iPad Mini Confirmed to Carry Stereo Speakers

[Jodles]

In the second paragraph you answer your own question.

Yes, but I tried to appeal to take context into consideration.

Sorry, I do not see what I'm answering myself there. And context doesn't matter, stereo is still 2 or any more speakers that can provide the illusion of directionality of sound.

Edit: I have a feeling we're not talking about the same thing. I think we can both agree on the definition of stereo. And that in the case of the iPad mini, that the directionality is created solely by the placement of the speakers since they are so close together, resulting in no appreciable "stereo" effect, even though you might send a stereo signal to it (at least you won't be cancelling any sound due to phase differences between L/R when downmixing to mono).

 

[subsonix]

Sorry, I do not see what I'm answering myself there. And context doesn't matter, stereo is still 2 or any more speakers that can provide the illusion of directionality of sound.

I said:

It's not an illusion, the directionality is achieved by the speaker placement.

And you said that the effect disappears if the speakers are placed too close together. Therefor it's the placement of the speakers that creates the stereo effect. You place two (or more lol) sources in a physical space, recreating sound waves that are directional, all of this is real and not an illusion.

 

[Jodles]

I said:

And you said that the effect disappears if the speakers are placed too close together. Therefor it's the placement of the speakers that creates the stereo effect. You place two (or more lol) sources in a physical space, recreating sound waves that are directional, all of this is real and not an illusion.

Exactly, sound waves are directional, but when they sound like they're coming from some place else, that is the illusion!

 

[subsonix]

Exactly, sound waves are directional, but when they sound like they're coming from some place else, that is the illusion!

No they don't unless some haaz effect is involved. Speakers aren't lasers, if you have a pair in front of you at 45 degree angles sound waves spread all over the place.

 

[Jodles]

No they don't unless some haaz effect is involved. Speakers aren't lasers, if you have a pair in front of you at 45 degree angles sound waves spread all over the place.

You're not taking my point at all. Of course they spread all over the place, and that will affect the image, sure, but that's not the primary reason for the illusion of sound coming from elsewhere but directly from the loudspeakers. You can be in an anechoic room with two loudspeakers with a 2-channel stereo signal, and these two loudspeakers can still create an illusion that sound is coming from wherever in between the two, even though there are absolutely no reflections off of any wall, floor, ceiling or any object.

And it's Haas effect (and the stereo-illusion is closely related and also a psychoacoustic phenomenon).

 

[subsonix]

You're not taking my point at all. Of course they spread all over the place, and that will affect the image, sure, but that's not the primary reason for the illusion of sound coming from elsewhere but directly from the loudspeakers. You can be in an anechoic room with two loudspeakers with a 2-channel stereo signal, and these two loudspeakers can still create an illusion that sound is coming from wherever in between the two, even though there are absolutely no reflections off of any wall, floor, ceiling or any object.

And it's Haas effect.

I think you missed my point of speakers not being lasers, I'm not talking about reflections, the sound waves of two speakers placed in front of you at 45 degree angles will overlap, air will move in front of you, it's a real physical phenomenon not an illusion.

 

[Jodles]

I think you missed my point of speakers not being lasers, I'm not talking about reflections, the sound waves of two speakers placed in front of you will overlap, air will move in front of you it's a real physical phenomenon not an illusion.

No, it's called interaural time difference (ITD) and interaural level difference (ILD). Which is why your headphones can achieve the same effect without the sound waves overlapping in physical space.

Have a look at this, or any other site you find searching for the above on Google: http://www.holophony.net/Two_Ears-Two_Loudspeakers.htm, specifically quote: "All conventional audio procedures, including the surround formats, produce phantom acoustic sources which we perceive between single loudspeakers. These sound sources aren't real sound sources. We establish the perception in the brain through the psychoacoustic connection of both ear signals."

 

[subsonix]

No, it's called interaural time difference (ITD) and interaural level difference (ILD). Which is why your headphones can achieve the same effect without the sound waves overlapping in physical space.

Have a look at this, or any other site you find searching for the above on Google: http://www.holophony.net/Two_Ears-Two_Loudspeakers.htm, specifically quote: "All conventional audio procedures, including the surround formats, produce phantom acoustic sources which we perceive between single loudspeakers. These sound sources aren't real sound sources. We establish the perception in the brain through the psychoacoustic connection of both ear signals."

I'm aware of this, but this phenomenon appears naturally as well which is why we can sense direction of sound even though we only have two ears.
But to get back a bit here, to claim that stereo sound is solely an illusion even though there are several real sound sources involved is nonsense. Psycho acoustic effects such as the Haas effect, appears naturally as well and therefor applies to sound produced by a speaker too.

 

[Jodles]

I'm aware of this, but this phenomenon appears naturally as well which is why we can sense direction of sound even though we only have two ears.
But to get back a bit here, to claim that stereo sound is solely an illusion even though there are several real sound sources involved is nonsense. Psycho acoustic effects such as the Haas effect, appears naturally as well and therefor applies to sound produced by a speaker too.

