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Yea, so Nvidia just turns off the memory controller. Big whoop. Maybe they spin a second chip w/o the IMC and go from there. The point was graphics performance - getting 40SPs (or whatever Nvidia calls them) is what counts.

You are not very likely to get improved integrated graphics performance that is worth a whole lot if move the graphics processors farther away from memory.
Especially if you are stuck with the DMI bus (which are all the lower end Nehalems offer.) QPI perhaps, but Nvidia doesn't have access to that.

It is doable but going to take a performance hit.

If try to add a localized IMC just for the video ram. ....... what you have is a basically a discrete graphics processor. Again putting one of those on the other side of DMI bus ... you have got bottlenecking issues (but reduced to getting the data into localized video RAM). Perhaps "good enough" if your computers "outbound" I/O traffic isn't very high the vast majority of the time. However, won't be able to walk and chew gum at the same time ( stream data to your SSD disk and do intensive 3D).


Could Nvidia do it? It is possible, just not probable. Will it outshine what Intel is offering ??? Probably not.

One, when your key "go to market" strategy is counting on Intel to screw up, long term that is doomed. Sure historically it has been crappy but has been getting better with each iteration. Intel is progressing and devoting more silicon at each step (and incrementally learning to do software better).



Second Clarksfields got a PCI-e 8x or 16x that can be used to hook to a discrete offering. If user has got quad core problems they probably also have discrete graphics problems. So just skip the integrated graphics all together (just don't offer the "save battery" mode with slower graphics). Sure there are some designs don't fit into, but those can often be Arrandale wins. All Intel has to do is make the niche relatively small enough not to support Nvidia building a specialized chipset for a relatively narrow niche. Not convinced Nvidia wants to be a niche southbridge chipset vendor.

In the case of the Arrandale, it is dubious to put two integrated graphics solutions onto the same board. Plus, it also affords the PCI-e 8/16x option.
 
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It will never be fast enough for the complainers on this forum that have been complaining about the graphics cards on all Macs since I joined this forum. These same people who never use their machine for anything other than email, web, and watching video.
 
LOL. Yeah, anything will be faster than the GMA950. :rolleyes:

Yes, but even Intel has moved way beyond the GMA950. The MacBook moved to the 3100 and would have gone to the 4500 last year if Apple hadn't already planned to move to nVidia. The G55 will be another step up, but still no match for what their competitors offer.

If Intel succeeds in blocking nVidia from offering compatible chipsets Apple will probably cripple their entry level machines with the G55 and use discrete graphics in all the other machines. After all there is a class of people for whom simply drawing 2D images and rendering smooth low res video is all they need. Such people wouldn't notice the difference between a G55 and an nVidia 285GTX.
 
my guess on the iMac there will be higher end models offering other video choices.

We shall have to wait and see what this IGP from intel is like, but I not holding my breath.
 
The arrandale processors have the memory controller along with the graphics core at 45 nm, with the dual core processor at 32nm all on the same package (MCM-like design). There is no need for nvidia to provide a memory controller. As Deconstruct has pointed out, there aren't any pci-e lanes available on the arrandale package, and the DMI interface only (theoretically) has enough bandwidth for the io/PCH. This effectively locks out nvidia (and ATI) entirely for the low-end processors unless Apple gets Intel to design a special processor for them again.

The higher end notebooks will have the processors with pci-e lanes available for discrete processors, so nvidia can still provide the discrete units if Apple so wishes.

The thermal specs on the newer processors looks to be about the same as the previous generation if the leaked info around the web is any indication. Current i7 processors give off about as much heat as the previous generation with HT disabled, and the 32nm seem to be similar as well due to added transistors. All that to say, if the mobile quads were too much heat for Apple before, they will be now as well.
 
Noooooo! I love my (discrete) 256MB nVidia 9400M! Don't go back to integrated Intel GPUs!

Discrete graphic card is a whole different beast. Lets watch the terms we are using. The 9400M is still integrated and it is still a piece of crap.
 
Discrete graphic card is a whole different beast. Lets watch the terms we are using. The 9400M is still integrated and it is still a piece of crap.

Wrong. It is technically discrete but it shares ram with the system so many people write it off as integrated. The Intel version was truly integrated with the CPU. The 9400M is not. It's discrete.

I watched all of that before I typed it, as I typed it, and after I typed it. It has been watched.
 
Wrong. It is technically discrete but it shares ram with the system so many people write it off as integrated. The Intel version was truly integrated with the CPU. The 9400M is not. It's discrete.

The Intel GMA GPUs are not integrated with the CPU.

They're integrated with the Northbridge, like the 9400M.

"Discrete" means a separate GPU chip, not GPU integrated into the Northbridge.
 
