iPad 3 upscaled apps look poor?

[lianlua]

The fact that the pixel pitch is so much smaller on a retina display, really makes the jaggies MUCH more apparent. Some people just don't get it, and that's fine. I know you're right, and so do you.

There's no question that the pixel pitch is a massive leap forward in the retina display, and all around you get brighter, cleaner images. In both cases, however, the lines on the artwork are drawn exactly the same, and all elements are exactly the same size with the same presence of "jaggies".

You are stating a subjective preference for the dimmer, fuzzier results of a large-pitch display. That's fine, but that's not an objective value of "better" and it's certainly not the result of retina displays doing anything worse.

 

[slicecom]

As a graphic designer, and someone who actually has a clue as to how images work (as seemingly a few here clearly do not), I can tell you that even wallpaper sized for the non-retina iPad displays should look fine, if not razor sharp, on the new iPad unless the images were pretty low quality to begin with. Merely doubling the size of a good quality image won't affect the visual quality that much unless you're practically pressing your nose against the screen. I expect the same to be true for most apps. Things designed for the Retina Display will of course look better, but that in no way means that the older apps will suddenly look horrible.

As a graphic designer, and one who understands not only how images work, but also how displays work, I can tell you that you're failing to take pixel pitch into account. Do some reading on pixel pitch, you might learn something.

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There's no question that the pixel pitch is a massive leap forward in the retina display, and all around you get brighter, cleaner images. The lines on the artwork are drawn exactly the same, and all elements are exactly the same size with the same presence of "jaggies".

You are stating a subjective preference for the dimmer, fuzzier results of a large-pitch display. That's fine, but that's not an objective value of "better".

Fair enough, but you DO admit that the same image on an iPad 2 will appear MORE jaggy on the new iPad then. That's all I'm saying. Doesn't matter if its technically superior, the jaggies will be much more apparent on a retina display and to me and at least some others, that looks worse.

 

[samac92]

That is a far cry from "the retina display will make current apps worse on the new iPad", which is not at all what he is saying.

"the retina display makes the lower resolution more obvious" isn't a far cry from "the retina display will make current apps worse on the new iPad."

in my opinion, making the lower resolution more obvious makes the apps worse, not better or the same.

Anyway this is tedious, apps will be updated soon and we'll all be happy.

samac, you're the only one here who has a clue what you're talking about. Its quite clear that a non-retina icon looks better on the non-retina display than it does on a retina display. This was immediately obvious to me when I upgraded from my iPhone 3G to iPhone 4.

The fact that the pixel pitch is so much smaller on a retina display, really makes the jaggies MUCH more apparent. Some people just don't get it, and that's fine. I know you're right, and so do you.

cheers

 

[lianlua]

Fair enough, but you DO admit that the same image on an iPad 2 will appear MORE jaggy on the new iPad then.

The image has the same resolution and the same jagged edges in the same places. I can see all the jagged steps clearly on the original iPhone, and I can see them on the iPhone 4 as well.

I will happily admit that it is more likely that more people will notice this fact on the display with better colors, cleaner edges, and narrow pitch. But it is not more or less jagged. It's exactly as jagged in both cases.

That's all I'm saying. Doesn't matter if its technically superior, the jaggies will be much more apparent on a retina display and to me and at least some others, that looks worse.

And that's fine. To an equal number of people, the fuzzier edges and intrusive screen door effect looks worse and provides no benefit.

The fundamental issue was that people were claiming that the pixel doubling resulted in "image degradation" or that it was rendered without absolute fidelity, or that it was "blurrier", none of which is the issue. As you'll note, I put the screen door effect into the conversation in the first place.

 

[Tinmania]

"the retina display makes the lower resolution more obvious" isn't a far cry from "the retina display will make current apps worse on the new iPad."

in my opinion, making the lower resolution more obvious makes the apps worse, not better or the same.

Well that is simply your opinion and does not mean the apps are truly "poor" (the wording used in the title of this thread).

The lower res display is simply masking the true image as it appears blurrier to your eyes. I prefer to see the proper image represented on the screen. When I am able to see some jaggies I don't think, "OMG this is worse." I think "now that is a sharp display that can show something that my older device could not."




Michael

 

[slicecom]

The image has the same resolution and the same jagged edges in the same places. I can see all the jagged steps clearly on the original iPhone, and I can see them on the iPhone 4 as well.

I will happily admit that it is more likely that more people will notice this fact on the display with better colors, cleaner edges, and narrow pitch. But it is not more or less jagged. It's exactly as jagged in both cases.

And that's fine. To an equal number of people, the fuzzier edges and intrusive screen door effect looks worse and provides no benefit.

The fundamental issue was that people were claiming that the pixel doubling resulted in "image degradation" or that it was rendered without absolute fidelity, or that it was "blurrier", none of which is the issue. As you'll note, I put the screen door effect into the conversation in the first place.