I'm saying that the illusion is the phantom images caused by time and level differences from two or more separated speakers. And yes, we can sense direction of sound with two ears exactly because of ILD and ITD - the exact same psycho acoustic effects apply to natural sources as well. Stereo exploits this fact to create phantom images.

But I think we should stop here, as we seem to have taken over this thread completely! Thanks for a nice debate though

 

[darkslide29]

They also leave out that you can use that same prime subscription and watch the same movies and tv on your iPad. I like that Amazon keeps the hardware and content businesses separate, but sometimes the results are pretty funny.

LOL I completely forgot that Amazon Video is available on iPad! Good point. Wish I had thought to put that in my original post.
And I also like that about Amazon. I'll occasionally use the iPad kindle app, for example.

 

[subsonix]

I'm saying that the illusion is the phantom images caused by time and level differences from two or more separated speakers. And yes, we can sense direction of sound with two ears exactly because of ILD and ITD. Stereo exploits this fact to create phantom images.

Right, but this applies to all sound we perceive, all directional information is an illusion. But that argument get's us no where.

 

[Kadman]

I'm definitely going to call BS on this one. There's no way in hell it's a true stereo speaker setup. Maybe the reviewer in question heard sound coming from both grills as sound echoed through the chassis or maybe he's as confused as the people who claim one of the speakers on their iPhone isn't working.

Look at the facts available at this time.
-The image on Apple's web site points to 1 grill location and labels it "speaker." If it had stereo speakers, they would have the lines pointing to both grills and marketing surely wouldn't miss the opportunity to say "stereo speakers". Better yet, marketing types would probably throw some color into it with "high fidelity", "immersive", or other BS lingo.
-The headphone jack notes that it's stereo. Duh! Why worry about that and not note that they addressed one of the criticisms when compared to the competition?
-The specs table also lists "speaker" in the singular form. All other products (iMac, MBA, MBP, etc) list "stereo speakers" in their specs grid. The only ones that don't? The Mini and the Pro, that have mono speaker setups.

Feedback from the field is:
-This guy stating that it's stereo, and claims that Apple confirmed it (no cited source).
-Others who asked while participating in the hands-on sessions who asked the "handlers" of the devices and were told it's not stereo.

Not to mention the fact that even if it were stereo, putting both on one side would just be flat out dumb. A bit like buying a 7.1 theater system for the house and setting all the speakers in one corner of the room.

I'll eat crow if stereo turns out to be true, but I don't think it will happen. Oh, and I wouldn't count BS stereo claims (i.e. single speaker with dual ports, dual voice coil drivers on a single cone, the fact that it can interpret a stereo signal and create a "stereo space", or any crap like that).

 

[Jodles]

Right, but this applies to all sound we perceive, all directional information is an illusion. But that argument get's us no where.

No, because:

If you have a single loudspeaker to your right, it sounds like it's coming from the right, and psychoacoustic effects make you perceive it coming from the right. But this is a real wavefront coming from the right, so it is not an illusion, it's a real source and our brain uses ITD and ILD to interpret where it is coming from.

In a stereo signal with two or more loudspeakers, the level and time difference between the two sources is purposefully altered, to make your brain think that there is a source of sound some place else.

The first is real, the second is a phantom source/illusion (set up by two real loudspeakers), both effects caused by psycho acoustic phenomena.

Done!

 

[Kadman]

LOL I completely forgot that Amazon Video is available on iPad! Good point. Wish I had thought to put that in my original post.
And I also like that about Amazon. I'll occasionally use the iPad kindle app, for example.

The Amazon table calls this out, but of course in the area that shows it in their favor. Under the category of "interoperability" they show that the content can be used on Apple products. This is expected marketing BS that they simply present it in a way that shows continued support of their case. They all do that sort of crap, including Apple.

 

[subsonix]

No, because:

If you have a single loudspeaker to your right, it sounds like it's coming from the right, and psychoacoustic effects make you perceive it coming from the right. But this is a real wavefront coming from the right, so it is not an illusion, it's a real source and our brain uses ITD and ILD to interpret where it is coming from.

In a stereo signal with two or more loudspeakers, the level and time difference between the two sources is purposefully altered, to make your brain think that there is a source of sound some place else.

The first is real, the second is a phantom source/illusion (set up by two real loudspeakers), both effects caused by psycho acoustic phenomena.

Done!

And as a subjective agent with two ears walking around in a physical world your brain creates these phenomenas with or without speakers. So yes, it applies when you are listening to a stereo recording, but it also applies the rest of the time when you use your ears. What I'm trying to say is that this phenomena applies all the time with or without speakers. And a true non-faux stereo signal is not created by purposefully altering time, level and filter between the channels but by recording with two mics.

