Intel to Supply Apple with Special High-End Haswell Processors for MacBook Pro

[Count Blah]

I can get no dGPU on MBPs but there is no reason not to put one on a mini as a high end option...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

Sure there is. Apple says - "If you want a dGPU, you have to move up to the next rung in the ladder and pay more for a 15" MBP or iMac".

That's the only reason there has ever been. The second Apple could rip their purposely gimped dGPU out of the mini, they jumped at the chance.

 

[donutbagel]

Dedicated GPU's are the future. AMD and Intel are both starting to put everything on one chip. When you have a single chip you don't have to worry about bus limitations. Eventually we will see graphics cards that require more than what PCIe has to offer and the next logical step will be CPU and GPU integration.

Well, you mean "Integrated GPUs are the future." The idea of a dedicated GPU in a laptop seems sloppy to me, and the dedicated GPU drivers are always the most annoying to deal with. The 15" rMBP seems to run hot compared to the 13", which only has an integrated GPU instead of the confusing dual-GPU setup.

I feel super lucky that 10.8.4 (not even 10.8.3) suddenly started supporting the mid/low-end but brand-new GPU I bought.

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okay I just bought a new mbpr(2.3 ghz i7 quad core, 8gb ram, 256 ssd, geforce 650 graphics card with 3 year warranty) for 2k at bestbuy for college. All I do is game, school stuff, use photoshop and paint tool SAI for drawing. Was I stupid for not knowing a new mbp with a hashwell chip was coming out?!! like seriously? ughh. Should I have waited?

That stinks, but don't worry too much. It's not like college computer spec requirements are increasing at the same rate as the computer specs are improving

 

[jread]

And some people have trouble comprehending that not everyone else has the same needs nor opinions as themselves. It's a trait often found in autistic people. I own both retina and standard displays and for a variety of reasons as a professional photographer and digital artist, I prefer the non-retina anti-glare display on my 15" non-Retina display MBP.

I actually am mildly autistic. That said, I don't see it as just my opinion that a retina display is superior to a standard display, I see it as a fact, and it defies all logic that someone would argue otherwise. Reading that you prefer the standard display over the retina display literally makes my head hurt.

 

[Tech198]

Yay..

Good news here....

Unfortunately, I'm no longer a "pro" ..

 

[kahkityoong]

I actually am mildly autistic. That said, I don't see it as just my opinion that a retina display is superior to a standard display, I see it as a fact, and it defies all logic that someone would argue otherwise. Reading that you prefer the standard display over the retina display literally makes my head hurt.

Well that explains it. The reasons for MY preference would only make your head hurt more especially since your statement is 'fact' and any other explanation would be illogical to you. Carry on in your own little world.

 

[germinator]

My $0.02

1. I am a professional user and I use my MacBook Pro as a desktop substitute. Therefore, a retina display is nice but not a must have. In fact, it's pretty low on my priority list.

2. However, ultimate performance and user-replaceable components, and two storage bays are a must. This means dGPU. And I don't care whether the Iris 5200 matches a 3 year old dGPU. I want ultimate *current* GPU performance

3. I would much rather have a 13" laptop than a 15" one. But given the above, I was forced to get the 15" (so far)

4. If Apple drops the dGPU it will be a huge step backwards for me. Same if only the retina models are carried forwards (no expandability)

5. If that happens there would be little incentive to get a MB Pro rather than a MBA (since I don't care much about retina display) and I would probably go back to the 13" form factor

6. What I really want is a 13" MB Pro with dGPU, dual (9.5 mm or 7 mm) storage bay (or one ePCI and one SATA bay), no optical drive, user-replaceable RAM, user-replaceable battery, standard matte display, optional matte retina display. Oh, and I don't care how thick it is.

 

[devilcm3]

Well, you mean "Integrated GPUs are the future." The idea of a dedicated GPU in a laptop seems sloppy to me, and the dedicated GPU drivers are always the most annoying to deal with. The 15" rMBP seems to run hot compared to the 13", which only has an integrated GPU instead of the confusing dual-GPU setup.

