Intel will Unleash 32-nm Processors on January 7th

[cmaier]

I'm not a chip designer, frankly I'm an automation tech, but you could save a lot of trouble here if you could just print out the formula for power draw in CMOS electronics. I can't remember it off the top of my head.

In any event beyound static power draw or leakage power in CMOS logic varies with clock rate. Apparently many here don't know the difference between a GHz and a volt.

As to DYNAMIC voltage adjustments to a running CPU I do not believe that is happening with i86 class processors but I could be wrong as it has been a very long time since I cared about such things. That being said it wouldn't be impossible as modern CPUs can or do control the voltage regulator. From a technical standpoint I suspect that dynamic voltage adjustment would be a big problem for this class of CPU and frankly dynamic gating and shutting off non functional blocks would be much bigger gains. Things do change so I could be wrong but frankly I'd rather see documentation instead of random claims from people that mix GHz and volts.

As to those claiming that 4 CPUs running at a 1/4 of the clock rate of a single core draw less power yes that is possible given the same process and CPU design. But there are qualifications here. For one your static power has to be very low otherwise a good portion of your power budget goes to keeping those for cores turned on. Then you have to consider efficiency of execution, if the software in question requires a fast CPU you loose running on a slow core. In other words 4 CPUs running at 1/4 the clock rate of a single core does not always equal single core performance. I see Intels Turbo Boost as recognizing this. In the end a multi core chip is likely to use more power than a single core chip to complete a quantum of single threaded work.

Dave

Power draw = static + dynamic = static + C x VxV x f. (sometimes times "1/2" depending on how you define "f").

Static power draw increases as voltage decreases (because the low voltages can't shut the devices all the way off) and also increases as feature size decreases - particularly gate thickness.

Of course, f is a function of V, though not necessarily a strong function - if V is too low, then the rise and fall times (switching) can increase to the point where they set the frequency. Ordinarily you don't want to be anywhere close to that point, however, because the longer your rise/fall times, the greater the chance of functional failure due to noise induced during the switching.

 

[cmaier]

Then you obviously didn't read what the person I quoted in my post said.

Yes, you were quoting me. When i said "does intel reduce voltage when reducing clock," i meant DYNAMICALLY, which would have been clear from the context of the conversation up until that point.

 

[jsburns]

Let's suppose that the new chips are used by Apple to upgrade the macbook pro line and they come out over the next couple of months, would there likely be an increase in the price over the current line and if so what are your thoughts on how much. I am new to mac and I am in the market for a laptop. The current line is fine with what I will be using it for but I am in no hurry to purchase so if there will likely only be a nominal increase I would just wait, otherwise, I would just jump in now!

 

[cmaier]

Let's suppose that the new chips are used by Apple to upgrade the macbook pro line and they come out over the next couple of months, would there likely be an increase in the price over the current line and if so what are your thoughts on how much. I am new to mac and I am in the market for a laptop. The current line is fine with what I will be using it for but I am in no hurry to purchase so if there will likely only be a nominal increase I would just wait, otherwise, I would just jump in now!

I don't think they'd raise the prices.

 

[psingh01]

They just lowered the price. They won't raise it again so soon.

 

[shawnce]

Does intel really reduce voltage when reducing clock?

Yes. Intel's "enhanced speed step" can adjust voltage and clock rate independently to reduce power usage. It has been this way for a while (Pentium M IIRC).

Page 18 of http://download.intel.com/design/mobile/datashts/31674505.pdf

2.2
Enhanced Intel SpeedStep® Technology
The processor features Enhanced Intel SpeedStep Technology. Following are the key features of Enhanced Intel SpeedStep Technology:
• Multiple voltage and frequency operating points provide optimal performance at the lowest power.
• Voltage and frequency selection is software-controlled by writing to processor MSRs:
— If the target frequency is higher than the current frequency, Vcc is ramped up in steps by placing new values on the VID pins, and the PLL then locks to the new frequency.
— If the target frequency is lower than the current frequency, the PLL locks to the new frequency, and the VCC is changed through the VID pin mechanism.
— Software transitions are accepted at any time. If a previous transition is in progress the new transition is deferred until the previous transition completes.
• The processor controls voltage ramp rates internally to ensure glitch-free transitions.

