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This is really the crux of your argument. You feel cheated and mislead, not that you actually were. The feeling is there. As I previously posted, initially I felt the same but I went back and re-read the Apple sites (US, UK, German) and realized that while it unfavorable but I would rather have the faster practical speeds that DC-HSPA+ offers over LTE...

Absolutely that's the crux of the argument. And any repercussions boil down to a subtle but crucial difference between UK & US Advertising Law.

In the US, the Business that is advertising is somewhat protected legally in that the onus is on the individual to read any small print that might caveat the claims being made.

In the UK, you can include all the caveats, small print & supplemental information you want, but if there is any ambiguity in a statement or the slightest chance that somebody might read one thing and make a reasonable assumption that they later find is incorrect, then the Business is at fault.

It can get petty, I'll grant you. I remember Motorola's website/TV Commercials calling a Device "Virtually Indestructible" and something like "Dance-floor Proof, Splash Proof, Life Proof". Three people complained that their phone broke after they dropped it and although Motorola submitted a document detailing more than 300 tests the device had gone through as evidence that it was "Very Strongly Built", this wasn't enough for the ASA to forgive the choice of wording and hundreds of people were able to claim refunds on perfectly functional devices on the grounds that it was "mis-sold".

I'd wager that the claims of 4G are more ambiguous than Motorola's claims of indestructibility, which is why I can assert with a fair degree of confidence that the outcome of the investigation into Apple will result in them being forced to remove reference to "4G" in the UK. I'd imagine other European Countries/Australia etc. won't be too far behind.

Maybe we're all a bunch of pedants over here...but maybe we just expect a greater degree of clarity/honesty in the way information is presented to us. Perhaps I'm conditioned to ignore the small-print somewhat and take the main description at face-value. Perhaps I'm naive.

I actually enjoy US Advertising whenever I'm there, particularly when smaller businesses advertise on Local Networks. It's much more sensationalist and adversarial than I'm used to in Europe. I remember a small Fried Chicken Company running an Ad in California claiming that KFC contained Beef products (complete with Frankenstein-Cow Chickens etc.) and a local Car Sales Business claiming his main competitor was effectively a swindling liar.

Very entertaining, but it simply wouldn't get past the authorities in Europe. It's cultural probably. Most US States have loose restrictions on firearms ownership...but then really strict censorship laws governing things like nudity. In Germany, it's almost impossible to buy a firearm without proving you belong to a Rifle Club or similar, but perfectly acceptable to smoke, drink from a young age and pay for sex.
 
Apple has changed the text on the Swedish website. Does not mention 4G or LTE anymore.
http://www.apple.com/se/ipad/#wireless

Problem solved ;)

Try looking up the definition for "ultra-fast wireless" and check back with MR ;)

Or did they promote swedish 4G providers before?

Yup, this is exactly what they did. They listed Telia, 3 and two other providers I think it was. Sorry don't have a source for that other than I saw it a couple of days ago.
 
Yup, this is exactly what they did. They listed Telia, 3 and two other providers I think it was. Sorry don't have a source for that other than I saw it a couple of days ago.
Wow, I did not know that. They actually said 4G service was available in Sweden with Telia, 3 and your other two providers that offer 4G service? That would have been indeed wrong. If that only changed today, there must be screenshots of that, surely?
 
Try looking up the definition for "ultra-fast wireless" and check back with MR ;)

The carriers listed only seem to offer 6 Mbit/s for the new iPad,
while the Samsung Tablet comes with 40 MBit/s. Not exactly "ultra-fast". :(
 
Drill down? What are you talking about? It is right there on the site, listed on the tech specs page. They didn't hide anything or make it difficult to find. For your edification

Turns out, Apple have already changed their site since this discussion started.

This post of mine from last Friday: https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/14472700/

...was cut & paste from the Apple UK website as it was then, at which point there was nothing to suggest that the 4G feature was US only. If you follow the link now you'll see that the wording has changed somewhat. In particular, the footnote has changed from:

* 4G coverage is not available in all areas and varies by carrier.

