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*sigh*
The EA games in the pipeline will play fine on minis and MacBooks, fly on iMacs, and scream on the few Mac Pros that actually get used for gaming. Certainly good enough for 99% of Mac users. Settle down and get some perspective.

Ok, there is no such thing as a modern game that will play fine on a Mini or MacBook, not with that ****** integrated GMA 950. I was really hoping we would see santa rosa with the x300(0?) chips, though those are not much better.

When a Mac Pro $2,000+ does not out pace a $350 xbox 360 then their is a problem, and it is a problem.

The absolutely only reason these graphics would be good enough for 99% of the mac population is because anyone who really cares about games has moved away from the Mac platform, which is indeed not a good thing. Realistically I believe it is more like 88%.
 
It's a logical deduction since Intel doesn't sell 2.8GHz Meroms while Apple offers them for $250 on new iMacs if you're willing to wait a month for delivery. So my GUESS is that intel is certifying some of their 2.6 Meroms as overclockable to 2.8 and selling those units to Apple as such. Meanwhile, the 17" MBP awaits the plain old 2.6GHz model as an option this Fall (I Hope).

Intel officially approved overclocking. The fact was posted to either MacRumors or Slashdot for sure.

Rocketman
 
Ok, there is no such thing as a modern game that will play fine on a Mini or MacBook, not with that ****** integrated GMA 950. I was really hoping we would see santa rosa with the x300(0?) chips, though those are not much better.

When a Mac Pro $2,000+ does not out pace a $350 xbox 360 then their is a problem, and it is a problem.

The absolutely only reason these graphics would be good enough for 99% of the mac population is because anyone who really cares about games has moved away from the Mac platform, which is indeed not a good thing. Realistically I believe it is more like 88%.

You do realize that the xBox and other gaming machines aren't as capable as desktop workstations right? I doubt the Mac Pro would get beaten by a gaming machine when used for video editing. You are right about that GMA 950, I was hoping for better when the updates rolled around but I just sucked it up and got the MacBook Pro.

Most people that care about games are going to buy a PC or build their own... I was one of them, but I still wanted my Mac. In the end... I gave up on games. Stopped way back when with Dark Reign 1 and 2, Sim City, Civilization 1, and the first Red Alert. Got a Mac... games wouldn't work... threw the games away and looked for Mac equivalents. :D

Now they are coming back.... SWEE!:cool:
 

I'm the one that should be sighing at the reply of yet another Apple apologist that doesn't get it at all.

HOW TO BUILD A GAMING MACHINE:

Step 1: Buy the very best graphics card you can afford.
Step 2: Buy the cheapest reliable motherboard you can find that works with the card from Step 1.
Step 3: Max out the memory, overclock the CPU, put in a good cooling system.
Step 4: Frag your buddy.

Apple will *never* make a machine which rivals something like that. There is almost ZERO market for a pre-built "gamer" machine, because hard-core gamers like to build their own systems which target the dollars where it

Who said I was a hard core gamer? I am not. But like MOST PC users (or former PC users), I DO occasionally play a game on my computer and WHEN I do, I don't want it to run at 20fps, which is what the new iMacs are giving with certain new games at native LCD resolutions. Asking for 80fps on those games is hardly hard core. Hard core systems can do 120+ or more.

Now what I WANT to do is get rid of my old PC an *NOT* have to buy another one! I don't want to hear about gaming consoles either. There are some games that only really 'work' well on computers. I mean we're not talking about a gaming iMac, but perhaps an iMac (or better yet a low-end MacPro type setup or mini-tower) that has a REASONABLE graphics card that won't be totally obsolete in a year or two. This is especially important on iMacs because you can't replace the darn card. At least if I buy a MacPro, I can assume sooner or later a newer card will be offered for it so it won't be obsolete next year. But this newest set of iMacs are OBSOLETE ON ARRIVAL!!! They are actually SLOWER than the previous generation o iMac with the NVidia option! There is NO EXCUSE that any REASONABLE person would take or believe for that! I've been waiting for the refresh, expecting an iMac I could live with, but instead they go BACKWARDS!

The MacPro is the ONLY viable Mac to run games beyond 2007 period. The MBP does better than the top of the line iMac even! That's unbelievable to me.

But what I really get sick and tired of is people making EXCUSES for Apple's total and utter incompetence in this area. If you don't like playing games or only play games on a console, FINE. Ignore our pleas and comments. You might as well go buy a MacMini because unless you do 3D video, you don't NEED even what the iMac offers. Intel GMA is good enough forever! 2D rules the world in 2007!