Yup Pentium M --> ftp://download.intel.com/design/network/papers/30117401.pdf

 

[chris200x9]

stupid tick i want my toc

 

[gilljoy]

if you go on ebay you could get a 13" MBP for the same price as the macbook, you could get one for $1,100 easy, and its SEALED in box, no taxes and free shipping too, a macbook at apple would cost $1,100 after taxes anyway so its a better deal to get yours on ebay. thats what im going to do

not in the UK i can get a macbook for around £630 after student discount and get a MBP for around £767 ( around $1,238.86) after student discount.

This is with tax and shipping etc from the apple store.

On ebay the basic low end MBP starts at £750 on auctions but mostly its around £850+ for a new one off ebay, i wouldnt buy used on ebay

i'd rather just wait and get it after the refresh with my student discount so i get the 3 year warranty

 

[xIGmanIx]

i have conceeded that chipsets will advance far quicker than the deployment schedule. So to me, featureset to include peripherals, ports etc, are when and where i am going to make my laptop investment. right now, lacking more than a couple USB ports and BD, it won't be an apple and as i grow to like W7 more and more, it might not be ever.

 

[Bubba Satori]

Hopefully there will be a corresponding drop in prices, as there at least should be, which would be a big deal for Intel processors.

Why would it be a big deal for Intel to drop prices on Cpus? They do it 5 or 6 times a year as new Cpus come on line and others are EOL'd, as do other computer makers and component manufactures. Apple being the obvious and most infamous exception. When your customer are deliriously happy that they pay higher prices than inferior Dell junk, why cut prices very often?

 

[sampro]

not in the UK i can get a macbook for around £630 after student discount and get a MBP for around £767 ( around $1,238.86) after student discount.

This is with tax and shipping etc from the apple store.

On ebay the basic low end MBP starts at £750 on auctions but mostly its around £850+ for a new one off ebay, i wouldnt buy used on ebay

i'd rather just wait and get it after the refresh with my student discount so i get the 3 year warranty

oh i was talking about in the US....sucks how the price is higher there, shipping is more if u live out of the us too

 

[sampro]

do you guys think there will be an update for the MBP line in jan? because im going to buy one soon, not sure if i should wait or not, cant wait!

 

[sampro]

not in the UK i can get a macbook for around £630 after student discount and get a MBP for around £767 ( around $1,238.86) after student discount.

This is with tax and shipping etc from the apple store.

On ebay the basic low end MBP starts at £750 on auctions but mostly its around £850+ for a new one off ebay, i wouldnt buy used on ebay

i'd rather just wait and get it after the refresh with my student discount so i get the 3 year warranty

also where i live, a MBP would cost $1,075 after student discount including taxes , in total, so its a good deal here...i mean compared to u....still expensive for a laptop

 

[Maserati7200]

Yes, you were quoting me. When i said "does intel reduce voltage when reducing clock," i meant DYNAMICALLY, which would have been clear from the context of the conversation up until that point.

My bad, I didn't know I quoted you...

 

[shadow1]

well strangly the intel price list hasn't being updated since November 1. Doesn't intel normally have a big fire sale of their old chips.

 

[Apple254]

A kind of brash decision I know, but if MBP's aren't updated in Jan with decent graphics processing capabilities, I am buying a PC. For a student, and most others, a PC is infinitely cheaper. With that said, I am surprised at how decent Windows 7 is. It is a bit annoying as well because I have never owned a Windows computer and never really wanted to.

 

[Bitmap Frog]

A kind of brash decision I know, but if MBP's aren't updated in Jan with decent graphics processing capabilities, I am buying a PC. For a student, and most others, a PC is infinitely cheaper. With that said, I am surprised at how decent Windows 7 is. It is a bit annoying as well because I have never owned a Windows computer and never really wanted to.