So just because of someone writing bad drivers you strip the better performance dGPU for a measly iGPU?

well done blaming the hardware instead of the guy who did the bad job.

Hardware sticks with your machine for the rest of its lifespan, drivers can be updated.

iGPU has future, but not in high performance graphics market.

 

[mcarling]

I wouldnt' pay over $1500 for a MBP with an iGPU. If this rumor comes to fruition, demand for refurbs/used 2012 portables is going to skyrocket, as will their value. There is no real performance difference between Ivy Bridge and Haswell, only gain in battery life. Those who prefer or need dGPU performance will flock to whatever stock remains of the current crop of portables, and I predict that not only a few will find themselves in this predicament.

That assumes that the iGPU in the Haswell rMBPs will be not only slower, but significantly slower, than the dGPU in the Ivy Bridge rMBPs. I think that is unlikely.

As others have pointed out, Apple's version of the Iris Pro will have to achieve parity with the latest NV and ATI cards, not last year's NV 650M (which the current IP can't even match) or Apple's souped-up 660M equivalent (which uses faster GDDR5 instead of the stock GDDR3 found in the 650M). Time to start looking at the current models before this new line gets released.

Now you have contradicted yourself.

 

[Stephen123]

Well that explains it. The reasons for MY preference would only make your head hurt more especially since your statement is 'fact' and any other explanation would be illogical to you. Carry on in your own little world.

So you're saying your preference for a non-retina display can't be explained? That's just weird.

 

[Tech198]

I reckon this will also be under-clocked, as the Hawell chip on the Air is under-clocked as well..

Presumably, this is how Apple can archive 12 hours on the 13', and i think this will also be true for the Macbook Pro, although it won't be 12 hours, probably 9 or 10 i reckon.

 

[HurryKayne]

Do you have proof? I doubt it.

Just common sense..which Apple hasn't..
no swappable Gpus in the new Dustbin pros?
no discrete gPU at all in the next MacBook pros?

ok..thanks..no money from me this turn
for your pros...in this crisis time its a good way
to save money...thanks Apple..
i hope you like it...

ps.
Apple ..you notice it?you have a problem...
there are real Gpus in the Imacs...
hurry...and cut them..please....

 

[eltaurus]

I would be surprised and irked if they gave up integrated graphics in the pro. As a current rMBP user, I don't think the GPU is currently powerful enough to power its own display. It often lags, and even things like editing a few photos in Aperture can bring this supposedly high-end machine to its knees. When I do the same stuff on my LED Thunderbolt display, they are faster... One of the main features that would make me pull the trigger on an upgrade would be a faster GPU. I don't think MacBook Pro users like myself are as concerned with battery life. Yes... we like good battery life... of course... but 80% of the time, we're plugged in, and we want power. I was really hoping to see significantly better graphics on this next version...

I completely agree with you.. We pro's don't care that much about battery life.. while rendering 3d scene fully charged rMBP 15" will drain in 30-45mins ..

please word processor user ( microsoft word / pages / email / web-browsing / basic photoshop / video editors "even smart phones can edit photos & videos") stop calling yourself PRO's

 

[Count Blah]

That assumes that the iGPU in the Haswell rMBPs will be not only slower, but significantly slower, than the dGPU in the Ivy Bridge rMBPs. I think that is unlikely.

So the fact that we might agree that it is just "slower" than a dGPU, that will have been released a year and half earlier, is a win for MPB buyers how exactly?

I'm confused. BIG price, less performance. Hey, but in true Apple fashion, it might be thinner and lighter for all that lost performance. YIPPEE!!!

 

[donutbagel]

So just because of someone writing bad drivers you strip the better performance dGPU for a measly iGPU?

well done blaming the hardware instead of the guy who did the bad job.

Hardware sticks with your machine for the rest of its lifespan, drivers can be updated.

iGPU has future, but not in high performance graphics market.

It's the hardware's fault that having 2 GPUs in a laptop (integrated and dedicated, which must be done to save the battery) creates problems with heat, and it's inherently difficult to have a dedicated GPU working well with the rest of the system.