(Which is equally true of 3G, 240 Volt electricity and typhoid) to:

* 4G LTE is supported only on AT&T and Verizon networks in the US, and on Bell, Rogers and Telus networks in Canada. Data plans sold separately. See your carrier for details.

...also, I can't be certain, but I looked at the "tech specs" page then and I really don't remember seeing the list of frequencies that are there now. Pro tip: never rant about a web page without taking a snapshot of it!

However, the point that lots of people in the US seem to be in denial over is that EU advertising law is more strict that in the US. While I'm not going to bet on the result the way some other posters have done, the investigation will put a lot more weight on what a nontechnical customer (who may have heard that 4G was coming) would understand from "iPad with WiFi and 4G" than on the footnotes in the tech specs.

For example, here's some light reading from a few years back, when Apple got told off for claiming that the iPhone let you access "all of the web":

http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Adjudications/2008/8/Apple-(UK)-Ltd/TF_ADJ_44891.aspx

Note that this is *not* the same as getting hit by a class-action lawsuit in which some ambulance-chasing lawyer gets rich and the customers get a 1$ voucher: its Apple getting told by an industry regulatory body to fix their advert.
 
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Thanks for your clarification - then no map, of any cellular infrastructure is correct. As you correctly pointed out, LTE is not fully deployed in Finland, nor IN ANY COUNTRY. In fact, wait for it, GSM is not fully deployed. The map was NOT a representation of the coverage. The map was a representation of the 'COUNTRIES THAT HAVE ADOPTED LTE' - That's it.

It is not a coverage map, get it?

Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3GPP_Long_Term_Evolution

You should have thought of that before you posted the map....

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Try looking up the definition for "ultra-fast wireless" and check back with MR ;)



Yup, this is exactly what they did. They listed Telia, 3 and two other providers I think it was. Sorry don't have a source for that other than I saw it a couple of days ago.

Wait !!!!!!!!!!!! You are saying that the Swedish site listed Telia 3 and two other providers as supporting the new iPad?
 
Turns out, Apple have already changed their site since this discussion started.

This post of mine from last Friday: https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/14472700/

...was cut & paste from the Apple UK website as it was then, at which point there was nothing to suggest that the 4G feature was US only. If you follow the link now you'll see that the wording has changed somewhat. In particular, the footnote has changed from:

However, the point that lots of people in the US seem to be in denial over is that EU advertising law is more strict that in the US. While I'm not going to bet on the result the way some other posters have done, the investigation will put a lot more weight on what a nontechnical customer (who may have heard that 4G was coming) would understand from "iPad with WiFi and 4G" than on the footnotes in the tech specs.

My guess is that one of their lawyers told them to change the site just for that reason. Fair enough. It still seems kind of silly since the type of consumer who knows what a 4G LTE network is also is more likely to read the technical specifications.

However, what irks a lot of people here are the comments about how the new iPad is "useless" without LTE or how Apple is "cheating Europe" by not having the EU LTE bands available. The fact of the matter is that all we're getting in the US is effective parity, since our LTE networks operate at about the same speeds as the 3G networks supported by the iPad in Europe. Plus, it isn't as if buyers in Europe won't get fast, reliable access.
 
Wow, I did not know that. They actually said 4G service was available in Sweden with Telia, 3 and your other two providers that offer 4G service? That would have been indeed wrong. If that only changed today, there must be screenshots of that, surely?

Survey says: NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I saw the Loch Ness Monster eating a chilli-dog with Batman and Bigfoot. Don't have a photo though...

----------

Turns out, Apple have already changed their site since this discussion started.

This post of mine from last Friday: https://forums.macrumors.com/posts/14472700/

...was cut & paste from the Apple UK website as it was then, at which point there was nothing to suggest that the 4G feature was US only. If you follow the link now you'll see that the wording has changed somewhat. In particular, the footnote has changed from:

* 4G coverage is not available in all areas and varies by carrier.