But some of us do more than browse and play with Garage Band. I thought the move to Intel was a god-send. FINALLY, I could ditch the Windows platform for good because I could run parallels or boot camp for my legacy software while I slowly ween off Windows entirely (I *HATE* Vista for more than one reason). But that doesn't mean I want CRAP hardware!

I've heard this song and dance about how long Macs last (shelf life) and how great their hardware quality is, but the truth of the matter is the newest ones are ALREADY obsolete. What good does it do to have great so-and-so specs, but then have utter and total CRAP for the graphics? Graphics are more important than ANY other system on a computer, IMO. They're what you see every day and interact with (followed by sound, which is also often ignored and to get really good sound on a Mac you need a Firewire box because new Macs don't even have what most PCs have and that is 5.1 or better standard sound.)

It just seems to me for all the hoopla about Apple Hardware, the REALITY is beyond form factor, it's really a sad joke. Just because it's way better than the lowest/cheapest Dell out there doesn't mean it's 'great' in any sense of the word! I can put together a higher-end Dell (let alone building my own) for way less than the mid-road iMac that will run circles around it in almost all areas! You can't even pay more (dollar for dollar) to get a faster iMac because there is no such thing!

I realize Apple makes most of their money selling hardware so my dream of being able to buy MacOS X for any hardware I want isn't likely to happen any time soon, if ever (without hacking anyway), but if I HAVE to buy Apple's hardware, then at least offer me hardware I want to buy, even if I have to pay a little more!

Macs can run Windows too now and that means access to Windows games. Steve Jobs touted Electronic Arts' return to the Mac, so how about offering us a reasonable way to play those games, Mr. Jobs....
 
Magnus, you and I are in the same boat, I think.

Having decided to switch, I've waited for the last 8 months for Apple to update the iMacs, assuming that a better video card would be in the offering. Naturally, I was pretty damn pissed off to see the new iteration. I also happen to think they're pretty damn ugly, but that's neither here nor there.

I am, however still desirous of the Mac platform, as I'm sick of XP, and have no interest in moving to Vista. I find my only choice is now to get a Mac Pro. Thus I've been thinking about the Mac Pro option, in terms of my needs, and whilst I initially dismissed it as too expensive, I've been thinking about it more, and whilst it's true that all I need is an iMac with a better video card, that doesn't mean that a Mac Pro is actually a bad buy for a gamer - even a non-hard-core gamer.

What it requires, really, is a slightly changed philosophy on gaming hardware. Now, generally speaking, my 4.5 year old AMD Athlon XP 2200+ with 1GB of RAM actually gets me by pretty well for gaming, with the exception of my rather crappy Radeon 9600 video card. Theoretically, I could just upgrade my video card, and squeeze a slightly longer gaming life out of my machine. Except of course, for the fact that I want to play Supreme Commander (which, due to its excessively accurate physics and complex AI, requires Dual Core or a processor roughly twice the speed of mine), and also because my motherboard uses the now discarded AGP slot for its video card.

Now, the point I'm trying to make is that while games like Supreme Commander provide exceptions to the rule, generally speaking, gaming advances lean much more heavily on the graphics cards than the processors. The result being that you can get away with using the same CPU for half a decade, assuming that the industry doesn't decide to change the graphics card adapter standard, meaning that a graphics card update necessitates a new motherboard, and with it a new processor, RAM, &c. (which is where I am). Now, if we consider the Mac Pro, it offers more processing power than we need - twice as much, really. Gaming rigs these days are either sticking in the last of the single core processors from AMD, or the shiny new dual-core Intels. Gaming rigs with quad-core, however, are pretty much unheard of. This is significant, because buying a Mac Pro puts you ahead of the game. Whilst games are only beginning to be written to take advantage of multiple cores, over time, this will become more common-place, just as, over time, dual core PCs will become commonplace, and gamers will eventually start moving to quad core.

The point being, whilst a top of the line PC will probably get you by for 4-5 years, with appropriate video card upgrades, I believe that a Mac Pro (Say, the 2.66 with the x1900, which is what I'm looking at) ought to last around a 6-8 year range. (Again, obviously the video card will have to be upgraded eventually). And when that time comes, theoretically I could just find two "old" 3.0GHz Quad Xeons that are currently in the top-of-the-line Mac Pros to pop in, and more than double my processing power, without having to upgrade everything else.