 

[HurryKayne]

Already saving up for the next iMac with Haswell (this will be my first Mac). Right now, this is my priority, already have a decent laptop with Windows 7.

Next, I am also purchasing an iPad 5 when and if it comes.

Next, an unlocked iPhone 5S, when it comes.

As for when I do purchase a Retina MacBook Pro:
1. When Broadwell is here
2. Price drop - its too expensive
3. DDR4 and this might actually be after Broadwell, so 2015, gen 4 MBPr?
4. Thunderbolt 2
5. 512 GBs SSD default config
6. Want to be able to purchase it with 16 GB default
7. Have to save for it, since I will be spending quite a bit in 2013 on Apple.
8. Its a want, not a need, so I can wait, still have a 7 year old Acer doing a great job.

if..apple goes to rid gpu everywhere..i won't need any pro ever!
just a mac mini or macbook air
but if they do that i fear we won't see any quad core ever in the air for..
well so long...because they have to sell the AIR pro with quads..
so...i'll stop buyin every laptop from Apple till i won't have an AIR with real GPU
..and Quad...and this means i fear...i won't buy ever anymore Apple's laptop.
Well played Apple..

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I completely agree with you.. We pro's don't care that much about battery life.. while rendering 3d scene fully charged rMBP 15" will drain in 30-45mins ..

please word processor user ( microsoft word / pages / email / web-browsing / basic photoshop / video editors "even smart phones can edit photos & videos") stop calling yourself PRO's

I totally agree with you.

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Already saving up for the next iMac with Haswell (this will be my first Mac). Right now, this is my priority, already have a decent laptop with Windows 7.

Next, I am also purchasing an iPad 5 when and if it comes.

Next, an unlocked iPhone 5S, when it comes.

As for when I do purchase a Retina MacBook Pro:
1. When Broadwell is here
2. Price drop - its too expensive
3. DDR4 and this might actually be after Broadwell, so 2015, gen 4 MBPr?
4. Thunderbolt 2
5. 512 GBs SSD default config
6. Want to be able to purchase it with 16 GB default
7. Have to save for it, since I will be spending quite a bit in 2013 on Apple.
8. Its a want, not a need, so I can wait, still have a 7 year old Acer doing a great job.

And a real Gpu within it...

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Nope, performance difference will be minimal, but battery life will be better. If you don't need all day battery life then upgrading will be a disappointment.

The reason Apple need a 'special' CPU is because iris 5200 is close to 650m in performance but CPU performance has to drop below current 2.7 and 2.8 models. So Apple want both top end CPU with top end GPU integrated. Such a thing doesn't exist so intel is making something close to this just for Apple.

So current top spec rMPB may actually be a better buy at discounted rates for many people.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2

So i have to pay more to have a less which goes close in between 650 and 760m while i can have a real 760 ?...Sorry..this thing won't buy with me..
if Apple will go forward this route..they will make an huge gift to Microsoft and vendors...thats because...Apple is soooooo generous^^...

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Showing your ignorance here buddy. The Iris 5200 has the same performance as a dGPU, you don't need a chip from nVidia any more. That's the whole point of Iris, it's not like the traditional idea of an iGPU.

Seriously for everyone laughing off integrated graphics and saying gamers will be annoyed etc, you really don't understand what Iris is all about. It can match laptop dGPUs. Hence why Codemasters (who make Grid 2) have been advertising it loads, it can play their games at full pelt.

Why Codemasters said so?

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iris pro vs 650m benchmarked over a month ago:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6993/intel-iris-pro-5200-graphics-review-core-i74950hq-tested

spoiler alert: Iris Pro loses by about 20% overall

yes...but...we are not on the 2012 ..when Haswell will land on MacBook Pro
will be almost the 2014...so..do you really want 2012 performances in the 2014
because iris 5200 ..pro will go close to 650m?
I expect to see an huge market for 650 classic mac book pro.

 

[eltaurus]

Nope, performance difference will be minimal, but battery life will be better. If you don't need all day battery life then upgrading will be a disappointment.