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It will never be fast enough for the complainers on this forum that have been complaining about the graphics cards on all Macs since I joined this forum. These same people who never use their machine for anything other than email, web, and watching video.

Until Snow Leopard ships you can lump me in that category, but I've always had a solid reason (in my mind) for complaining. Desktop PCs generally ship with integrated graphics like Macs do, but they have always offered a slot (PCI, AGP, PCIe) for those who wanted more. A mere $50 has always bought iMac-like graphics and $200 will put a serious GPU into even the cheapest PC. Apple sticks you with crap and then wants exorbitant money for a mediocre build-to-order upgrade.

Those issues were previously only important to gamers and 3D pros, but now that the world has CUDA, OpenCL, etc. the importance of the graphics engine has taken two steps up the ladder. The stream processing power of your GPU may one day be more important than the speed of the main CPU. The amount of RAM available to the GPU is also going to be much more important than in the past since CUDA requires dedicated RAM that cannot then be used for textures or any other graphics routine. Apple's habit of shipping machines with only half the VRAM found on bargain priced PCIe cards is going to create an artificial bottleneck for OpenCL.

For a premium priced computer brand there is rarely anything premium about a Mac except its OS and enclosure.
 
Isn't the TDP higher with these new processors? Wonder how that plays out in Apple's thin notebooks.
 
The Intel GMA GPUs are not integrated with the CPU.

They're integrated with the Northbridge, like the 9400M.

"Discrete" means a separate GPU chip, not GPU integrated into the Northbridge.

Nehalem moves the Northbridge into the same package as the CPU. This eliminates the opportunity for other companies to make Northbridge chips in competition with Intel. Any manufacturer using an Arrandale chip will be forced to use the integrated Northbridge as a memory controller. From what I've read it will be inefficient to use an external GPU so most Arrandale based machines will be stuck with Intel graphics too. Any manufacturer wanting a better GPU will be forced to buy a more expensive Intel processor that provides QPI connections. Intel wins, everyone else (including you and I) lose.
 
Those issues were previously only important to gamers and 3D pros, but now that the world has CUDA, OpenCL, etc. the importance of the graphics engine has taken two steps up the ladder. The stream processing power of your GPU may one day be more important than the speed of the main CPU. The amount of RAM available to the GPU is also going to be much more important than in the past since CUDA requires dedicated RAM that cannot then be used for textures or any other graphics routine. Apple's habit of shipping machines with only half the VRAM found on bargain priced PCIe cards is going to create an artificial bottleneck for OpenCL.

CUDA and OpenCL allow for speeding up certain types of computations. At least based on the current GPU architecture, the GPU/Stream processors will never be more important than your CPU, as the GPU is far too limited. On the other hand, they are useful for calculations that can be well threaded, don't require any recursion, etc. CUDA and OpenCL are useful in the sciences, financial industry, or for video/rendering software. They have a lot of power there. Hence, Adobe has been making use of it. Adobe's implementation is the only real significant consumer app though.

The crux of the issue is that serious GPU accelerated applications will drive the GPU much harder than typical graphics even, causing the GPU to run much hotter than in normal situations. As well, discrete GPUs of any type aren't worth much for CUDA any more than the typical integrated are in the Apple notebooks. Your not going to be running the CUDA ported NAMD software to run molecular dynamics sims on your 17in Macbook pro any more than you would your macbook. That may be an extreme example of course, but the point is that short of little boosts here and there, I don't anticipate any useful GPU-accelerated applications that won't require a mac pro to use.
 
The arrandale processors have the memory controller along with the graphics core at 45 nm, with the dual core processor at 32nm all on the same package (MCM-like design). There is no need for nvidia to provide a memory controller. As Deconstruct has pointed out, there aren't any pci-e lanes available on the arrandale package, and the DMI interface only (theoretically) has enough bandwidth for the io/PCH. This effectively locks out nvidia (and ATI) entirely for the low-end processors unless Apple gets Intel to design a special processor for them again.

The higher end notebooks will have the processors with pci-e lanes available for discrete processors, so nvidia can still provide the discrete units if Apple so wishes.

The thermal specs on the newer processors looks to be about the same as the previous generation if the leaked info around the web is any indication. Current i7 processors give off about as much heat as the previous generation with HT disabled, and the 32nm seem to be similar as well due to added transistors. All that to say, if the mobile quads were too much heat for Apple before, they will be now as well.


Even if you know a lot about some things, you can be mistaken.

Every Arrandale cpu will have 16x PCIe connections on the cpu in order to allow the use of dedicated graphics chips. So Arrandale doesn't lock out any gpu maker to offer solutions for PCs or Apple.

On that subject, ATI and nvidia are moving to a 40nm process for gpus and ATI already has embedded dedicated graphics chips (GPU + VRAM on the same package, reducing the "real estate" needed to integrate dedicated gpus to small motherboards, like the E4690).