The point being that the extra $1000 (Australian) that I'll spend getting a Mac Pro over a sufficiently spec'd PC will buy me a lot more longevity than it would if I threw another $1000 at the PC (given the lack of options in terms of quad core on the market, and economies of scale with Apple, &c.). The value of the Pro also becomes more apparent when you consider noise - I leave my computer on at night, (in my room while I sleep) for various reasons, and over the years I've spent somewhere in the range of $400-500 trying to make it quieter (custom heatsinks, special case, quiet PSU) and the result is a machine that's still nowhere near as quiet as a Mac Pro. Now, noise may not necessarily be an issue for you, but it certainly is for me, and when factored into the cost equations, makes the Mac Pro look that much more reasonable.

The point I'm trying to make is that whilst it's true that a Mac Pro is more than what you need, it's more-than-what-you-need at a price that's cheaper than more-than-what-you-need in PC form. Because the Mac Pro is a somewhat popular machine, economies of scale make it possible to buy hardware that wouldn't make sense for a PC builder, but which can nevertheless work economically. It just requires changing from a "buy slightly-above-mid-range hardware and upgrade every couple of years" mentality to a "buy high-range hardware and upgrade once a decade or so" mentality.

Well, that's what I'm thinking, anyway.


I'm the one that should be sighing at the reply of yet another Apple apologist that doesn't get it at all.


Who said I was a hard core gamer? I am not. But like MOST PC users (or former PC users), I DO occasionally play a game on my computer and WHEN I do, I don't want it to run at 20fps, which is what the new iMacs are giving with certain new games at native LCD resolutions. Asking for 80fps on those games is hardly hard core. Hard core systems can do 120+ or more.

Now what I WANT to do is get rid of my old PC an *NOT* have to buy another one! I don't want to hear about gaming consoles either. There are some games that only really 'work' well on computers. I mean we're not talking about a gaming iMac, but perhaps an iMac (or better yet a low-end MacPro type setup or mini-tower) that has a REASONABLE graphics card that won't be totally obsolete in a year or two. This is especially important on iMacs because you can't replace the darn card. At least if I buy a MacPro, I can assume sooner or later a newer card will be offered for it so it won't be obsolete next year. But this newest set of iMacs are OBSOLETE ON ARRIVAL!!! They are actually SLOWER than the previous generation o iMac with the NVidia option! There is NO EXCUSE that any REASONABLE person would take or believe for that! I've been waiting for the refresh, expecting an iMac I could live with, but instead they go BACKWARDS!

The MacPro is the ONLY viable Mac to run games beyond 2007 period. The MBP does better than the top of the line iMac even! That's unbelievable to me.

But what I really get sick and tired of is people making EXCUSES for Apple's total and utter incompetence in this area. If you don't like playing games or only play games on a console, FINE. Ignore our pleas and comments. You might as well go buy a MacMini because unless you do 3D video, you don't NEED even what the iMac offers. Intel GMA is good enough forever! 2D rules the world in 2007!

But some of us do more than browse and play with Garage Band. I thought the move to Intel was a god-send. FINALLY, I could ditch the Windows platform for good because I could run parallels or boot camp for my legacy software while I slowly ween off Windows entirely (I *HATE* Vista for more than one reason). But that doesn't mean I want CRAP hardware!

I've heard this song and dance about how long Macs last (shelf life) and how great their hardware quality is, but the truth of the matter is the newest ones are ALREADY obsolete. What good does it do to have great so-and-so specs, but then have utter and total CRAP for the graphics? Graphics are more important than ANY other system on a computer, IMO. They're what you see every day and interact with (followed by sound, which is also often ignored and to get really good sound on a Mac you need a Firewire box because new Macs don't even have what most PCs have and that is 5.1 or better standard sound.)

It just seems to me for all the hoopla about Apple Hardware, the REALITY is beyond form factor, it's really a sad joke. Just because it's way better than the lowest/cheapest Dell out there doesn't mean it's 'great' in any sense of the word! I can put together a higher-end Dell (let alone building my own) for way less than the mid-road iMac that will run circles around it in almost all areas! You can't even pay more (dollar for dollar) to get a faster iMac because there is no such thing!

I realize Apple makes most of their money selling hardware so my dream of being able to buy MacOS X for any hardware I want isn't likely to happen any time soon, if ever (without hacking anyway), but if I HAVE to buy Apple's hardware, then at least offer me hardware I want to buy, even if I have to pay a little more!

Macs can run Windows too now and that means access to Windows games. Steve Jobs touted Electronic Arts' return to the Mac, so how about offering us a reasonable way to play those games, Mr. Jobs....
 
Asking for 80fps on those games is hardly hard core.

You realize that when you shell out 8 bucks to see a movie in the theater, you're watching a 24 fps image, right?

When you turn on a TV set and watch "Lost", you're getting 30 fps.