The reason Apple need a 'special' CPU is because iris 5200 is close to 650m in performance but CPU performance has to drop below current 2.7 and 2.8 models. So Apple want both top end CPU with top end GPU integrated. Such a thing doesn't exist so intel is making something close to this just for Apple.

So current top spec rMPB may actually be a better buy at discounted rates for many people.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2

Seriously .. who are you people ? what you do .. just do us (real PRO) a favour buy a iPad it can do everything(photo/video edit) as well & amazing thing CPU & GPU is integrated .. you will love it & battery is amazing.

hey ipad beat 90s super computer ( then v are stupid buying MBP / MP instead v should be buying ipad )

http://www.tuaw.com/2011/05/09/ipad-2-would-have-bested-1990s-era-supercomputers/

 

[jread]

Hey, but in true Apple fashion, it might be thinner and lighter for all that lost performance. YIPPEE!!!

The MBP 10-years from now will be a tissue-sized sliver of flexible aluminum that you pull out of your pocket and unfold to use. It will have the processing power of an iPod Nano, but it will be the thinnest, lightest laptop possible. There will be posts in the forum such as:

"Accidentally blew my nose in my MBP! Best way to clean?"

"Was drunk on the toilet and mistakenly wiped my ass with my MBP... will AppleCare cover this?"

 

[HurryKayne]

I have posted my views on different topics, though my fear I guess is that if they drop the dGPU from the 15" rMBP then perhaps the 21.5" iMac and maybe even the 27" iMac will follow which would suck.

And this will lead or to fire instantly someone in their Cda,
or to burn forever Apple to the IOS side or worst.
Seems sort of Studebaker history...
when they lose the users contact...
and starts to give out what they thought
users wanted...
try to buy a Studebaker today,
except from Gas Monkey i mean..

 

[eltaurus]

iris pro vs 650m benchmarked over a month ago:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6993/intel-iris-pro-5200-graphics-review-core-i74950hq-tested

spoiler alert: Iris Pro loses by about 20% overall

really

your point is to compare new technology with old technology..

If you use common sense you will compare (latest) iris PRO with (latest)nvidia GTX 780M

hey ipad beat 90s super computer ( then v are stupid buying MBP / MP instead v should be buying ipad )

http://www.tuaw.com/2011/05/09/ipad-2-would-have-bested-1990s-era-supercomputers/

 

[HurryKayne]

A 15" retina MBP without discrete graphics is not worth the current price tag.

And if they lower that then just dual-quad core will be the difference with Air...

Apple..if there's a PRO label there its because of POWER..not to SAVE energy for the batteries...
and to make IVE happier

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Originally Posted by neutrino23 View Post
Outside of gaming is there any use for the discrete graphics chip? Personally I'd be happy to live without the discrete graphics. I'm more interested in calculations that result in static images.
--------------------------------------------
Originally Answered by locoroco
3D and graphic design

He says so just because the NON PRO users
use to play 3D with consoles...
they don't even realize that 3D its also for
something else..than Facebooking on their Ipads..

 

[mcarling]

So the fact that we might agree that it is just "slower" than a dGPU, that will have been released a year and half earlier, is a win for MPB buyers how exactly?

If you think the 2013 MBPs will be slower than the 2012 MBPs, well, just wait for the benchmarks.

I'm confused. BIG price, less performance. Hey, but in true Apple fashion, it might be thinner and lighter for all that lost performance. YIPPEE!!!

I agree that you are confused. Increased integration is the major source of performance gains with integrated circuits. It is also the major source of cost reduction. Going from a dGPU to an iGPU will reduce costs.

 

[HurryKayne]

Despite Apple's best efforts, I don't believe it is possible for Intel's iGFX to match a discrete chip because:

1) latency - until memory is more unified a la AMD's upcoming unified memory architecture (HSA), there will always be a performance hit when using integrated instead of discrete graphics
2) testing shows that the Iris Pro falls down against the NV 650M discrete graphics chip in several usage scenarios, and especially when shaders are involved. Synthetic benchmarks which show the Iris Pro neck-and-neck with the 650M are not as important to me as real world application use which shows the IP in a lesser light. Despite the claims of some members on this forum, Intel's Iris Pro does not have the same performance as the 650M.
3) Intel does not write good drivers, nor do they keep their drivers updated, for their integrated graphics chips. Does anyone really think this will change when they are introducing new iGPUs every generation?




