Intel Launches First Eighth-Generation Core Processors, Paving Way For Quad-Core 13-Inch MacBook Pro

[LordVic]

Just tell me how HP, LENOVO and DELL have ultrabooks with 32 gb options....

They're opting to use DDR4 instead of the low power DDR3 options, which I believe is what's the limiting factor here.


It's a bit of a mislead though, since DDR4's power at rest is equivelant to that of LPDDR3. it's only while under load does DDR4's power go up

 

[_Kiki_]

I am not familiar with those lines these days -- but the only way to do it with current processors is to replace the laptop memory with standard desktop computer memory. I am guessing that the computers they put them in are probably closer to being transportable (i.e. larger form factor)?

The downside to doing this hack is:
- Memory will consume more power and deplete the battery quicker
- Memory will run significantly slower on a laptop than the memory made for laptops.

The need for more memory for many applications is offset by faster flash drive space - which is the route Apple currently takes as their flash in their MacBook Pro line is fairly high end.

no true, PC Laptops using memory DDR4 SO-DIMM 260pin designed for laptops

desktop PC DDR4 DIMM has 288pin and it's longer/bigger

 

[bkkcanuck8]

Obviously Intel does not seem to think that having a laptop processor use LPDDR4 totally more than 16gb is a large enough of a market to care about ahead of cannonlake at the earliest. Originally this new generation was suppose to support it (again) -- but they decided to turn it into a "refresh" rather than another tock.
[doublepost=1503425478][/doublepost]

no true, PC Laptops using memory DDR4 SO-DIMM 260pin designed for laptops

desktop PC DDR4 DIMM has 288pin and it's longer/bigger

You are talking about module package size - I doubt that matters much since Apple would just solder the memory onto the motherboard -- they don't use modules. Module form factor is sort of irrelevant to the discussion of power needs.

 

[_Kiki_]

Obviously Intel does not seem to think that having a laptop processor use LPDDR4 totally more than 16gb is a large enough of a market to care about ahead of cannonlake at the earliest. Originally this new generation was suppose to support it (again) -- but they decided to turn it into a "refresh" rather than another tock.
[doublepost=1503425478][/doublepost]
You are talking about module package size - I doubt that matters much since Apple would just solder the memory onto the motherboard -- they don't use modules. Module form factor is sort of irrelevant to the discussion of power needs.

It matters, if you need save the space in small "package"

Now tell me how much you can save battery using LPDDR3 against DDR4? 15 minutes on idle maybe less ?

 

[CWallace]

Just tell me how HP, LENOVO and DELL have ultrabooks with 32 gb options....

They use DDR4 instead of LPDDR4 along with an external memory controller. The trade-off is significantly reduced battery life both from the higher draw of the RAM and the memory controller's draw.
[doublepost=1503427432][/doublepost]

Now tell me how much you can save battery using LPDDR3 against DDR4? 15 minutes on idle maybe less ?

If you need 32GB of RAM, how often is it all going to be lying idle? In real-world usage, you're going to see a fair number of hours less battery life due to the higher drain of both the modules and the external controller.

 

[xitongzou]

I want to say something to Intel like wtf are you guys doing giving us a generation thats not even a real generation.. no tick or tock.. but then again what alternatives are there? its not like AMD is gaining any traction in notebooks

 

[bkkcanuck8]

My understanding is another factor is the DDR4 does not have fast power down mode... so every time the computer kicks up a notch to do something then back down to inactive again -- DDR4 will continue to draw more power since it will be drawing power in active state longer. macOS is probably the best at managing the quantity (by bunching tasks into short bursts - e.g. if you have 5 scheduled tasks in 500ms - macOS will try to do all of them together so it can switch back to inactive; whereas previously it might do 5 different transitions active/inactive) of switching from active to inactive transition - which is one of the reasons for some of the gains on the battery life a few years ago.... which would actually mean much less if they switched to DDR4 because no matter how efficient it is ... the memory won't co-operate. (it actually would probably have less of an impact on a percentage basis on Windows).

 

[Queen6]

I laughed out loud when I read this line. I know zero MBP users who get 10 hours of battery life. It doesn't even get 10 hours while sitting idle. Sadly, Apple is back to their shady battery life claims.

For me, I couldn't care less about these new chips in the MacBook Pro. What I want is for Apple to fix the design decisions which are hostile to Pro workflows:

1. True 10 hour battery life during a pro workflow

2. More travel on the Keyboard. And make it quieter.

3. A touch-bar free version with full specs. (My guess is the touch bar will go down as a miss in the Apple history books.) A lot of pros I know want to max out their MBP but loathe the Touchbar.

