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yac_moda said:
SilverSurfer was around for years that would allow Mac users to do this :eek: :eek: :eek:
I think that counts as "unless we buy third-party software".

FWB's Hard Disk Toolkit also does this (as long as you formatted the drive with FWB's driver).

There's also Volume Works and Drive Genius.

But none of them are bundled either.
 
Not in Software Update?

Firmware updates do not appear automatically in Software Update, so you must download them manually.

Why would they not distribute them throught software update? Anyone have an idea? Just curious. That's what Software Update is for and firmware updates for PPC are distributed through Software Update so why not for Intel?
 
shamino said:
I think that counts as "unless we buy third-party software".

FWB's Hard Disk Toolkit also does this (as long as you formatted the drive with FWB's driver).

There's also Volume Works and Drive Genius.

But none of them are bundled either.

It was FREE with a lot of software, Norton Mac bundled it with their utilities anyway.
 
NickCharles said:
Firmware updates do not appear automatically in Software Update, so you must download them manually.

Why would they not distribute them throught software update? Anyone have an idea? Just curious. That's what Software Update is for and firmware updates for PPC are distributed through Software Update so why not for Intel?

I believe that MOST updates can take a couple of days to show up in the auto update, and they post them for download FIRST :eek:
 
yac_moda said:
It was FREE with a lot of software, Norton Mac bundled it with their utilities anyway.
That's a bogus argument, and you know it.

Using that logic, you might as well claim that Microsoft Office is free, because many PC dealers include it with new systems.
 
shamino said:
That's a bogus argument, and you know it.

Using that logic, you might as well claim that Microsoft Office is free, because many PC dealers include it with new systems.

MAN WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM, YOU said it was NOT available for FREE and it WAS -- screw you guys, I'm go-in HOME :eek:
 
When I did the firmware update, the first time I ran it I encountered something wierd. Noises, flashing screen, etc... and i had to do it again on the next startup. It took me 2 tries, but it is fine now!
 
NickCharles said:
Why would they not distribute them throught software update? Anyone have an idea? Just curious. That's what Software Update is for and firmware updates for PPC are distributed through Software Update so why not for Intel?

Because you only need the firmware update if you're installing XP. If they put it in software update, it would go out to everyone, and many people would do a firmware update that they don't need.

yac_moda said:
MAN WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM, YOU said it was NOT available for FREE and it WAS -- screw you guys, I'm go-in HOME :eek:

Bundled with a computer or with other software isn't free. Just like "buy one get one free" isn't really free.
 
Couple of questions:
1. Anyone know whether the beta is time-limited?
2. I'm thinking of doing it (have 17" core duo imac w/1GB RAM) as I still have a couple of windows progs...) BUT if leopard supports running xp progs in a virtualized manner that's - to me infinitely preferable. Dual booting is a PITA. Any thoughts on whether this is a myth?

Cheers
- Andrew
 
Using A VPC image

Do you think it's possible to use a VPC image file for boot camp instead of installing from scratch?
 
yac_moda said:
MAN WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM, YOU said it was NOT available for FREE and it WAS -- screw you guys, I'm go-in HOME :eek:
What's your problem? Don't understand English?

You yourself wrote:
yac_moda said:
It was FREE with a lot of software, Norton Mac bundled it with their utilities anyway.
Only in your imagination does "bundled with a commercial product" mean the same thing as "free".

If you have to buy a copy of Norton Utilities (or anything else) to get it, then it isn't free. This isn't rocket science. This is simple logic.
 
Yay!

All I know is, it boosted the heck out of my Apple stock!
And besides that, I think it's a great move.
You will see huge groups of "switchers" if this pans out, and Mac sales will zoom.
The only problem I see is that now you'll have much more infestation of Macs with viruses, etc.
But I'm sure Apple will take a "run Windows at your own risk" approach.
I am glad to see them developing and supporting the software rather than a third party. They probably realized it's going to happen anyway: why not build it right from the inside themselves.
Or maybe they had this in mind all along when they switched to Intel chips, and were waiting for Leopard to unveil the secret.
Too bad they couldn't have released it on April fools day!
They would have had everyone wondering which end was up!
 
awoodhouse said:
Couple of questions:
1. Anyone know whether the beta is time-limited?
2. I'm thinking of doing it (have 17" core duo imac w/1GB RAM) as I still have a couple of windows progs...) BUT if leopard supports running xp progs in a virtualized manner that's - to me infinitely preferable. Dual booting is a PITA. Any thoughts on whether this is a myth?