This is my thought, too. Apple is moving to all integrated graphics for portables. Look at the trend:

1) The move from PPC to Intel's X86 CPUs marked the end of an all-discrete graphics lineup in Apple's portables (12" and 14" at the time) and Apple consequently removed from its boast the Apple.com website that PCs used integrated gfx while Macs used discrete gfx chips.
2) Steve Jobs held up the MBA and pronounced it to be the future of the Mac--behold, it only uses integrated graphics
3) Apple has been pushing Intel to increase its graphics performance for the last two or three generations
4) Apple's obsession with thin and light
5) Integrated gfx bolster the corporate desire for planned obsolescence for Apple hardware thus driving new hardware sales and feeding Apple's need for sustained revenue
6) Recent evidence of new Apple hardware logged on websites has only revealed the presence of integrated graphics on what is believed to be a revised rMBP.
7) Using only iGPUs from Intel will simplify motherboard design and eliminate the need for graphics switching. As stated by others:



8) I think this story is an intentional leak for Apple to feel out the tech community's sentiments before Apple makes such a dramatic change--allows more time to prepare PR spin and may possibly extend the life of the cMBP if there is too much negative press about the change; however, I think an extension is very unlikely.




Correct, and that is the problem. See my next comment.




What about professional users who also need portability? This is a bad decision by Apple and this decision will drive me to hackintoshes in the future. Haswell has enough battery life increase that it can easily be paired with dGPUs and still increase the battery life overall.

I agree with you and i hope point 8 is true.Please Apple listen your users,
you can't put their trust always..every year..such as the Imac 2013 ,,in between the DURANTEs decision to stay or to leave...
power users needs better respect with clear statements..there's no more hype here..just a question about agony..or not..and while i say so i have to confess that its boring to see Apple doing this...its annoying...and life goes forward with Apple or not..and so are going my money..if Apple is ready will take them,otherwise someone will get the chance.

 

[Rend It]

Nothing riles up people more on MR forums than the old iGP vs dGP debate.

Keep in mind that,

A) this isn't the first time Apple used an iGP in the 15" MBP. I think it was the NV 9400M.

B) a lot can be accomplished with the right software/drivers. I recall that early issues with the Retina MBP scroll lag, etc. were later rectified in software updates. I've also read here that Mavericks continues to improve things in this regard. I also recall that some of the Retina performance issues were CPU bound, having nothing to do with the GPU.

C) it's not clear from the article whether this special chip is destined for a 15" or 13", or both. However, it is known that Iris Pro is only available in quad core parts. So, the special aspect could be that Intel is providing Iris Pro in dual core versions for the 13", or it could simply be that Apple is receiving the top bin of the standard Iris parts, so that they can overclock it in the 15". Also, while it may be that the entry level 15" goes iGP only, I seriously doubt that there won't be a version w dGP added.

D) finally, it's worth pointing out that performance comparisons between Iris Pro and dGPs (like 650m) may not represent actual metrics when operating under throttling. The Ivy Bridge rMBPs have a 45-55 W CPU plus another 30 W or so from the 650m. That's a lot of power in that form factor. What matters is whether Haswell w Iris Pro can deliver similar or better performance at the same or lower temperatures.

 

[vmistery]

In other words no discrete chip for more of the range. Not as good news as it may sound in my opinion unless intel have made something equivalent to the 750m (the logical replacement to the current 650m). Something with pro in the name really should have discrete across the board. End of grump.

 

[devilcm3]

It's the hardware's fault that having 2 GPUs in a laptop (integrated and dedicated, which must be done to save the battery) creates problems with heat, and it's inherently difficult to have a dedicated GPU working well with the rest of the system.

well, the IGPU + DGPU combination allows you to have best of both worlds .... performance in demand and battery life.

how do you know it is difficult? apple have been doing this for years since 2008 with 9600M GT + 9400M.
all they need is optimization.