Intel's New 3D NAND Technology Allows for Greater Than 10TB Solid-State Drives

[skratch77]

"Intel and Micron claim that the 256Gb MLC version of 3D NAND is being sampled by select partners beginning this week, while the 384Gb TLC design will be sampling later this spring. Both devices are slated to enter full production in the fourth quarter, and both companies are developing separate lines of SSD solutions based on 3D NAND technology that are expected to be available within the next year."

Wow they have 256gb and 384gb getting ready to sample while Samsung is already SELLING 1TB 3d nand drives.

What a horrible misrepresentation of 3d nand

 

[szw-mapple fan]

Introducing the iPhone 7:

On a 2 year contract, the iPhone 7 will start at $199 for 16GB, $299 for 64gb and $1199 for 1TB.

We think you're going to absolutely love the most advanced iPhone ever.

More like iPhone 17.

 

[Apple-Guy]

I want this noawwwww!!!

Now we just need to get over FAT32 and get our file sizes swinging!

 

[alex0002]

Someone reading the original post would think 1) 3D NAND is an Intel/Micron invention.

That depends on what you mean by "invention".

Patents:

Vertical NROM NAND flash memory array
US 20050133860 A1
Filing date: Dec 17, 2003
Original Assignee: Micron Technology, Inc.

Vertical NAND flash memory device
US 7369436 B2
Filing date: Jul 27, 2005
Original Assignee: Micron Technology, Inc.

2) 3D NAND won't be on the market for some time. Basically the post is undersourced and poorly written.

You're right about the phrase "3D NAND won't be on the market", needs the wording changed to state that "Intel/Micron 3D NAND won't be on the market" for some time.

 

[69Mustang]

That depends on what you mean by "invention".

Patents:

Vertical NROM NAND flash memory array
US 20050133860 A1
Filing date: Dec 17, 2003
Original Assignee: Micron Technology, Inc.

Vertical NAND flash memory device
US 7369436 B2
Filing date: Jul 27, 2005
Original Assignee: Micron Technology, Inc.



You're right about the phrase "3D NAND won't be on the market", needs the wording changed to state that "Intel/Micron 3D NAND won't be on the market" for some time.

You'll have to forgive me. I'm not sure where you're going with the patent information. Though informative, it has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

My only point was the article was inadequately written. It presents 3D NAND (all encompassing) as a future product. A competently written article would have said this is a version of 3D NAND, and not just 3D NAND - full stop. A competent article would have mentioned another version of 3D NAND is already on the market. Hope that clears up what I was talking about.

 

[shaunp]

I expected tape to hang in there just a bit longer myself. But we've recently handed off all of our archiving to geographically-dispersed 3rd party services and retired the ol' jukebox. I've still got a firesafe full of media in a legal hold, but I'm in for a tough week if I ever have to mount them.

The problem with tape is that it's too people-intensive to manage. People are expensive, so like everything else, the cost pressure to automate the data lifecycle wins out.

Yep, I agree I work on several projects to redesign backup solutions because tape is too expensive and in most cases it is feasible to replace it with a good VTL, so long as you review the business processes at the same time. There are some data that just won't work on a VTL though, it doesn't dedupe, or it has to be just kept for 40 years for compliance, but will probably never be read. Its for these exceptions that tape will be around for a long time.

 

[alex0002]

You'll have to forgive me. I'm not sure where you're going with the patent information. Though informative, it has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

I was simply responding to this part from your earlier post...

Someone reading the original post would think 1) 3D NAND is an Intel/Micron invention.

Perhaps someone reading the original post would think that 3D NAND is an Intel/Micron invention, but would that be a bad thing?

 

[Dionte]

But is it cheaper.

 

[the8thark]

Is an SSD better for that? I thought SSDs had a much shorter lifespan than HDDs despite being more reliable.

I actually thought the same too. But SSD tech is improving. At the moment for large amounts of data it's cheaper per GB to use platter still. But in 10 or 20 years will the ports on our old platter HDDs still be able to be plugged into the modern at the time in the future computers? And will the computers be able to read the then ancient file systems on the HDDs?