Cheers
- Andrew

It is definately not time limited as the firmware is permanent. And really the firmware is what makes this all possible in the first place. If you already had a drive partition available, you should be able to install XP from a CD with just hte firmware update. You'd need the driver CD, but if you're clever you can extract it from the package without running the setup assistant. The problem is that the Dynamic Partitioner doesn't seem to work if you already have multiple partitions. It remains to be seen whether simply having another partition will work in windows. I plan on trying.
 
awoodhouse said:
Couple of questions:
1. Anyone know whether the beta is time-limited?
2. I'm thinking of doing it (have 17" core duo imac w/1GB RAM) as I still have a couple of windows progs...) BUT if leopard supports running xp progs in a virtualized manner that's - to me infinitely preferable. Dual booting is a PITA. Any thoughts on whether this is a myth?

Cheers
- Andrew

Nothing specific, however Apple implies a couple of times on the Boot Camp page that this is a beta of a feature in Leopard. However, can you really call a firmware update and some drivers a feature OF Leopard? They just gave them to us for free and besides, when you're running Windows you are specifically NOT running OS X at the same time. While it has its uses it's also kind of a pain to switch between OSes. I think what we're looking at here is a strong indication that Leopard will support either:

1) Being able to run the two OSes separately but at the same time, so you can switch between them - unlikely
2) Being able to run one OS inside (or at least appear to be inside) the other (possibly switching between the two), with the ability to exchange data a la Virtual PC - drop dead certain.
3) Being able to run Windows Apps in Mac OS X without running Windows itself (and possibly Vice Versa) - man I hope so. It is by far the most useful mode, although perhaps somewhat tricky to implement. But Darwine et al have had decent progress in that regard, and they don't have Apple's vast resources, expertise, and access to the operating system. Look at the current situation - somebody finally managed to hack Windows onto a Mac, and three weeks later Apple has a vastly simpler and superior solution.

That last option has a lot of interesting implications. Presumably they would still look and run like windows apps. But if apple put together some extra windows APIs that let developers modify the appearance of their programs in an apple environment and run more cleanly, with only superficial modifications to their program, the result would be largely indistinguishable from native apps and easy to implement. All those major programs that OS X doesn't have could make their way over rather easily.

This could be counterparted with an API install for windows that lets os x programs run in THAT environment, giving developers the alternative to develop in an Cocoa/Interface Builder/Xcode fashion - which I might add are free and rather convenient - to produce mac-like and/or mac-native programs for windows as well. You could even go farther and do the same with Linux. The lack of equivalent tools from Microsoft could push developers to choose the Apple-friendly route. Exposure to OS X/Apple design philosophies and Human interface guidlines in this manner could only work to Apple's advantage.

Coupled to the sales advantage of all Intel Apples being able to cleanly run all environments, and Apple's marketshare and development community could increase dramatically.
 
aswitcher said:
January 2007 is looking very tempting for a intel Mac now...

Yep, same here. The fact of Adobe's delay and the incomplete range means I won't be buying a new Mac for quite a while.

I just hope that the new Powermac case will be expandable and allow for lots of drives.
 
cryptochrome said:
That last option has a lot of interesting implications. Presumably they would still look and run like windows apps. But if apple put together some extra windows APIs that let developers modify the appearance of their programs in an apple environment and run more cleanly, with only superficial modifications to their program, the result would be largely indistinguishable from native apps and easy to implement. All those major programs that OS X doesn't have could make their way over rather easily.