With one comment, you told me everything I need to know about how twisted and myopic your perspective is. NORMAL PEOPLE do not demand 80fps+ gaming.

More importantly, people who actually *need* systems like the Mac Pro generally don't give a crap about how well it plays games. They are too busy using it to make money and/or advance human knowledge. If they wanted to play games, they would have bought a Windows PC (or perhaps a DS Lite... or something.)

You, my friend, are a gamer. Accept it. Go build a kick-ass toy for yourself, and leave the rest of us alone. The Mac Pro is a fantastic professional workstation. The fact that you are unhappy that Apple does not make an affordable kick-ass game machine is not our problem, nor does it have anything to do with the discussion of emerging chip technologies for the Mac Pro. Buh-bye.
 
Excellent news. Will Apple use the 2.83GHz, 3.00GHz and 3.16GHz chips in the MacPro line?

I'm buying a MacPro in December, and a Quad 3Ghz sure would be nice. I know nothing about video cards, I just want to be able to run a 30" and 20" ACD (20" in portrait orientation) from the video card it comes with.
 
You realize that when you shell out 8 bucks to see a movie in the theater, you're watching a 24 fps image, right?

When you turn on a TV set and watch "Lost", you're getting 30 fps.

With one comment, you told me everything I need to know about how twisted and myopic your perspective is. NORMAL PEOPLE do not demand 80fps+ gaming.

More importantly, people who actually *need* systems like the Mac Pro generally don't give a crap about how well it plays games. They are too busy using it to make money and/or advance human knowledge. If they wanted to play games, they would have bought a Windows PC (or perhaps a DS Lite... or something.)

You, my friend, are a gamer. Accept it. Go build a kick-ass toy for yourself, and leave the rest of us alone. The Mac Pro is a fantastic professional workstation. The fact that you are unhappy that Apple does not make an affordable kick-ass game machine is not our problem, nor does it have anything to do with the discussion of emerging chip technologies for the Mac Pro. Buh-bye.

What you obviously don't realise is that the 80fps he's referring to is the average. Yes, you only need 24fps for smooth video, but your television doesn't start dropping frames when the action gets intense. If you're playing a game where the average framerate is 24fps, then any time where the game gets processor-intensive, (like, oh, say, in the middle of a battle?) the frame rate drops massively - so you'd end up with a stuttering 5-10fps. The result being that you would, naturally, die. You want it at 80fps so that when the game gets busy, it drops to somewhere around the 30-40 fps mark, so that you can still actually play it. "NORMAL PEOPLE" as you put it, do actually demand 80fps gaming, they just don't realise it. Rather, they'd phrase it as "I want a smooth gaming experience that doesn't start stuttering as soon as anything happens", which is what 80fps gaming means.

Perhaps you should do a little research next time, before getting so haughty.
 
I'm the one that should be sighing at the reply of yet another Apple apologist that doesn't get it at all.



Who said I was a hard core gamer? I am not. But like MOST PC users (or former PC users), I DO occasionally play a game on my computer and WHEN I do, I don't want it to run at 20fps, which is what the new iMacs are giving with certain new games at native LCD resolutions. Asking for 80fps on those games is hardly hard core. Hard core systems can do 120+ or more.

Now what I WANT to do is get rid of my old PC an *NOT* have to buy another one! I don't want to hear about gaming consoles either. There are some games that only really 'work' well on computers. I mean we're not talking about a gaming iMac, but perhaps an iMac (or better yet a low-end MacPro type setup or mini-tower) that has a REASONABLE graphics card that won't be totally obsolete in a year or two. This is especially important on iMacs because you can't replace the darn card. At least if I buy a MacPro, I can assume sooner or later a newer card will be offered for it so it won't be obsolete next year. But this newest set of iMacs are OBSOLETE ON ARRIVAL!!! They are actually SLOWER than the previous generation o iMac with the NVidia option! There is NO EXCUSE that any REASONABLE person would take or believe for that! I've been waiting for the refresh, expecting an iMac I could live with, but instead they go BACKWARDS!

The MacPro is the ONLY viable Mac to run games beyond 2007 period. The MBP does better than the top of the line iMac even! That's unbelievable to me.

But what I really get sick and tired of is people making EXCUSES for Apple's total and utter incompetence in this area. If you don't like playing games or only play games on a console, FINE. Ignore our pleas and comments. You might as well go buy a MacMini because unless you do 3D video, you don't NEED even what the iMac offers. Intel GMA is good enough forever! 2D rules the world in 2007!