Since Arrandale IOH (southbridge) will/can be much smaller (probably down to 16mmx16mm) than the 9400M chipset (35mmx35mm), I think that Apple can manage to put Arrandale + IOH + dedicated GPU + VRAM on most Macs (except perhaps the MBA, and yet...).

Bregalad said:
Nehalem moves the Northbridge into the same package as the CPU. This eliminates the opportunity for other companies to make Northbridge chips in competition with Intel. Any manufacturer using an Arrandale chip will be forced to use the integrated Northbridge as a memory controller. From what I've read it will be inefficient to use an external GPU so most Arrandale based machines will be stuck with Intel graphics too. Any manufacturer wanting a better GPU will be forced to buy a more expensive Intel processor that provides QPI connections. Intel wins, everyone else (including you and I) lose.

Not true. BS. Cheap shot. One of the key features of Arrandale is: "Integrated, discreet / switchable graphics support".

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Macrumours is great for getting tid-bits of pertinent news, but the short length of articles makes it very clear that most users don't have enough information to draw accurate conclusions.

On naming, Clarksfield is a 45nm quad core mobile Nehalem based chip launching in Q3 2009. It has an integrated dual channel memory controller and an integrated PCIe x16 controller. Arrandale is a 32nm dual core mobile Nehalem based chip launching in Q4 2009. It has an integrated dual channel memory controller, an integrated PCIe x16 controller, and the controversial IGP. Essentially both Clarksfield and Arrandale integrate a CPU + northbridge.

This leads directly to TDP discussions. Current regular Intel Penryn mobile chips are available in 25W, 35W TDPs and 45W for Extreme Editions. This is just for the CPU. The northbridge part of the chipset is usually a bit above 10W TDP, more-so for northbridges with IGPs like the 9400M. Clarksfield will come in 55W Extreme Edition, 45W TDP standard edition while Arrandale will be in 45W and 35W TDP varieties. Since they both are CPU+Northbridge, overall power consumption is unchanged. Apple laptops can use up to 45W Clarksfield or Arrandale and iMacs can use 55W Clarksfields.

Now since Clarksfield and Arrandale integrate the northbridge, notably the PCIe x16 controller for discrete graphics cards, they do not have a high-speed QPI link like Bloomfield Core i7 on desktop. Clarksfield and Arrandale only have a low-speed DMI link to connect to a southbridge for things like SATA, USB, and Ethernet controllers. The limitation that most comes to mind for third-party IGPs like from nVidia is not Arrandale already having an IGP or Nehalem chipset licensing, but the fact that the DMI link does not have the bandwidth to support an IGP integrated into the southbridge trying to access shared system memory which is now on the CPU. An off chip IGP will be bandwidth starved.

Alternatives are for an IGP equipped (nVidia) southbridge to include it's own memory controller and include a small pool of dedicated graphics memory, 64-bit with 64MB or 128MB of DDR2, like AMD's Sideport or previous nVidia TurboCache designs. The problem with this approach is that you are adding cost, duplicating functionality, and using more motherboard area which all go against the point of using an IGP, especially for Apple.

Another way is to link an IGP equipped southbridge through both the DMI links and the PCIe x16 links that would otherwise go to a discrete GPU. This would of course prevent the usage of a discrete GPU which is problematic for the higher-end MacBook Pro and PC desktop chipsets that nVidia would be targetting. nVidia could then implement some type of switch, but that would again add cost, hardware and software complexity, and increase motherboard area.

It seems likely that if nVidia were to try to make an IGP for Arrandale or Clarksfield, it'll either be bandwidth linked through only DMI or will be some sort of less elegant compromise. This means it isn't unreasonable for Apple to seriously consider going back to Intel IGPs.

In terms of Arrandale's IGP, wild speculation on my part would put it's performance on par with the 9400M, perhaps a bit better. While the GMA X3100 was made on a 90nm process, the GMA X4500 was made on a 65nm process. Intel could have used the shrink to double stream processor count, but instead it only increased from 8 to 10 meaning they were already conservative by not using all the potential available to them. Arrandale's IGP will be further shrunk to 45nm, so Intel certainly has the ability to give it at least 16 stream processors or up to 32 stream processors without significantly increasing die area if they are really serious about performance. Thermals should controllable since the 45nm process has been remarkably successful and mature compared to the problematic 90nm process. If Intel were to promise 9400M level performance and OpenCL support in their IGP, I can see Apple deciding to cut their losses over nVidia's IGP uncertainty and just use what is already in Arrandale anyways. Apple could of course try to smooth any hurt nVidia feelings by continuing to use nVidia discrete GPUs, perhaps expanding it into the high-end 13.3" MacBook Pro if possible.
 