(Which is equally true of 3G, 240 Volt electricity and typhoid) to:

* 4G LTE is supported only on AT&T and Verizon networks in the US, and on Bell, Rogers and Telus networks in Canada. Data plans sold separately. See your carrier for details.

...also, I can't be certain, but I looked at the "tech specs" page then and I really don't remember seeing the list of frequencies that are there now. Pro tip: never rant about a web page without taking a snapshot of it!

However, the point that lots of people in the US seem to be in denial over is that EU advertising law is more strict that in the US. While I'm not going to bet on the result the way some other posters have done, the investigation will put a lot more weight on what a nontechnical customer (who may have heard that 4G was coming) would understand from "iPad with WiFi and 4G" than on the footnotes in the tech specs.

For example, here's some light reading from a few years back, when Apple got told off for claiming that the iPhone let you access "all of the web":

http://www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Adjudications/2008/8/Apple-(UK)-Ltd/TF_ADJ_44891.aspx

Note that this is *not* the same as getting hit by a class-action lawsuit in which some ambulance-chasing lawyer gets rich and the customers get a 1$ voucher: its Apple getting told by an industry regulatory body to fix their advert.

The first thing I did and am as guilty for not taking a screen shot was to check the specs. They did list the frequency which is why I was initially disappointed as I stated earlier. I also said, and stand by this that Apple is guilty of semantics manipulation. They never promised anything to everyone regarding LTE, but they also never said that some people wouldn't get it.
 
However, what irks a lot of people here are the comments about how the new iPad is "useless" without LTE or how Apple is "cheating Europe" by not having the EU LTE bands available.

Yes, that is silly. The point that current EU 3G is as good as current US 4G has been well made.

However, when it rolls out here (possibly starting later this year), 4G is presumably going to offer some selling point over the existing 3G services (or its going to be more of a drop-out than a roll-out) - better coverage, faster rates or better tariffs. If nothing else, I don't see the carriers spending too much on extending fast 3G coverage once they start on 4G. So what's not silly is to see an (otherwise fully localised) product sold as "4G" and thinking "That's a useful bit of future-proofing".

It would have certainly had a slight influence on whether I went for the 4G model or stuck with WiFi only: I'd expect 3-4 years out of my next iPad.

In other news, the Express card slot and user-replaceable hard drive were a factor in my getting a 17" MBP - I may never take advantage of those features, but I expect them to be there if I need them.
 
Once again telecommunication spectrum worldwide has made things messy. UMTS was starting to become universal with the iPhone being "penta-band" too :eek: LTE sounds great but Apple undoboubtly jumped the gun WAYY earlier than I would have expected from how long they decided to wait for 3G, not sure if thats going to be good or bad. I think Verizon needed it bad though, I mean CDMA2000 is just slow as ever...I have got to have the worst data rates ever with my iPhone 4 haha. They better make no less than a perfect LTE iPhone though, you can make mistakes with iPads but not people's phones...that iPhone is going to be packed with radios though :O :eek:


Spectrum isn't strictly-speaking an english word, so it uses latin plurals. Spectra is the plural of Spectrum.
Damn...gonna look forward to using my new vocab word in a sentence :D Learn something new everyday! :D :D
People here talk about NO 4G in Europe

What a load of crap... Since 2010 we have had it in small scale in Denmark and Sweden and today on full coverage...

Get your facts before writing here ok
Was just going to mention that...
 
Yes, that is silly. The point that current EU 3G is as good as current US 4G has been well made.

However, when it rolls out here (possibly starting later this year), 4G is presumably going to offer some selling point over the existing 3G services

Not necessarily, at least not at first. LTE is attractive to capacity-constrained US carriers because it is more spectrum-efficient than UMTS. However, in Europe, you don't have quite the same level of capacity constraints, so at first there likely will be little to differentiate LTE. Eventually, LTE will be able to scale up, but that isn't likely in the 3-4 year lifetime of a typical iPad.