True enough, comes down to personal preference I suppose.

There's no contest for me personally, I greatly prefer the look of a 57x57 pixel icon at a 1:1 ratio on the iPhone/iPhone 3G/iPhone 3GS's screen, to that same 57x57 pixel icon at 4:1 ratio on an iPhone 4/iPhone 4S's screen.

 

[TheWheelMan]

As a graphic designer, and one who understands not only how images work, but also how displays work, I can tell you that you're failing to take pixel pitch into account. Do some reading on pixel pitch, you might learn something.

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Fair enough, but you DO admit that the same image on an iPad 2 will appear MORE jaggy on the new iPad then. That's all I'm saying. Doesn't matter if its technically superior, the jaggies will be much more apparent on a retina display and to me and at least some others, that looks worse.

You're right. Pixel pitch does matter. However, I still maintain that it won't be a foregone conclusion that all older iPad apps will suddenly look bad on the new display. Since you're a graphic designer, you know as well as I do that pixel pitch (or in print, dot pitch) is only part of the equation. The quality of the image, of the display, the type of image, all play into the final visual quality. I don't know how an iPad apps interface is coded, whether they are hard wired to the resolution of the older iPads, or designed to upscale fonts dependent upon the resolution of the screen, but images in particular will provide different results. Some will look good, some will look acceptable, and some will look bad. But it's not going to be an across the board thing. Results will vary.

 

[samac92]

Well that is simply your opinion and does not mean the apps are truly "poor" (the wording used in the title of this thread).

It is indeed my opinion. The reason I joined in this thread is that almost all of the replies stated that the apps will not look any different whatsoever. They stated the apps will look exactly the same and will indistinguishable from one another, which is not the case.

I guess we have it all cleared up then.

 

[Casiotone]

Which one looks better?

A) Super Mario Bros. on a good old CRT TV?
B) Super Mario Bros. running in an emulator with non-smoothed pixel doubling?
C) Super Mario Bros. running on an HDTV with some smoothed upscaling?

Ask people and you'll get a variety of answers.

While this is an exaggerated metaphor, I think it's similar in some ways to the situation we have here and the "debates" it created.

Even in cases where the assets are exactly pixel doubled with no smoothing, these images will look different on the retina display.

Because of the slightest imperfections and the "roundness" of the non-retina pixels, as well as the spacing between them, the jaggies may look less pronounced on a non-retina display.

A cluster of 4 retina pixels will look "squarer" than a single pixel on a non-retina display.

And while some may argue that having squarer pixels is a good thing because it's closer to what it should look like, some others feel that it looks better with the "natural" anti-aliasing of the low-res displays, and the fact that pixels are exactly pixel doubled is irrelevant to the difference they see.

And to complicate things furthermore, some opengl based games make look a little poorer in other ways on a retina display because of texture smoothing.

 

[slicecom]

which one looks better?

A) super mario bros. On a good old crt tv?
B) super mario bros. Running in an emulator with non-smoothed pixel doubling?
C) super mario bros. Running on an hdtv with some smoothed upscaling?
Little poorer in other ways on a retina display because of texture smoothing.

a.

 

[Lukeyy19]

OK maybe my last image wasn't clear enough.

how about this:


This is what a zoomed in image of a W looks like on an iPad 1 or 2, or an iPhone, 3G, or 3GS:

Now this is what happens when we display the exact same image on the new iPad, an iPhone 4 or 4S:

now if we remove the gridlines:

iPad 1 and 2, and iPhone, 3G and 3GS:

new iPad, iPhone 4 and 4S:

EXACTLY THE SAME!

the close up photos posted further up, i don't know about you but i think the Retina one is better, at normal viewing distance, what you call "jaggies" to me give a much sharper crisper image seeing as there is a smaller gap between the pixels, it's the other one that looks blurriest to me.

 

[ZBoater]

OK maybe my last image wasn't clear enough.

how about this:


This is what a zoomed in image of a W looks like on an iPad 1 or 2, or an iPhone, 3G, or 3GS:
Image


Now this is what happens when we display the exact same image on the new iPad, an iPhone 4 or 4S:
Image


now if we remove the gridlines:

iPad 1 and 2, and iPhone, 3G and 3GS:
Image

new iPad, iPhone 4 and 4S:
Image

EXACTLY THE SAME!

the close up photos posed further up, i don't know about you but i think the Retina one is better, at normal viewing distance, what you call "jaggies" to me give a much sharper crisper image seeing as there is a smaller gap between the pixels, it's the other one that looks blurriest to me.

Bravo! Excellent post. Thank you!

 

[DS3]

What I did on the iPhone was just group Retina apps and non-retina apps separately so that the icons don't clash mixed together.