Yeah, I need a new laptop and after looking at what everybody else is doing, going Apple doesn't look smart. Sure I like OSX and I'd like to move my laptop to the mac ecosystem, but sheesh... c2d laptops with discrete GPU's can be found very, very cheap these days on top of a broad range of connectivity options: hdmi, esata, firewire, usb, expresscard, card reader for sd/cf, etc. And I'm not sure OSX and a few grams of aluminum are worth 400€ and losing all those ports. And I'm willing to bet next revision won't have USB 3.0 nor FW1600 or whatever...

Not to mention blu-ray movie playback is available on pc's...

I know I'm beating a dead horse and that those points are a commonplace in these forums, but things are becoming... weird with apple's laptops.

Oh well, long live The iDevice Company.

 

[AidenShaw]

do you guys think there will be an update for the MBP line in jan? because im going to buy one soon, not sure if i should wait or not, cant wait!

No one here can predict the future of Apple. Apple is infamous for trying to surprise its customers with upgrades.

Other computer makers will have new systems the first week of January. Apple?

Apple will most likely have new systems the first quarter of 2010. They may be out the first week of January, but it could be the last week of March.

When you need a new computer, buy it. If you can wait, then wait - since something better might come out.

Today, though - if you can wait until the end of January - then wait. If you can't, then buy now.

 

[lordonuthin]

I guess I haven't read it anywhere but will Apple's Grand Central and Open CL function with Intel itegrated graphics? If not then Apple would have to add discreet gpu from ATI or Nvidia, otherwise what would be the point of GC & OCL? I would think it would benefit laptops and other small form Apple computers the most, which would be most likely to use integrated gpu's...

 

[AidenShaw]

...otherwise what would be the point of GC & OCL?....

Yes, it would be pointless for Apple to introduce major software features that depend upon particular hardware components that change month by month.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

Why would it be a big deal for Intel to drop prices on Cpus? They do it 5 or 6 times a year as new Cpus come on line and others are EOL'd, as do other computer makers and component manufactures. Apple being the obvious and most infamous exception. When your customer are deliriously happy that they pay higher prices than inferior Dell junk, why cut prices very often?

The big deal that I was referring to is the higher price on average for a mainstream or performance level Intel processor, versus AMD. The 32nm process should allow them to lower the prices, however, across the board, which would be awesome.

 

[Eidorian]

The big deal that I was referring to is the higher price on average for a mainstream or performance level Intel processor, versus AMD. The 32nm process should allow them to lower the prices, however, across the board, which would be awesome.

New processors replace the previous generation at the same price points. The 32nm processor is going to allow more processors per wafer but prices aren't going down.

 

[Maserati7200]

I guess I haven't read it anywhere but will Apple's Grand Central and Open CL function with Intel itegrated graphics? If not then Apple would have to add discreet gpu from ATI or Nvidia, otherwise what would be the point of GC & OCL? I would think it would benefit laptops and other small form Apple computers the most, which would be most likely to use integrated gpu's...

Good point. As of now, INtel integrated graphics are not supported by GCD and Open CL. I hope they could just get these CPU's w/o intel crap.

 

[Eric S.]

Good point. As of now, INtel integrated graphics are not supported by GCD and Open CL. I hope they could just get these CPU's w/o intel crap.

By "intel crap" I assume you mean the GPU and not the CPU, right.

But what would be the point of that? As I understand it, the IGP can be disabled and a discrete GPU used in any case. So what would be gained by not having an IGP?

 

[Maserati7200]

By "intel crap" I assume you mean the GPU and not the CPU, right.

But what would be the point of that? As I understand it, the IGP can be disabled and a discrete GPU used in any case. So what would be gained by not having an IGP?

Yes, I mean the GPU. The current 9400M/9600GT combination is really good because you get good graphics (on the standards of integrated gfx) and battery life with the 9400M, and for the extra horsepower, all you need to do is switch to the 9600GT. With the IGP, you will either have to disable it and not get the advantage of integrated gfx power consumption when you need it, or enable it and have bad graphics in power saving mode instead of decent graphics like you had with the 9400M.