This leads directly to TDP discussions. Current regular Intel Penryn mobile chips are available in 25W, 35W TDPs and 45W for Extreme Editions. This is just for the CPU. The northbridge part of the chipset is usually a bit above 10W TDP, more-so for northbridges with IGPs like the 9400M. Clarksfield will come in 55W Extreme Edition, 45W TDP standard edition while Arrandale will be in 45W and 35W TDP varieties. Since they both are CPU+Northbridge, overall power consumption is unchanged. Apple laptops can use up to 45W Clarksfield or Arrandale and iMacs can use 55W Clarksfields.
Thanks for the good info. Hope that clears TDPs up. Although according to this, there doesn't seem to be any 45 W Arrandales.
 
Nehalem moves the Northbridge into the same package as the CPU.

The memory controller moves into the CPU package - the rest of the Northbridge does not.


Any manufacturer using an Arrandale chip will be forced to use the integrated Northbridge as a memory controller. From what I've read it will be inefficient to use an external GPU so most Arrandale based machines will be stuck with Intel graphics too. Any manufacturer wanting a better GPU will be forced to buy a more expensive Intel processor that provides QPI connections.

Arrandale is the "value" package - low price, medium performance, high integration. Yes, if you want higher performance, you don't want Intel's "value" line. It's been that way for years.


Intel wins, everyone else (including you and I) lose.

People who want value (reasonable performance, reasonable price) win. People who want better performance (higher performance, higher price) win too - but they don't buy Arrandale.

The killer issue for Apple people is the fear that Apple's perverse obsession with thin computers will mean that Apple will pick the lower performance Arrandale for its TDP for the MacBookPro - and emasculate the entire lineup for "thin".

People who don't like that need to tell Phil "screw the 'thin' crap, give us some quad core systems that can do some real work - and we don't care if they're 3.5 cm thick and weigh 4 kilos!".
 
Thanks for the good info. Hope that clears TDPs up. Although according to this, there doesn't seem to be any 45 W Arrandales.
Yes, you are probably right that there won't be 45W Arrandales. Although that does leave the interesting alternative, that Apple could use this thermal room to ask Intel to make special Arrandales for them with overclocked GPUs to take full advantage of the 45W TDP, while other OEMs just use the stock 35W TDP Arrandales. It'll let Apple still claim to have a better IGP than other manufacturers without going to the trouble incorporating an off-chip IGP.

The memory controller moves into the CPU package - the rest of the Northbridge does not.
It depends on which Nehalem implementation. Nehalem after-all is a micro-architecture and is not a processor. Bloomfield as seen in desktops and uniprocessor servers just integrate the memory controller and uses high-speed QPI links to the northbridge which is basically now just the PCIe controller and DMI links to the southbridge. But these are high-end chips. Mainstream desktop derivatives and all mobile derivatives integrate the memory controller, the PCIe controller, the slow speed DMI link to the southbridge, and can include an IGP. That basically constitutes the whole northbridge. Intel intends the average user to never see a northbridge again. Only high-end desktop chips and servers will still have a northbridge for now.

And I agree that Apple is stuck on some thin mantra. There is a point where enough is enough, and 1" was it. I don't see what advantage bending over backwards in limiting yourself just to claim "under an inch" thickness gets you other than being able to say said line.
 
The only decent graphics card Intel made was the i740...

Well if you look at it that was the only 3D accelerated graphics card intel made (in PCI and AGP flavors, The PCI version out paced the AGP version BTW) and still could only somewhat compare to the older Nvidia RIVA 128 (this was in the days of VooDoo2 and Nvidia RIVA TNT which was in 1998).

intels only dedicated solution was only out for 18 months before they pulled it off the store shelf's cause no one bought it cause it sucked.

i still have the magazine when it was benchmarked (the mag was called boot).
 
Thanks for the good info. Hope that clears TDPs up. Although according to this, there doesn't seem to be any 45 W Arrandales.

Picking a cooler/lower one under 45 W isn't a problem. That is an upper cap have to work under. Since Apple's form factors tend to have a range of processors enclosed, you design for the one with the highest TDP and the rest just run quieter/cooler.

The other huge Clarksfield factor that folks are overlooking is the price. According to that chart the top of the price range Apple paid for before was the 3.06 Peryn in the $500 bucket (iMacs). Can perhaps use bottom bucket Clarksfield but stuck in that bound. Besides power the "Extreme" options that Intel sells are whacked value wise and would tend to push iMacs into the Mac Pro price bracket.

Unless hook up the PCIe lines, Clarksfield squeezes out everyones IGP solution (Intel as well as 3rd parties ) unless want to take the hit. If stay at the "extreme"/"turbo"/etc. end of the scale for mobile graphics as well, still have somewhat more minor power issues; slightly generous power trade swaps aren't going to wipe that out.
 
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