4. Add the SD slot back. Again, breaking professional workflows for aesthetic reasons.

Apple needs to get back in touch with their pro customers, get over Jonny Ive's thinness and simplistic fetishes, and ship a slightly thicker, better MBP that empowers the professional workflow.

Well said, I'm back to considering a new 15" MBP, yet loath how little value the current MBP represents. I don't want design statements for the coffee shop I want a sensible portable Mac. As for getting in touch with it's professorial customers Apple wont have many of us left, baring those shackled to the Mac for IOS development the way it's going...

Q-6

 

[chucker23n1]

- Memory will run significantly slower on a laptop than the memory made for laptops.

Fir of all, surely SO-DIMMs are "made for laptops". Second, why would they be slower than LPDDR?

The need for more memory for many applications is offset by faster flash drive space - which is the route Apple currently takes as their flash in their MacBook Pro line is fairly high end.

No, the route Apple is taken is making a trade-off that has their MacBook Pro memory max out at 16 GB both in 2011 and in 2017, and possibly even in 2018. Having a fast SSD is nice, but thrashing it by RAM-starving isn't going to work.
[doublepost=1503432418][/doublepost]

If you need 32GB of RAM, how often is it all going to be lying idle?

Isn't the flexibility of sometimes putting the machine through a lot of work and sometimes using it lightly kind of the whole point of a pro laptop? If I wanted to constantly use a workstation, I'd buy a desktop.

 

[bkkcanuck8]

Fir of all, surely SO-DIMMs are "made for laptops". Second, why would they be slower than LPDDR?

The form factor (SO-DIMMs) were designed and made for laptops. The memory was not really made for laptops it is the same as in a desktop. There is no fast power down mode which means the memory will remain active and consume a lot more background power than LPDDR. The operating system and many applications are constantly scheduling lots of stuff when you think the system is "inactive" but it does not mean that if you see inactive the memory is not.

 

[chucker23n1]

The form factor (SO-DIMMs) were designed and made for laptops. The memory was not really made for laptops it is the same as in a desktop. There is no fast power down mode which means the memory will remain active and consume a lot more background power than LPDDR. The operating system and many applications are constantly scheduling lots of stuff when you think the system is "inactive" but it does not mean that if you see inactive the memory is not.

Yes, SO-DIMMs draw more power than LPDDR. You haven't answered how that makes them slower.

 

[bkkcanuck8]

I laughed out loud when I read this line. I know zero MBP users who get 10 hours of battery life. It doesn't even get 10 hours while sitting idle. Sadly, Apple is back to their shady battery life claims.

For me, I couldn't care less about these new chips in the MacBook Pro. What I want is for Apple to fix the design decisions which are hostile to Pro workflows:

1. True 10 hour battery life during a pro workflow

2. More travel on the Keyboard. And make it quieter.

3. A touch-bar free version with full specs. (My guess is the touch bar will go down as a miss in the Apple history books.) A lot of pros I know want to max out their MBP but loathe the Touchbar.

4. Add the SD slot back. Again, breaking professional workflows for aesthetic reasons.

Apple needs to get back in touch with their pro customers, get over Jonny Ive's thinness and simplistic fetishes, and ship a slightly thicker, better MBP that empowers the professional workflow.

1. 10 hours at idle or watching video - as long as you have not installed a bunch of power sucking apps that are constantly activating in the background (e.g. Slack, Intelliij IDEA). If you put a battery in to support 10 hours of "pro workflow" (I had my old 2008 Mac Pro transcoding for 6 months straight 7/24) -- it would be really heavy... and it would not be allowed on a plane when you travel (there are limits placed on battery size). As a person that has done permanent damage to my spine due to carrying heavy laptops on my shoulder while constantly on the road -- I really appreciate the focus on thin and light (even on the heavy MacBook Pros).

2. I actually am fine with thin keyboards as long as long as there is some feedback (i.e. not glass) and I can rely on it registering a key that I press. I can type faster on thin keyboards.

3. I would be happy if they had the same lineup with and without since I have no real need or use for the touch-bar. I would, however, love if the keyboard keys had displays themselves and would change based on language. It is odd, I don't look at the keyboard while typing -- but if the keys are blank... it throws me for some reason (I think I overthink it).

4. The professional market would be better served if the bloody camera companies would actually make their cameras transmit the data faster rather than having it faster to take out the memory and inserting it into a laptop. (IMHO). Put a Thunderbolt port on the camera -- not USB 2.

