackintosh users by a T2 chip requirement. I wonder how many will really be affected by then.
[doublepost=1551126629][/doublepost]
HAHAHAHA! Well that settles it. The entire community will feel terrible because a user on a forum doesn't feel sorry for them. Glad that was sorted out.

Not sure what your point is. He said he feels sorry for them. I was merely pointing out that nobody should feel sorry for them.

 

[trellus]

My favorite part...actually there are several...but to only name a few: built-in ads on a paid OS, random crashes and BSOD, system wide telemetry, and sign-in just to play a simple game of Solitaire?

I can't remember the last time I had a BSOD on my Dell PeeCee at work running Windows 10. Both BSOD's on my Windows boxes and kernel panics on my Macs are exceedingly rare, at about the same rate. I've not found Windows 10 to be less reliable than macOS at all.

And what sign in are you talking about? My Windows 10 isn't tied to a Microsoft account so I don't sign in -- well on one of my Windows 10 laptops, it is, but that was by choice, but not on my work Dell (I do have an AD sign that, that's a corporate concession we need) nor on my Windows 10 VM that I run on my MacBook Pro.

I'm not sure what ads you're talking about, either, so they must be quite unobtrusive since I never see them.
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Another courageous decision from Tim Cook? Moving Macs to ARM is of course possible, but I have serious doubts that it's worth the effort. Apple's in-house chip design has been able to stay lean and focused, and drives their main cash-machine - which is driven by a low power, super efficient chip.

That's not the chip which would drive a hypothetical ARM Mac, no matter what "CPU-engineers" in this thread contend, a CPU/GPU is created with a performance envelope. Effectively, this means that Apple needs one chip for their iPhone/iPad and another for their Mac line. If not two.

It's been mentioned in this thread, that Macs are now merely 10% of Apple's revenue, and that number is declining. The future for Apple is not the Macintosh - there's no growth there, and no point in investing in engineering effort in order to support a declining 10% income sector, when Intel and AMD offer decent enough CPUs.

The Macintosh will simply be allowed to sail into the sunset and Apple will start offering ARM based laptops. But they won't be called Macintosh.

I don't know more people haven't made this point!
[doublepost=1551129451][/doublepost]

Maybe if the new Mac Pro is truly expandable, we'll wind up having the equivalent of the old DOS compatibility cards that used to be available for Nubus and later PCI.

I had that thought, too! Would be an interesting transition solution for some people...

 

[BuffaloTF]

That would be exactly why I didn't say i3 or i5, my interest is in lifecycles not benchmarks (and 100% native multi-boot capability not VM, without locked down OS's only); I get your point-but still like heatsinks. Not everybody works/lives/travels to cool climates all the time. In the past, deployments have taken me to places that see 50 deg C by 10 AM-and that doesn't bode well for anything that doesn't at least have a passive heatsink. I get I may be unique in this fact, but if it can handle what I'd throw at it, personally-I think then that means it could be pretty solid; if it's not just a rumor.

I think my intention was missed here -- and it's that today we only have passively cooled ARM chips and thermal throttling to manage the high end temps. So what I'm getting at, is it may be whole new world on those same ARMs if we threw on a heatsink, or a fan, or a liquid cycle (or any combination) since they're nearly competitive with the 3's and 5's today without them... that, and the apps/programs available for the instruction set don't exist (in the wild) that one could use as a reference to that if they tried.

MS and Google are both sniffing around the ARM yard too, and it seems like 19 may be the year one of those 2 give it a try. We shall see...

 

[09872738]

(...) there's no growth there, and no point in investing in engineering effort in (...)

You seem to confuse cause and effect: Its not that there should not be investing because of the lack of growth.
Its the other way round: There is no growth because Apple doesn't give a *censored* about the Mac, hence sales number are stagnating. They could easily double (even triple) their sales if only they wanted. For whatever reason they seem to not even be interested

 

[Ethosik]

Yeah things like 20% higher frequency and 7% better performance on average. That's what I'm talking about.
There's also other things to consider, a lot of designs when increasing the frequency and voltage they start to burn power like there's no tomorrow, things like 10% higher frequency, 22% higher power consumption.

What does this even mean? An i3 targeting low TDP compared to a Xeon targeting a very large TDP has only 7% difference? We aren’t talking about the EXACT SAME processor from the iPad. I’m sure they will develop “desktop” class A chips.

 

[Wilderness-1902]

What an ARM Mac will require of the developer is Mac application on Intel -> Mac application on ARM. It is a completely different kind of problem and it is extremely simpler since the operating system and therefore the APIs are the same.

A new version, means developer efforts (think about if you use SIMD, you need to switch to Neon, or you code depends on Quicksync), QA efforts, publishing costs....

Not just a compiler issue. Apple makes a decision for it own good. but software vendors have to waste money on these.

 

[ROGmaster]

What does this even mean? An i3 targeting low TDP compared to a Xeon targeting a very large TDP has only 7% difference? We aren’t talking about the EXACT SAME processor from the iPad. I’m sure they will develop “desktop” class A chips.

It means you personally don't understand CPU overclocking at all.

And I wasn't comparing an i3 with a Xeon(which currently don't even use the same architecture and are optimized differently), I was talking about what can happen to the same CPU with higher or lower Frequencies.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

these are frustrated long-term Mac users who have invested many thousands of dollars over the years in Apple and depend on their software for their livelihood.

From what I've read, keeping a Hackintosh running is a whole different kind of frustration. And I can't imagine someone depending on an unsupported system for their livelihood.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

This is not gonna happen any time soon.

 

[The_Interloper]

From what I've read, keeping a Hackintosh running is a whole different kind of frustration. And I can't imagine someone depending on an unsupported system for their livelihood.

Totally agree. I've run a couple of Hackintoshes myself (just for fun) in the past and it's far more involved than enthusiasts would have you believe. As a hobby, fine. As a business? Nope.

My point was that, for some, it has become a last resort. I know of one guy (freelance designer) who had his 2013 Mac Pro repaired multiple times (failing graphics card issues) and when his AppleCare was up, decided to give up on it when it fell over yet again. With nothing Apple had for sale at the time meeting his requirements, he built a Hackintosh.

Suffice to say, it worked okay for a while but was no good for long-term professional use and he has since reformatted it and reluctantly switched all his software and workflow to Windows 10. He is sad and furious at Apple's treatment of pro users and the Mac in general, as are many of his colleagues.

 

[developer13245]

It’s not a zero sum game. Apple can win without Intel losing. And being able to actually differentiate their hardware from the competition, while providing a more alluring architecture for developers, seems like a win.

I've been developing cross-platform software for over 30 years. Dealing with different processor architectures was a challenge when Mac was PPC. I liked the PPC platform and even welcomed the cross platform development challenges, but it increased the cost to develop software. Apple seems to have forgotten this (search the inter webs for the circa 2005 Mac transition to Intel announcement), and will pay the price. Apple is descending (back) into the abyss if it goes down this road.