(Incidentally, CDMA2000 is also more efficient than UMTS, which partly explains why Verizon's network is more reliable than AT&T's).

----------

Once again telecommunication spectrum worldwide has made things messy. UMTS was starting to become universal with the iPhone being "penta-band" too :eek: LTE sounds great but Apple undoboubtly jumped the gun WAYY earlier than I would have expected from how long they decided to wait for 3G, not sure if thats going to be good or bad. I think Verizon needed it bad though, I mean CDMA2000 is just slow as ever...

Apple is adopting LTE early by their standards. AT&T wants customers off its capacity-constrained 3G network as soon as possible, and Verizon wants the faster download speeds that its EVDO network just can't provide. However, the technology is still evolving, which is why we didn't see it in the iPhone 4S. Apple likely didn't like the tradeoffs necessary, but felt the iPad could handle them more easily until more power-efficient and flexible chipsets and antennas are available.
 
I think it's a matter of both. AnandTech pointed out that iPad isn't using the MDM9615, but rather than MDM9600 series. Also, antenna support is needed. LTE has brought a common standard, but unfortunately, a plethora of frequencies.

Ah, that clarifies it a bit (on the chipset end).The antenna issue isn't going to go away too fast; HSPA's been deployed for quite a while, and yet dual-band International and tri-band North American HSPA phones are still the norm. I honestly don't think we'll see a global LTE device anytime soon; we can't even get a single LTE device that works on all North American carriers yet.


(Incidentally, CDMA2000 is also more efficient than UMTS, which partly explains why Verizon's network is more reliable than AT&T's).

The primary reason Verizon's EV-DO network is more reliable than AT&T's UMTS network boils down to the age of the networks; Verizon's EV-DO network is expanded upon their cdma2000 network which is expanded upon their IS-95 network and therefore has had countless years of operation and significantly less complication while AT&T's UMTS network exists alongside their GSM network and was deployed in 2005. Verizon's starting to see complications of their own with their LTE network since, for the first time, Verizon's dealing with a new technology that isn't backwards-compatible with what they already have.
 
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Survey says: NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I saw the Loch Ness Monster eating a chilli-dog with Batman and Bigfoot. Don't have a photo though...

----------



The first thing I did and am as guilty for not taking a screen shot was to check the specs. They did list the frequency which is why I was initially disappointed as I stated earlier. I also said, and stand by this that Apple is guilty of semantics manipulation. They never promised anything to everyone regarding LTE, but they also never said that some people wouldn't get it.

It seems that the Symbols have changed on the Australian site no more rounded rectangle 4G logo on top of the wireless section replaced by antenna logo Australian and 4G LTE logo on US.
 
Surely Apples' word is good enough isn't it?

http://translate.google.se/translat...g.se/2.1038/1.437042/apple-ingen-4g-i-sverige

*Google translates iPad as iPhone for some reason, here's the original article http://macworld.idg.se/2.1038/1.437042/apple-ingen-4g-i-sverige

Ok, that was quite a monumental mistake then.
But, at least Apple excused themselfs and since you can not buy it in Sweden yet, no harm done.
The now correct website will take orders from next week, right? So punters will know now that the swedish version of 4G is not going to work.
I am sure there are other tablets available if one lives and stays in Sweden and depends on 4G speed on a tablet.
 
4G symbol has been changed to a symbol Next-Generation Wireless in Belgium

They have done this in many of their large markets over the past few days. My guess is that their internal attorneys suggested it.
 
The ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) in Australia is allegedly taking Apple to court for selling the iPad 3 as a '4G' device even though it doesn't work on Australia's 4G networks.