 

[manu chao]

It matters, if you need save the space in small "package"

Now tell me how much you can save battery using LPDDR3 against DDR4? 15 minutes on idle maybe less ?

Given that in idle, the battery life is more than ten hours, 15 minutes would correspond to a 2.5% difference.
[doublepost=1503434520][/doublepost]

3. I would be happy if they had the same lineup with and without since I have no real need or use for the touch-bar. I would, however, love if the keyboard keys had displays themselves and would change based on language. It is odd, I don't look at the keyboard while typing -- but if the keys are blank... it throws me for some reason (I think I overthink it).

Typing in the dark (with keyboard backlighting switched off), approximates 'blank' keys. While I usually have the backlighting on in the dark, I can do ok without it.[/QUOTE]

 

[bkkcanuck8]

Yes, SO-DIMMs draw more power than LPDDR. You haven't answered how that makes them slower.

I read something a while ago about the LPDDR3 being more performant -- but cannot find it now. I would hazard a guess that if something draws more power, it generates more heat and more heat means more likely at having to throttle performance to keep it within tolerance.

 

[zaphodb3]

Given that it's just a Kaby Lake refresh, I'm holding out a minute amount of hope for a late Nov- early Dec refresh for holiday shopping, at least for the 13 inch. That would give them ~6 months of turnover from the most recent model. This is an upgrade timeframe that Apple seems comfortable with, seeing as they went from the late-2016 to the mid-2017 versions in a similar timeframe. I think it's more likely if they only focus on the 13-inch, too-- I think they've done something similar before with a "silent"(ish) refresh of only one of the MBP sizes.

 

[_Kiki_]

Power Consumption: Crucial DDR4-2133
32 GB (Four Modules) 11.85 W
16 GB (Two Modules) 5.94 W

So only 6 Watt difference, not much
Now there is question how much power consumption has LPDDR3 ?

also if your LPDDR3 memory will die, repair will be very expensive after warranty - full logic board replacement included CPU and SSD (TB models), using DDR4 you can replace only memory and repair will be a lot of cheaper (even some memory manufacturers have a lifetime warranty) , also heat from logic board results the LPDDR3 dying easier than DDR4 located in slots

 

[CWallace]

Now there is question how much power consumption has LPDDR3?

When active, it favors LPDDR3 by a small margin, but when idle, LPDDR3 uses significantly less power - by a factor of almost six in certain low-power standby modes per Micron's testing. Which would probably explain why Intel favors and focuses on it on their CPUs designed for slim and light mobile products that come with smaller battery packs and why smartphone and tablet manufacturers use it as both products spend most of their time in standby.

 

[ls1dreams]

Just tell me how HP, LENOVO and DELL have ultrabooks with 32 gb options....

Anyone can go to 32gb, but it means having to use higher power consumption RAM which can impact battery life. Apple is trying to hold out for the next version of LPDDR (5 I think?)

 

[curmudgeonette]

also if your LPDDR3 memory will die, repair will be very expensive after warranty - full logic board replacement included CPU and SSD (TB models), using DDR4 you can replace only memory and repair will be a lot of cheaper (even some memory manufacturers have a lifetime warranty) , also heat from logic board results the LPDDR3 dying easier than DDR4 located in slots

No matter the memory technology, Apple laptops will now have soldered RAM. Observe that even the SSD is soldered in most models - this saves the thickness of a circuit board.

 

[Erdbeertorte]

What about people like me who just need a larger screen but not all that graphics power and more CPU cores?

Can't they just put the current 13.3" (with four TB3 ports) internals in a 15.4" case by keeping everything on the outer side the same? There would also be more space for the battery and they can finally use more than 16GB of RAM, what might be more important for me than then a faster CPU and GPU.

Not that I care about a Touch Bar, nor do I want to pay extra €€€ for it (while Touch ID only would be nice), but this is Apple and they won't do a case redesign that soon.

I have even less hope in a larger non-pro MacBook because that might be rather 14" than 15.4", for what Apple does not have spare displays left.

I really need something that could merge my 2016 12" MB and 2011 17" MBP with the latest and greatest ports but it doesn't has to be much faster. There should just be a cheaper option for a larger display.

 

[bkkcanuck8]

No matter the memory technology, Apple laptops will now have soldered RAM. Observe that even the SSD is soldered in most models - this saves the thickness of a circuit board.