But some of us do more than browse and play with Garage Band. I thought the move to Intel was a god-send. FINALLY, I could ditch the Windows platform for good because I could run parallels or boot camp for my legacy software while I slowly ween off Windows entirely (I *HATE* Vista for more than one reason). But that doesn't mean I want CRAP hardware!

I've heard this song and dance about how long Macs last (shelf life) and how great their hardware quality is, but the truth of the matter is the newest ones are ALREADY obsolete. What good does it do to have great so-and-so specs, but then have utter and total CRAP for the graphics? Graphics are more important than ANY other system on a computer, IMO. They're what you see every day and interact with (followed by sound, which is also often ignored and to get really good sound on a Mac you need a Firewire box because new Macs don't even have what most PCs have and that is 5.1 or better standard sound.)

It just seems to me for all the hoopla about Apple Hardware, the REALITY is beyond form factor, it's really a sad joke. Just because it's way better than the lowest/cheapest Dell out there doesn't mean it's 'great' in any sense of the word! I can put together a higher-end Dell (let alone building my own) for way less than the mid-road iMac that will run circles around it in almost all areas! You can't even pay more (dollar for dollar) to get a faster iMac because there is no such thing!

I realize Apple makes most of their money selling hardware so my dream of being able to buy MacOS X for any hardware I want isn't likely to happen any time soon, if ever (without hacking anyway), but if I HAVE to buy Apple's hardware, then at least offer me hardware I want to buy, even if I have to pay a little more!

Macs can run Windows too now and that means access to Windows games. Steve Jobs touted Electronic Arts' return to the Mac, so how about offering us a reasonable way to play those games, Mr. Jobs....

*sigh* + 1
 
Can drive 30" + 24" BOTH In Portrait Mode If You Want To Now

Excellent news. Will Apple use the 2.83GHz, 3.00GHz and 3.16GHz chips in the MacPro line?
Nobody outside Apple's inner circle would know that. We hope. The spread might be something less than 2.83 then 2.83 and 3.16 on top skipping 3.0 as that's the top now. Just guessing as usual.
I'm buying a MacPro in December, and a Quad 3Ghz sure would be nice. I know nothing about video cards, I just want to be able to run a 30" and 20" ACD (20" in portrait orientation) from the video card it comes with.
You can do that already with the base card that comes with it now - lowly nVidea GeForce 7300GT. I'm able to drive BOTH a 30" DELL as well as a 24" (1920 x 1200) DELL in Portrait mode and it is the bomb! :) :eek: :cool:

BTW: What's up with all these gamers invading this Pro space? Really pathetic having to wade through their dribble. Don't forget to wipe up after yourselves on your way out the door children. :rolleyes:
 
BTW: What's up with all these gamers invading this Pro space? Really pathetic having to wade through their dribble. Don't forget to wipe up after yourselves on your way out the door children. :rolleyes:

Oh FFS accept that some people have different requirements, and live with it. Wind your neck in. Do you want the platform to grow or not?
 
What you obviously don't realise is that the 80fps he's referring to is the average. Yes, you only need 24fps for smooth video, but your television doesn't start dropping frames when the action gets intense. If you're playing a game where the average framerate is 24fps, then any time where the game gets processor-intensive, (like, oh, say, in the middle of a battle?) the frame rate drops massively - so you'd end up with a stuttering 5-10fps. The result being that you would, naturally, die. You want it at 80fps so that when the game gets busy, it drops to somewhere around the 30-40 fps mark, so that you can still actually play it. "NORMAL PEOPLE" as you put it, do actually demand 80fps gaming, they just don't realise it. Rather, they'd phrase it as "I want a smooth gaming experience that doesn't start stuttering as soon as anything happens", which is what 80fps gaming means.

Perhaps you should do a little research next time, before getting so haughty.

Sounds like the gaming geeks like to quote big numbers to puff up their chests ... perhaps they should quote the sustatined frame rate on their hardware under load... like lots of readers here, I suspect that not everyone is aware of the ego-bloated frame rates you want to quote.. check the mirror for the 'haughty' person ... try some civility.. it works wonders....
 
dangnabbit. I guess apple knew this and so they're skipping the price cut in favour of keeping the 3.0 octo over-priced and waiting til penryn before offering octos across the line. That's a shame. No one wants to buy a year old computer when they know a few months' waiting will garner them twice as many render nodes for about the same money.

And, whilst Multimedia's wording may not be ideal, he has a point. If you have enough money to buy a mac pro for gaming then you're obviously not working in any of the industries that require workstation-class computers, otherwise you probably wouldn't have enough free time to game in the first place, let alone want to spend it looking at a screen less than a metre away from your face for a prolonged period of time.