All issues I think about when I archive my data for long term storage.

 

[Keirasplace]

I actually thought the same too. But SSD tech is improving. At the moment for large amounts of data it's cheaper per GB to use platter still. But in 10 or 20 years will the ports on our old platter HDDs still be able to be plugged into the modern at the time in the future computers? And will the computers be able to read the then ancient file systems on the HDDs?

All issues I think about when I archive my data for long term storage.

I'd be more worried about the bus being incompatible and not being able to plug in the disk into that bus... Reading old data once you physically have access to it isn't usually an issue. Someone will have done the software work.

If its an external USB drive, I'm guessing that as long as you have the long string of adaptors needed to connected it to whatever, or maybe a wireless adapter where you don'T need to worry about physical port, you'll be OK.

 

[AlecZ]

I actually thought the same too. But SSD tech is improving. At the moment for large amounts of data it's cheaper per GB to use platter still. But in 10 or 20 years will the ports on our old platter HDDs still be able to be plugged into the modern at the time in the future computers? And will the computers be able to read the then ancient file systems on the HDDs?

All issues I think about when I archive my data for long term storage.

So you're a proponent of OS X supporting ZFS, right?

 

[Packdude]

Lord willing, we'll soon be looking back at these days and thinking, wow, you remember when we had had to deal with16 GB of space on a phone? I still look back at the 1990's and think, wow, I can't believe we thought 16 MB of space was huge.

My first computer had a 120MB hard drive. A friend laughed and said I would never need that much space!

 

[tbrinkma]

That's good. But what if, for example, the power supply in the MacBook, let's say, breaks, or it gets run over by a truck, or simply dropped, or whatever, and you can't even power it up, and "they've" permanently installed the 'disk drive' on to the motherboard? Being able to physically remove those things is starting to get iffy. I guess I could take it to the shooting range.

No, thank you. I don't want one. I've been around electronics for too long.

Well, if the power supply gets run over by a truck, and you can't even power up the MacBook, you simply open the case and remove the SSD module. I'm not sure where you got the idea that it was permanently attached to the motherboard, but it's an easily replaced module.

 

[tbrinkma]

"Intel and Micron claim that the 256Gb MLC version of 3D NAND is being sampled by select partners beginning this week, while the 384Gb TLC design will be sampling later this spring. Both devices are slated to enter full production in the fourth quarter, and both companies are developing separate lines of SSD solutions based on 3D NAND technology that are expected to be available within the next year."

Wow they have 256gb and 384gb getting ready to sample while Samsung is already SELLING 1TB 3d nand drives.

What a horrible misrepresentation of 3d nand

Yep... They have a 256GB and 384GB *CHIP* getting ready to sample, so you'll need solder a whopping 3-4 of these chips onto a board* to give a 1TB drive.
* along with the drive controller, etc. that all drives need.

Samsung doesn't have a 1TB 3D NAND *chip*. (Given that the drives they advertise as 3D V-NAND start at 128GB, I'd hazard a guess that that's their chip capacity, which means the equivalent drive would either be 2TB (if using the same number of chips), or take half the chips (if staying at 1TB drive space. Based on die-layout efficiency numbers posted earlier in the thread, a disk using the Intel modules might be able to get 2.5TB of storage in the same physical space as the 1TB module from Samsung.

Undoubtedly Samsung will catch up with the density being rolled out by Intel in fairly short order, and they'll probably spend the next several years playing 'leap frog' on that front, but let's not conflate a drive consisting of multiple NAND chips with a single NAND chip when we're doing comparisons.

 

[the8thark]

So you're a proponent of OS X supporting ZFS, right?

Yes. Probably will not happen though. I think Apple will skip it and move to something even better in the future. ZFS exists now and Apple seem to be not in any mood to use it much outside Jon Ive's lab.

I'd be more worried about the bus being incompatible and not being able to plug in the disk into that bus... Reading old data once you physically have access to it isn't usually an issue. Someone will have done the software work.

If its an external USB drive, I'm guessing that as long as you have the long string of adaptors needed to connected it to whatever, or maybe a wireless adapter where you don'T need to worry about physical port, you'll be OK.