It is not just the thickness of the circuit that is beneficial. It does cost more to repair if you have an issue -- but product reliability improves offsets this. i.e. Over the entirety of all laptops the repair cost (under warranty / under extended warranty) is less than if they had not gone to single board construction. On the flip side when you do want to upgrade it (i.e. more memory) the quality of the build means that the Mac products retain their value longer (usually up until being obsoleted) -- that you can sell your old computer to fund buying a new "upgraded" version - getting both totally new hardware and the upgrade at usually a "reasonable" (Apple version) cost.
[doublepost=1503466075][/doublepost]

Anyone can go to 32gb, but it means having to use higher power consumption RAM which can impact battery life. Apple is trying to hold out for the next version of LPDDR (5 I think?)

LPDDR4 has been out for 2 years at least - and provides significant improvements in areas such as power consumption and allowing for 32gb. The funny thing is that Apple's Axx processors support the newer standard -- while Intel for some odd reason does not seem to think it important enough to support.
[doublepost=1503467075][/doublepost]

Power Consumption: Crucial DDR4-2133
32 GB (Four Modules) 11.85 W
16 GB (Two Modules) 5.94 W

So only 6 Watt difference, not much
Now there is question how much power consumption has LPDDR3 ?

also if your LPDDR3 memory will die, repair will be very expensive after warranty - full logic board replacement included CPU and SSD (TB models), using DDR4 you can replace only memory and repair will be a lot of cheaper (even some memory manufacturers have a lifetime warranty) , also heat from logic board results the LPDDR3 dying easier than DDR4 located in slots

DDR4 will run hotter -- just because it will have a greater power draw and it will be "active" state much more than LPDDR3 will be in an "active" state. Without fast power down mode it will continue to be running "active" while LPDDR3 will be in an inactive state. When you are running the operating system, the operating system continues running constantly launching background threads to do minuscule tasks that are hidden from the end-user. The LPDDR3 will be able to switch into "active" (drawing substantially more power than "inactive") do it and almost immediately power down into inactive mode. DDR4 (again desktop class memory) will not be able to which means it could continue being "active" as the OS constantly launches the next minuscule task to be done.

The entire energy usage of a MacBook Pro is somewhere in the range of 50 to 87 (depending on model) at full load (battery would be depleted in a number of hours). The MacBook Pro has a 76 watt-hour battery already (I think the FAA limit is 100). 6 watts (potentially active during very low load power usage) - is actually quite huge (6 watts if the RAM had fast power down mode would be less of an impact). From reviews, the Dell with 32GB gets about 5 and a bit hours watching movies with no other apps installed. The Lenovo "gets great" battery usage at around 8 hours (but the stupid reviewer only used 8GB of ram with 3 slots empty).... and these are laptops with larger batteries (near the max the FAA allows). [Note: A layman's view on "only 6 watts"]

My MacBook 12" barely makes it across the Pacific (most of the time I am at a desk and I appreciate the small light form factor that is more than enough for coding). I will consider adding a little weight if Apple starts using the 15 watts (under full load) quad-core "U" (Coffee Lake) processors in the 13" MacBook Pro.

 

[chucker23n1]

Given that it's just a Kaby Lake refresh, I'm holding out a minute amount of hope for a late Nov- early Dec refresh for holiday shopping, at least for the 13 inch. That would give them ~6 months of turnover from the most recent model. This is an upgrade timeframe that Apple seems comfortable with, seeing as they went from the late-2016 to the mid-2017 versions in a similar timeframe.

That was eight months. Six months wouldn't be unheard of, but a December release is rare (can't think of any December-released recent Mac other than the 2013 Mac Pro), and the average time between releases is closer to ten months than six.

I think they've done something similar before with a "silent"(ish) refresh of only one of the MBP sizes.

Yes.

Power Consumption: Crucial DDR4-2133
32 GB (Four Modules) 11.85 W
16 GB (Two Modules) 5.94 W

So only 6 Watt difference, not much

6 W is quite a lot, percentage-wise, for these machines. The actual power draw of the MBPs will vary wildly, as e.g. Intel's CPUs will try to aggressively throttle down their power draw when idling (where 'idling' can take even just mere milliseconds).

Now there is question how much power consumption has LPDDR3 ?

Here's one source. (via)

Samsung seems to say that LPDDR3 ranges from 0.004 W in standby to 0.75 W during regular operation.

also if your LPDDR3 memory will die, repair will be very expensive after warranty - full logic board replacement included CPU and SSD (TB models)

That ship has sailed.

also heat from logic board results the LPDDR3 dying easier than DDR4 located in slots

Sure, but OTOH, LPDDR3 will generate far, far less heat in the first place.