It is a shame that part of the intel deal means having integrated graphics in low-end consumer macs (for how many years, though, i wonder...?). It is annoying that apple still put outdated graphics cards in imacs like the geforce 5200 in my g5 rev a., which necessitates me buying a pro. It is a further shame that jobsy won't just bring out a midi tower like the cube with expandable graphics and sound cards.

Oh well, those of us who need the power (though not all of it) for work will just have to content ourselves with saving up for longer and making sure we buy at the right time to maximise the longevity/resale value of our purchases (ie not now, but probably in november), and gamers will have to stick to consoles and PCs. But none of that has anything to do with Xeon's going 45nm first, and ahead of schedule, which is surely a good thing except that it's happening so soon that apple will probably wait til then for an update rather than hand on any of the woodcrest/clovertown savings onto us. Maybe that was part of the deal they made in getting the 3 GHz clovertown so early and they're still paying over the odds for the chips anyways?
 
So the top end speed increases by only 160MHz, but it's a real quad-core, has a larger cache and is 45nm, so uses less power and generates less heat ?

Intel Penryn quad core AKA Yorkfield is still dual die. Native does not mean it uses less power, just "more elegant", but yes, it uses less power and heat because high-k eliminates good amount of leakage.
 
Oh FFS accept that some people have different requirements, and live with it. Wind your neck in. Do you want the platform to grow or not?

I don't care if the platform grows or not, as long as it remains viable.

The Mac Pro is not a game machine. It's just not. A handful of (misguided) gamers are eye-balling it as the "best" Mac-based gaming choice because they are dissatisfied with the gaming performance of Apple's consumer-grade systems.

But the fact that a few loud-mouths are unhappy that Apple doesn't make a game machine (as in, modest CPU / bleeding-edge GPU / low price) doesn't mean that people in a forum discussing Penryn want to skim through post after post after post of them whining about it.

I'm very excited about it. I was looking at the possibility of picking up a new Pro tower in October, but now I'm wondering if I want to wait an extra month to get the new chips. I think I might try to squeeze another month out of what I've got.
 
Multimedia said:
What's up with all these gamers invading this Pro space? Really pathetic having to wade through their dribble. Don't forget to wipe up after yourselves on your way out the door children. :rolleyes:

Hey Multimedia... I know how you feel but you have to respect their wishes and desires as well. Just like the gamers are saying the Mac Zealots should mature and realize that Apple doesn't offer the best of the best when it comes to gaming rigs... they have to mature and realize that Apple marketshare has been growing for 7 years straight regardless of the fact, the iPhone and iPod are pushing PC switchers to the Mac, Mac software is still far superior to anything on the market sans specially made stuff, and Apple's laptops (even the GMA 950) have been keeping up with the sales of PCs and Apple is a tenth the size of any PC distributor. In other words... Jobs kinda knows what he is doing to keep Apple afloat even if we aren't too happy with his decisions. Screw waiting for a gaming rig. I long since gave up on that.

If I was looking for a machine to be just a gaming rig then I would get one of three computers: A 24" iMac and suck it up with the GPU, a bottom line Mac Pro and never have any complaints, or a PC at half the cost of a Mac Pro but suck it up with Windows, viruses, spyware, crashing, malware, stupid little nuances that will get on my nerves.

The iPhone was put on the Cingular network and it is under powered etc. etc. People stopped complaining about it when they knew it may not change. Gamers need to understand that their mini-tower has been talked to death for 5 years (or since the Cube) and it isn't here yet. We hear you very clear... we just don't care anymore, you find a way around it.

And this graphics card thing is over rated. Graphics junkies respect the card more than any other piece of hardware in the machine. Even if they have the best it isn't good enough for their games. They will never be satisfied.
 
Wrong. Intel dropped the price on Quad-core Clovertowns, they are now about the same price as Dual-core Woodcrests. So no. Apple does not use the faster processors from Intel.
...because they are not necessarily faster processors...

Tiger isn't well prepared for eight core systems and eight core system (2 socket with quad core processors, 2x4) run at lower clock rates (top end part to top end part). It wouldn't serve Apple's customer base to eliminate the quad core (2 socket with dual core processors, 2x2) option since the quad core systems can have higher clock-rates and don't degrade in efficiency as much as an eight core system does under Tiger (or with existing chipset).

Anyway Leopard, the next generation workstation chip-set, and Penryn based Xeon will allow 2x4 systems to run more efficiently (underload and power), among other related performance items.