This could be counterparted with an API install for windows that lets os x programs run in THAT environment, giving developers the alternative to develop in an Cocoa/Interface Builder/Xcode fashion - which I might add are free and rather convenient - to produce mac-like and/or mac-native programs for windows as well. You could even go farther and do the same with Linux. The lack of equivalent tools from Microsoft could push developers to choose the Apple-friendly route. Exposure to OS X/Apple design philosophies and Human interface guidlines in this manner could only work to Apple's advantage.

Coupled to the sales advantage of all Intel Apples being able to cleanly run all environments, and Apple's marketshare and development community could increase dramatically.

I like your thinking!

It's interesting to note that Microsoft recently announced that it would support Vistas APIs on Mac OS X to allow vista type graphics on different platforms. This would surely allow for the possiblity of running Windows programs in OS X without windows? :confused:

It should be interesting to see where all this is going in the future...its all very exciting :D
 
This is great. I don't want to use windows at all, but at least to have the ability is GREAT. This makes me wonder what else could be in store with Leopard.

I also wonder if just the simple use of the software will drive more people to use OSX, kind of a "halo effect" like the iPod. What I am getting at is all the media outlets are saying "how easy" and "apple like" the software install and process is. Once some windows hard liners start using mac OSX, I wonder if they may not be swayed over by the ease of use.
 
My take on this is that Apple decided not to put BIOS compatibility in the original Intel Mac EFI deliberately in an attempt to stall people from installing XP on the Mac before Leopard. Leopard is clearly going to be targeted at Vista. Vista was also expected to include EFI support. Leopard as we can now deduce will also have some pretty cool virtualisation to enable quick switching between OSX and other OSes.
So what's changed. No EFI in Vista. Therefore EFI would need BIOS compatibilty hence the firmware upgrade otherwise Leopard virtualistation would be a lame duck. The hackers got XP running in a limited form. So there was the propect for Apple of a growing number of hacked machines out in the wild that could die horribly during updates. Apple therefore had no opton but to let this one out of the labs a little early. Public Beta - more like a knee jerk stop gap.
I am now more than a little bit eager for early next year when Leopard is out in the wild - try stopping me buying a new intel Mac then.

Just to add that maybe the iPod taught Apple a thing or two about how to achieve success. MP3 support in addition to their prefferred AAC is what helped the iPod take off and the lack of MP3 support killed Sony's attempts. Some people are just itching to switch over but are terrified of what will happen to all their legacy windows apps and data. Give people all they want and they will buy. When I switched I went with VPC and gradually used it less and less. Now it's only sitting on an external firewire drive just in case.
 
cryptochrome said:
1) Being able to run the two OSes separately but at the same time, so you can switch between them - unlikely
2) Being able to run one OS inside (or at least appear to be inside) the other (possibly switching between the two), with the ability to exchange data a la Virtual PC - drop dead certain.
3) Being able to run Windows Apps in Mac OS X without running Windows itself (and possibly Vice Versa) - man I hope so. It is by far the most useful mode, although perhaps somewhat tricky to implement. But Darwine et al have had decent progress in that regard, and they don't have Apple's vast resources, expertise, and access to the operating system. Look at the current situation - somebody finally managed to hack Windows onto a Mac, and three weeks later Apple has a vastly simpler and superior solution.
I prefer 2) over 3), just to keep an incentive to develop OS X apps.

I know, it requires buying, installing, keeping up to date and running Windows, which costs additional money, time and computational resources.
However, I get most of my software for free (blanket campus license) and I do not need network access for my only Windows-only app, so I run VPC currently without network access and have not updated Windows nor Virex for a year now.
 
petej said:
MP3 support in addition to their prefferred AAC is what helped the iPod take off and the lack of MP3 support killed Sony's attempts.

Maybe you meant: 'The fact that mp3s have been supported on iPods and within iTunes since the beginning, and that this did not change when aac was introduced and made the default codec in iTunes helped the iPod to take off...'
 
And since this is going to be built in to 10.5 I wonder if 10.5 will be the stopping point for PPC Macs. Meaning, 10.4 is the last OS that Apple will allow to run on PPC Macs. I know, it doesn't even make sense to me as I type it, but Apple's been known to kill things off pretty fast before...
 
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