By the adapters while they exist now, so you can chain them all together in 20 years time when you need the data again.

Wireless might or might not be good. Today we have 802.11 AC. But I don't think much can work with 802.11 A or B anymore if I understand it right. And in 20 years time we will be on 802.11 HJ or something stupid like that. Totally way more advanced than what we have now.

 

[AlecZ]

Lord willing, we'll soon be looking back at these days and thinking, wow, you remember when we had had to deal with16 GB of space on a phone? I still look back at the 1990's and think, wow, I can't believe we thought 16 MB of space was huge.

The difference is that we never consider the iPhone storage space huge

 

[skratch77]

Yep... They have a 256GB and 384GB *CHIP* getting ready to sample, so you'll need solder a whopping 3-4 of these chips onto a board* to give a 1TB drive.
* along with the drive controller, etc. that all drives need.

Samsung doesn't have a 1TB 3D NAND *chip*. (Given that the drives they advertise as 3D V-NAND start at 128GB, I'd hazard a guess that that's their chip capacity, which means the equivalent drive would either be 2TB (if using the same number of chips), or take half the chips (if staying at 1TB drive space. Based on die-layout efficiency numbers posted earlier in the thread, a disk using the Intel modules might be able to get 2.5TB of storage in the same physical space as the 1TB module from Samsung.

Undoubtedly Samsung will catch up with the density being rolled out by Intel in fairly short order, and they'll probably spend the next several years playing 'leap frog' on that front, but let's not conflate a drive consisting of multiple NAND chips with a single NAND chip when we're doing comparisons.

Samsung is a full year ahead of Intel micron and please tell me where they are sampling per chip.they are talking about WHOLE drives hitting 384 gb not single chip and 1 tb drives out next year.by that time Samsung will be deep into 3+ tb drives.

Ohh and please show us while your at it where I can get a 3d ssd drive from them? I mean according to the article they are the first people using v nand but I guess they never heard of Samsungs v nand lol

Samsung is selling 1tb v nand drives right NOW

 

[fastasleep]

Samsung is a full year ahead of Intel micron and please tell me where they are sampling per chip.they are talking about WHOLE drives hitting 384 gb not single chip and 1 tb drives out next year.by that time Samsung will be deep into 3+ tb drives.

This is incorrect. They are referring to the individual die size being 256 or 384 Gb. A drive of a certain size is made up by x number of dies on the board that add up to the total capacity.

For example, the Samsung 850 Pro uses 86Gbit 40nm MLC V-NAND, and how large the drive is determines how many of each of those 86Gbit dies is present.

Also I'm not sure what a 'gb' is but Gb is Gigabit and GB is Gigabyte and those things are different quantities.

 

[skratch77]

This is incorrect. They are referring to the individual die size being 256 or 384 Gb. A drive of a certain size is made up by x number of dies on the board that add up to the total capacity.

For example, the Samsung 850 Pro uses 86Gbit 40nm MLC V-NAND, and how large the drive is determines how many of each of those 86Gbit dies is present.

Also I'm not sure what a 'gb' is but Gb is Gigabit and GB is Gigabyte and those things are different quantities.

Samsung is using 32 layer cells just like micron

 

[tbrinkma]

Samsung is using 32 layer cells just like micron

You've been corrected at least *twice* now, but you still don't understand what's actually being said, so you're replying with a non-sequitur.

 

[skratch77]

You've been corrected at least *twice* now, but you still don't understand what's actually being said, so you're replying with a non-sequitur.

Please show us those single chips ps Samsung just sampled 10nm nand

The evo 850 m sata is using 128gb dies and is the only company getting 16 on a packege out and shipping.

Even anandtech says micron has these on paper but have not seen anything yet.

This article is a straight up lie at best and is not giving credit to Samsung for actually using and selling 3d v nand drives.

Here is anandtechs review on the evo 850 m and just 2 chips gets it to 500GB and it's out and shipping in mass quantity
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9023/the-samsung-ssd-850-evo-msata-m2-review