I wouldn't expect Apple to rev. the Mac Pro until those things come together (the may not wait for Leopard). Apple may however provide more BTO processor options with the existing product (given recent Intel price drops).

Also, the graphics cards are very outdated. The HD and RAM spec could be bumped as they have both fallen in price.
Those are BTO options, they can be changed (and some have changed) without what most folks mean when they say product "update" or "revision". The video adapters are waiting on Leopard and Leopard's delay has likely delayed some BTO plans that Apple had.
 
they have to mature and realize that Apple marketshare has been growing for 7 years straight regardless of the fact,

It has been growing in spite of the fact that they ignore one of the largest computer markets. Just think how well Apple would be doing if they actually catered slightly to gamers.

Apple could be appealing to Pros, mass consumers, Gamers, and Business. Right now Apple really only focuses on Mass Consumers with a slight nod to the legacy pro customers. Apple almost completely igonores Gamers, and corporate businesses.

Multimedia, You have to be a little tolerent. The Mac Pro is really the only Apple choice for a true gamer. So whenever a rumor on the Mac Pro appears, of course Gamers are going to chime-in. If Apple actually made a mini-tower machine geared towards the high-end consumer & gamer, then the Mac Pro would be specifically for Pro-users.
 
Multimedia

Do you have an answer for the person who asked about blue-ray drives? I am interested if you have any input for upgrade/add-on options for MacPros. I realize its a bit off-topic, but since the question had been posed in this thread, I thought there might be others here awaiting an answer.

On topic: If Apple is waiting new chipsets/motherboards, as well as the new Penryn chips for a new refresh (MWSF 08?), is there no incremental chip upgrades they could do in the meantime? Could they go all clovertown and keep the same clockspeeds? And I think upping the RAM should happen now, too, given that the mini now comes with a gig standard, and the MBPs with 2 gigs.

I think that since it's already been over a year, Apple needs to do some sort of upgrade, even if just to the current specks. I don't think they can go a year and a half without updating ANYTHING. I feel they also shouldn't save it all up for some big new upgrade. It seems there customers would be better served and late-buying investments would be not as bad a deal if they allowed incremental updates and maybe new GPUs between product cycles.
 
...because they are not necessarily faster processors...

Tiger isn't well prepared for eight core systems and eight core system (2 socket with quad core processors, 2x4) run at lower clock rates (top end part to top end part). It wouldn't serve Apple's customer base to eliminate the quad core (2 socket with dual core processors, 2x2) option since the quad core systems can have higher clock-rates and don't degrade in efficiency as much as an eight core system does under Tiger (or with existing chipset).

Anyway Leopard, the next generation workstation chip-set, and Penryn based Xeon will allow 2x4 systems to run more efficiently (underload and power), among other related performance items.

I wouldn't expect Apple to rev. the Mac Pro until those things come together (the may not wait for Leopard). Apple may however provide more BTO processor options with the existing product (given recent Intel price drops).

Those are BTO options, they can be changed (and some have changed) without what most folks mean when they say product "update" or "revision". The video adapters are waiting on Leopard and Leopard's delay has likely delayed some BTO plans that Apple had.

They are quad-core processors, why wouldn't they be "faster". Apple could, right now, use dual 2.66Ghz Clovertowns in the base Mac Pro. Giving them an eight-core machine at the base model. Pricing allows for it.

The Cloveretowns do not run at a slower clock. In fact they match up pefrectly since Clovertowns are essentially two Woodcrest/Conroe dual cores slapped together. The X5355 runs at the same clock as the 5150 and they are just about the same price. So an all eight-core system line would serve the customer base. The numbers won't change simply the number of cores. Which we love. Then Harpertown will be quad-core, have faster clocks, faster per clock, etc. Please research before spewing incorrect thoughts.

You sayTiger isn't well prepared for eight-core, yet they are selling an eight-core system. I am guessing you think that is a waste right? Tiger may not be as effective as Leopard will be. But I highly doubt Apple would give people and eight-core option if it couldn't perform. There is no loss in efficiency.

Take a look:
http://barefeats.com/octopro5.html
http://barefeats.com/octopro1.html
http://barefeats.com/octopro3.html
http://barefeats.com/octopro4.html

Now, some tests don't show an increase. However, if that stuff will only be better in Leopard so be it. But don't say there is no increase. Because there indeed is.

And yes, those are BTO options. However, offering 1GB in a workstation at this point is ridiculous. A higher base RAM spec is good for everybody. If you were going to add 2x2GB (like myself) you would now be at 6GB instead of 5GB if they took to 2GB in the base.

BTO options have not changed. They added the expensive Clovertown and a RAID card. Nothing else has changed.
 