 

[Jodles]

And as a subjective agent with two ears walking around in a physical world your brain creates these phenomenas with or without speakers. So yes, it applies when you are listening to a stereo recording, but it also applies the rest of the time when you use your ears. What I'm trying to say is that this phenomena applies all the time with or without speakers. And a true non-faux stereo signal is not created by purposefully altering time, level and filter between the channels but by recording with two mics.

Are we actually disagreeing?

By recording with two mics and various stereo recording techniques you are purposefully creating time and level differences by placing these mics at various positions in the sound field relative to the source. As you probably know, any spaced pair uses ITD, ORTF tries to emulate ITD and ILD of the human head, by separating the capsules by 17cm, etc.

Altering was probably a bad selection of word from my side, but you are purposefully setting up a stereo image by different positioning. And when reproduced with two speakers your ears pick up these cues and creates phantom images based on them.

 

[subsonix]

Altering was probably a bad selection of word from my side, but you are purposefully setting up a stereo image by different positioning. And when reproduced with two speakers your ears pick up these cues and creates phantom images based on them.

With the purpose of capturing the real world, not creating something that isn't there. Are we disagreeing, well I think we are describing two sides of the same coin, the point I'm trying to make is that the cues and these images appears without a recording and speakers as well. Which is why it's in my opinion an unnecessary low level to describe what is going on.

 

[Kadman]

With the purpose of capturing the real world, not creating something that isn't there. Are we disagreeing, well I think we are describing two sides of the same coin, the point I'm trying to make is that the cues and these images appears without a recording and speakers as well. Which is why it's in my opinion an unnecessary low level to describe what is going on.

Within the context of the thread, I don't think it much matters. Not discounting thoughts from either of you, but within the realm of what's being discussed, it shouldn't go that deep. If Apple were working the engineering to create sound fields with minimalistic elements, it would have REALLY gone over the top to state this as it's the kind of thing they pride themselves on. I think it's really going to come down to something simple: either they have a stereo speaker setup or they don't. My money is on "they don't."

 

[milo]

Yeah, it seems like you guys mostly agree but are just nitpicking on semantics.

In the most general sense, the way stereo sound works is if you want a sound to be perceived as coming from the left, you need to put a speaker on the left. In portrait, the left speaker is probably less than an inch further left than the right speaker. And in landscape, both speakers are on the right.

While at least in portrait it may be technically stereo, it's going to be about the worst stereo imaging anyone has ever heard. In landscape it's arguably not even stereo at all.

With a tablet there's obviously a limit to how good stereo imaging and even the speakers themselves can be. But the mini is far worse than what should be possible.

 

[StoneJack]

Yeah, it seems like you guys mostly agree but are just nitpicking on semantics.

In the most general sense, the way stereo sound works is if you want a sound to be perceived as coming from the left, you need to put a speaker on the left. In portrait, the left speaker is probably less than an inch further left than the right speaker. And in landscape, both speakers are on the right.

While at least in portrait it may be technically stereo, it's going to be about the worst stereo imaging anyone has ever heard. In landscape it's arguably not even stereo at all.

With a tablet there's obviously a limit to how good stereo imaging and even the speakers themselves can be. But the mini is far worse than what should be possible.

As for mini and tablets in general, its hard to expect a decent sound from them (same problems or worse than notebook sound - I have Vaio with such tiny sound, supposedly stereo but you can't hear much. Tablets are much thinner, limiting the size of speakers naturally. A dock or airplay audio would be much better anyway.

 

[milo]

That's what I said.

A tablet is never going to sound as good as speakers that are able to be bigger. But that said, the way the mini does "stereo" is far worse than putting two speakers on the opposite sides of the device.

 

[Jodles]

milo, Kadman, subsonix: Yeah, I think we can all agree that we're not getting any appreciable stereo localization from those two drivers in the iPad mini!

The only good thing might be that if they send L/R to separate speakers, you won't be summing them to mono in the circuitry. And if it's phasy then summing to mono sounds bad.. Of course it will just happen in the air instead, but you might be able to get away with that a bit easier..

 

[Kadman]

As they say, the proof is in the pudding. If I can hold an iPad mini up in front of me in a landscape mode while watching a movie, close my eyes, and perceive an object (car, plane, etc) moving from one side of the screen to the other, then it's stereo. If I can't, then it's not.

 

[Jodles]

As they say, the proof is in the pudding. If I can hold an iPad mini up in front of me in a landscape mode while watching a movie, close my eyes, and perceive an object (car, plane, etc) moving from one side of the screen to the other, then it's stereo. If I can't, then it's not.

Or just hallucination And make sure you don't inadvertently cover the loudspeaker with your hands (as I do all the time on my old new iPad)...

 

[0098386]

Amazon failed to include that the AppStore has so many more quality apps...

iOS games are quality?