"“The ACCC alleges that Apple's recent promotion of the new "iPad with WiFi + 4G" is misleading because it represents to Australian consumers that the product "iPad with WiFi + 4G" can, with a SIM card, connect to a 4G mobile data network in Australia, when this is not the case.
The competition regulator said it was seeking injunctions, penalties, corrective advertising and refunds to consumers who were misled.
Advertisement: Story continues below
“Consumers who have purchased or are considering purchasing a “iPad with Wifi + 4G” should ensure that they have a proper understanding of the mobile data networks which this iPad can directly access by a SIM card,’’ the ACCC warned.
The application will be lodged in the Federal Court in Melbourne tomorrow morning. A court date has not yet been set.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/tablets/watchdog-bites-apple-for-selling-ipad-as-4g-20120327-1vw8h.html#ixzz1qIjCuxNL"

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/...le-for-selling-ipad-as-4g-20120327-1vw8h.html

The ACCC media release: http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1042020/fromItemId/142
 
The ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) in Australia is allegedly taking Apple to court for selling the iPad 3 as a '4G' device even though it doesn't work on Australia's 4G networks.

"“The ACCC alleges that Apple's recent promotion of the new "iPad with WiFi + 4G" is misleading because it represents to Australian consumers that the product "iPad with WiFi + 4G" can, with a SIM card, connect to a 4G mobile data network in Australia, when this is not the case.
The competition regulator said it was seeking injunctions, penalties, corrective advertising and refunds to consumers who were misled.
Advertisement: Story continues below
“Consumers who have purchased or are considering purchasing a “iPad with Wifi + 4G” should ensure that they have a proper understanding of the mobile data networks which this iPad can directly access by a SIM card,’’ the ACCC warned.
The application will be lodged in the Federal Court in Melbourne tomorrow morning. A court date has not yet been set.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/tablets/watchdog-bites-apple-for-selling-ipad-as-4g-20120327-1vw8h.html#ixzz1qIjCuxNL"

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/...le-for-selling-ipad-as-4g-20120327-1vw8h.html

The ACCC media release: http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1042020/fromItemId/142

The ITU defines HSPA+ as "4G", and the new iPad supports HSPA+ in Australia. It would be different if Apple was advertising this as "LTE" in Australia, but they aren't.

I'd suggest the ACCC should take this up with the ITU instead.
 
The ITU defines HSPA+ as "4G", and the new iPad supports HSPA+ in Australia. It would be different if Apple was advertising this as "LTE" in Australia, but they aren't.

I'd suggest the ACCC should take this up with the ITU instead.

HSPA+ is NOT considered as 4G in Australia. ACCC & Apple both know this hence why Apple have now come out just today and offered anyone in Australia to return their iPad 3 for a full refund if they feel they have been misled, no matter what is wrong with the iPad. I would say very few will return them. 9to5 Mac have an interesting video of tests that were conducted around the world. US, Aus, UK, Asia & somewhere else I forget. SpeedTest.com showed US as about 24Mbps(4G) and Aus as 18Mbps(3G) (FWIW I get 22Mbps near my work in Aus) BUT real world test i.e. downloading the same Youtube clip in each spot over the world, Australia turned out faster on DC-HSDPA than US did on 4G. THIS is why I don't believe many will return their devices. My iPhone 4S gets a Max of 8Mbps near work and my iPad 3 gets 22Mbps. I'm pretty happy with it.

FWIW - DC-HSDPA & HSPA+ in Australia are colloquially known as 3.5G not 4G
 
French fine print

La connectivité 4G LTE est uniquement prise en charge sur les réseaux AT&T et Verizon aux États-Unis et sur les réseaux Bell, Rogers et Telus au Canada.

If you need translation, that means that 4G LTE is only available on the ATT network in the US and the Bell, Rogers and Telus networks in Canada.

The wording in the actual iPad description is that you can access the fastest AVAILABLE networks IN THE WORLD. This implies that first, 4G has to be available, and that to roam on 4G it will not necessarily in France... or Europe... or the world if you exclude the US and Canada :)
 
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