Apple could be appealing to Pros, mass consumers, Gamers, and Business. Right now Apple really only focuses on Mass Consumers with a slight nod to the legacy pro customers. Apple almost completely igonores Gamers, and corporate businesses.
The point of business is to legally provide the best value to shareholders and not to maximize revenue or market share.

Apple's smart to ignore most gamers and the corporate desktop business. I've seen the margins on corporate desktops/laptops and Apple wants no part of that business. If you don't believe me, look at the margins reported by Dell, HP and Lenovo. For some time (possibly it's still true), HP actually lost money on their corporate desktop/laptops. From what I've read, it's the same reason why IBM dumped their stuff onto Lenovo: there wasn't enough profit to justify them remaining in that business.

The only companies making money on gamers are Intel, nVidia, AMD and the software houses. Neither business would bring Apple enough profit to make it worth the effort.
 
Blue-ray Or HD-DVD Is Anybody's Guess When. Minimum RAM Should Be Two 2GB Sticks

I have no idea when Blu-ray or HD-DVD will be added as an option or standard. Sooner would be better. But you know Apple - sometimes bleeding edge, other times bleeding laggards. :eek: :rolleyes: ;)

Given how cheap MP RAM is now and how they put 2GB standard in the MBPs, I think they should put two 2GB sticks in there to get you started with 4GB no matter which model. :)
 
Sounds like the gaming geeks like to quote big numbers to puff up their chests ... perhaps they should quote the sustatined frame rate on their hardware under load... like lots of readers here, I suspect that not everyone is aware of the ego-bloated frame rates you want to quote.. check the mirror for the 'haughty' person ... try some civility.. it works wonders....

Not to dampen your towel too much, but most users of the Mac Pro should know a fair amount about frame rates - especially if they are video editors. Processing video effects in real time such as in Final Cut Studio 2 would require more GPU power; not to mention that processing HD video require a fair amount of power as well. I believe editors would also want to be on the same page as the gamers for the power of the video cards that are shipped with the unit. However, the main complaint is about the iMac's video card and why they have skimped on the card - which was done for heat dispersement reasons. But in terms of getting a Pro the base line should run a game at smoothly enough, but at a higher cost. It is a shame that Apple has not considered much for gamers, but I feel in due time Apple will make the attempt to lure gamers into their realm - which should be when games can play natively in OS X, or whatever future Apple OS lays ahead.
 
You sayTiger isn't well prepared for eight-core, yet they are selling an eight-core system. I am guessing you think that is a waste right? Tiger may not be as effective as Leopard will be. But I highly doubt Apple would give people and eight-core option if it couldn't perform. There is no loss in efficiency.
I agree with you totally.

Also, what's wrong with buying with the future in mind?

Another point that I think people are completely losing sight of is the FACT that generally people who buy an expensive tower and spend a lot of money boosting Memory and upgrading the Video Card are planning on keeping it for more than a number of years. While it's perhaps true that in most cases today, these additional cores are not being utilized, it's good to know that Leopard will allow more for this and that the additional power can and will be utilized in the not-so-distant future. Considering how short of time it took for most everyone in the industry to come up with Universal Binaries for their software, it's obvious that they'll be modifying their code (and right soon) to handle the new power that Apple is unleashing with these super systems.

I love it here at macrumors.com -- on one hand, there is the Camp that shouts that the newly released iMac is shipping obsolete and on the other, there's the Camp who says that, basically the Mac Pros are "too powerful" because there's not enough software to take advantage of it. It would be fun to see if any of those people are in both camps. :rolleyes:

I'm buying a MacPro in December, and a Quad 3Ghz sure would be nice. I know nothing about video cards, I just want to be able to run a 30" and 20" ACD (20" in portrait orientation) from the video card it comes with.
In my opinion, I wouldn't have December set in stone as the Buy month. While not always the case at all, January's MacWorld event could bring a new round of updates and possibly a whole new enclosure. It certainly might be worth the wait.

If you're doing it for tax reasons, ask your accountant about ways of showing debt in '07 so that you can take advantage of the purchase in April. Possibly buying a very large Apple gift card in December or taking a business load out in December.

Not sure although I'm going to be researching the situation for a big purchase in January myself. My Dual 1Ghz PwerMac G4 bought in January of 2002 is still plugging along, making my living for me, but the idea of a top tier Mac Pro with maxed ram and a couple of 30"s is going to be reality very soon.

I imagine that if my G4 could take care of me for 6 years, the new system should be able to go 8 or more. So much more power. Can't wait. :D
 
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