 

[JamesPDX]

Just tell me how HP, LENOVO and DELL have ultrabooks with 32 gb options....

Because they're thicker?

Look at this one. It's a real workstation with a real graphics card inside. It's for actual work:
http://www.boxx.com/products/mobile-workstations/goboxx-mxl-vr

Graphics
NVIDIA GeForce® GTX 1070 or 1080

Display
17” Full HD (1920x1080) LED

Ports
One USB 3.1 / Thunderbolt 3
Four USB 3.1 Type A Ports
One HDMI Port
Two Mini Display Ports
Line-Out, Line-In, Microphone-In, and S/PDIF-Out

Hard Drives
2 x M.2 PCI-E SSD 256GB or 512GB
Up to two SATA SSD 120GB to 1TB (Mechanical HDD available)

Communication
Intel 802.11ac Wireless LAN + Bluetooth 4.0
Built-in Gigabit Ethernet LAN 10/100/1000 Mbps
Built-in 2.0M FHD Video Camera

Power Supply
Removable 8 Cell Lithium-Ion Battery
Full Range 300W 100V/240V AC Adapter

Operating System
Microsoft® Windows™ 10 64-bit

Service & Support
Expert support via phone and e-mail M-F, 7AM-6PM CST
[doublepost=1503477634][/doublepost]

1. 10 hours at idle or watching video - as long as you have not installed a bunch of power sucking apps that are constantly activating in the background (e.g. Slack, Intelliij IDEA). If you put a battery in to support 10 hours of "pro workflow" (I had my old 2008 Mac Pro transcoding for 6 months straight 7/24) -- it would be really heavy... and it would not be allowed on a plane when you travel (there are limits placed on battery size). As a person that has done permanent damage to my spine due to carrying heavy laptops on my shoulder while constantly on the road -- I really appreciate the focus on thin and light (even on the heavy MacBook Pros).

2. I actually am fine with thin keyboards as long as long as there is some feedback (i.e. not glass) and I can rely on it registering a key that I press. I can type faster on thin keyboards.

3. I would be happy if they had the same lineup with and without since I have no real need or use for the touch-bar. I would, however, love if the keyboard keys had displays themselves and would change based on language. It is odd, I don't look at the keyboard while typing -- but if the keys are blank... it throws me for some reason (I think I overthink it).

4. The professional market would be better served if the bloody camera companies would actually make their cameras transmit the data faster rather than having it faster to take out the memory and inserting it into a laptop. (IMHO). Put a Thunderbolt port on the camera -- not USB 2.

Yeah, but I gotta ask, which was heavier? The long fast prime, the full-frame camera with the battery-grip, or the laptop?
Did you mean to type 2008 Mac Pro or 2008 Mac Book Pro? -Because, yeah the Mac Pro would be like hauling a Fender tube amp with 2 x 12"s everywhere.

 

[bkkcanuck8]

Yeah, but I gotta ask, which was heavier? The long fast prime, the full-frame camera with the battery-grip, or the laptop?
Did you mean to type 2008 Mac Pro or 2008 Mac Book Pro? -Because, yeah the Mac Pro would be like hauling a Fender tube amp with 2 x 12"s everywhere.

It was my 2008 Mac Pro 8-core running at full CPU for 6 months 24 hours a day. It has sort of handles on the top but it is quite a heavy transportable (I once joked while showing off an IBM PS/2 Model 60 that it was IBM's new transportable -- and someone tried picking it up while it was running [and in those days it could crash the hard drive] -- that was the last time I made that joke ). I just meant I still have a larger computer to backup the very small MacBook 12". It is surprising at how good it is at most tasks... (I don't do video transcoding or rendering on it obviously, and I don't do massive server builds on it)... but it works actually quite good for most tasks... It actually works great for coding on the road. Will wait until next year to decide what to replace it with - I don't really need the power of the Mac Pro (most times)... originally got it so I could run 4 monitors from it... now the MacBook Pro is even capable of that (and has more CPU power in the 15" one). If they came out with a Mac Mini in the form factor of a trashcan with a quad-core CPU with Radeon 580 graphics.... it would be sufficient for me (as long as they have blazing fast SSDs).... It would take me up until my death in 5 years (I have been telling everyone since I was 18ish that I knew I would live up to the age of 57 then die... it would be really embarrassing if I had to backtrack on that at the age of 58 ).

 

[JamesPDX]

You've nailed it!

But if you could use a custom flight/road case plus rack spaces for your DIT gear for that Mac Pro, PM me and I'll send you a link.