 

[MattZani]

I've seen the difference between retina and non retina with the iPhones, I might even take a photo for you tomorrow. The retina screen makes a non retina app look WORSE.

Just going to have to buckle down for a few months until all apps are updated, hopefully the retina iPhone has made devs more aware though, and all the rumours etc.

 

[Jason S.]

Sure, they are the same in terms of pixels. But they do not look the same. Maybe similar, but definitely not the same.

In my opinion -- and it is clear from this thread it is a matter of opinion -- the graphics look better on their original device than when they are upscaled for the Retina Display.

I'm curious to know who here has actually owned both a "non-Retina" iPhone and one with a high-res display.

 

[Lukeyy19]

I'm curious to know who here has actually owned both a "non-Retina" iPhone and one with a high-res display.

i had a "non-retina" iPod touch, and then an iPhone 4

 

[slicecom]

OK maybe my last image wasn't clear enough.

how about this:


This is what a zoomed in image of a W looks like on an iPad 1 or 2, or an iPhone, 3G, or 3GS:
Image


Now this is what happens when we display the exact same image on the new iPad, an iPhone 4 or 4S:
Image


now if we remove the gridlines:

iPad 1 and 2, and iPhone, 3G and 3GS:
Image

new iPad, iPhone 4 and 4S:
Image

EXACTLY THE SAME!

the close up photos posted further up, i don't know about you but i think the Retina one is better, at normal viewing distance, what you call "jaggies" to me give a much sharper crisper image seeing as there is a smaller gap between the pixels, it's the other one that looks blurriest to me.

Did you read ANYTHING that was written in this thread about pixel pitch? You're talking images, not displays. 2 different things. Your images have a pixel pitch of 0; this doesn't exist in reality.

 

[Lukeyy19]

Did you read ANYTHING that was written in this thread about pixel pitch? You're talking images, not displays. 2 different things. Your images all have a pixel pitch of 0; this doesn't exist in reality.

pixel pitch has got nothing to do with it.

 

[slicecom]

pixel pitch has got nothing to do with it.

Of course it does! We're talking about physical pixels on a display here, not images. We know the images are the same, nobody is disputing that.

 

[Tinmania]

Sure, they are the same in terms of pixels. But they do not look the same. Maybe similar, but definitely not the same.

In my opinion -- and it is clear from this thread it is a matter of opinion -- the graphics look better on their original device than when they are upscaled for the Retina Display.

I'm curious to know who here has actually owned both a "non-Retina" iPhone and one with a high-res display.

Plenty of people, including me. I used to have an iPhone 1G, 3GS, and 4. Now I still have iPhone 1G (can't let that one go), 4 and a 4S. I won't even count iPod touch's.

I don't see any major difference between a non retina app on a non retina iPhone and the same app on my iPhone 4S or 4--except that perhaps the 4 and 4S seem a little brighter and clearer.

I think this non-issue is getting blown way out of proportion here.


Michael

 

[MythicFrost]

I own both a 3GS and a 4S and in Safari images on websites look better on the 4S. Text too, it's a little more readable at the same zoom level.

There's one game (Dungeon Defenders) which I always seemed to look worse on my 4S than my 3GS, but I'm not sure I ever compared it directly. It could've been the same, or even just appeared a bit worse because I'm so used to everything being sharp.

 

[Lukeyy19]

Of course it does! We're talking about physical pixels on a display here, not images. We know the images are the same, nobody is disputing that.

the pixel pitch on the iPad 1 and 2 is 192µm, on the new iPad it is 96µm

so we are talking about pixels that are exactly half the size, spaced exactly half the distance away from each other, so where's the difference?

 

[slicecom]

the pixel pitch on the iPad 1 and 2 is 192µm, on the new iPad it is 96µm

so we are talking about pixels that are exactly half the size, spaced exactly half the distance away from each other, so where's the difference?

The difference is that there's twice as much black between pixels on the iPad 1 and 2 than there is on the new iPad! This makes the jaggies much less apparent. Think about the numbers you just quoted.

 

[ntrigue]

I'm thinking they'll look like iPhone apps on an iPad...

All together incorrect. The ratio from iPhone to iPad is different. Not a fair comparison.

 

[Viper2005]

The difference is that there's twice as much black between pixels on the iPad 1 and 2 than there is on the new iPad! This makes the jaggies much less apparent. Think about the numbers you just quoted.

Yes the pixel pitch and screen door effect of the old iPad hides the jaggies. With the increased pixel density of the ipad3 the jaggies appear in stark contrast.
The resolution is the same.. But does the jaggies make the overall image quality worse? IMO, yes!

Btw I played a psp game on my ps vita today. Same situation as ipad2 -> ipad3, pixels doubled, same screen size. IQ looked bad.