iPhone 6 1920x1280?

[beosound3200]

It's not hostility, its making sure people like you have the correct information. I see you are now backing off your claim of a hard and fast 300DPI requirement for Retina, and are now saying its a matter of competition. Well the competition point is another issue and can be debated. However, as far as what defines retina and what doesn't, I'll go ahead and refer you to my other, correct, post.

what claim? what are you talking about? retina display is a marketing term introduced by apple on the iphone 4 keynote stating that on displays higher than 300dpi you basically cant see the pixels. thats all thats relevant. theories that developed later, about distance of the screen etc. arent important to me because people have different eyesight for one, and for two sometimes you hold your phone closer, sometimes farther away. so your concept of inches between an eye and the screen may be correct in the case of average human eyesight but its not important important at all here. retina display is a marketing term and apple can do with it whatever it wants, but i assure you they wont go below 300dpi mark with their phone even if people grow 6 foot arms and develop a perfect eyesight, it would be a marketing suicide, especially when the competition is above that mark. so go preach to another forum about your retina enlightenment, or be on topic. the topic is what apple will/could do, and going below 300dpi is not happening.

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Is the doubling better than just using same ratio yeah but not as much as Apple has lead your to believe.

In upscaling no matter if it is doubling or same ratio you still are going to have the same issues in the upscaling. There is guessimation done when things are upscaled software can not do it perfectly as like I said it has guesses and assumptions in it.

Top it off you need to look at screen size and try to figure out if you can tell the difference. In your example you are using what I am going to guess is a 17-19in 4:3 monitor. Depending on your distance that is going to be pretty easy to tell of the issues. The pixels are quite a bit larger there. Phone screen size no so much.

Remember it is always better to downscale instead of upscale as the guessing is dangers are not as bad as things do not have to be added only removed.

thats the word i've been looking for. so you dont think apple will try to avoid guessimation regardless of the screen size? when theres doubling you dont have guessimation? 4 pixels=1, instead 1.5/1.7/2.3 etc.=1pixel

this is all in context of legacy apps, so 960x640 on lets say 1440x960

 

[Rodimus Prime]

thats the word i've been looking for. so you dont think apple will try to avoid guessimation regardless of the screen size? when theres doubling you dont have guessimation? 4 pixels=1, instead 1.5/1.7/2.3 etc.=1pixel

this is all in context of legacy apps, so 960x640 on lets say 1440x960

even going from the orginal iPhone resolution to the iPhone 4 reteina resolution there are guessmiation issues. That is not something that can be avoided. Look at the people who complained about apps not being updated. How they look like crap on the iPhone 4 but still good on the 3GS and iPods.

Is 4x better yes but minor at best and you still have the screen size because at that size it is just to small to be able to tell. Even more so when you are talking about that high of a ppi.

 

[beosound3200]

even going from the orginal iPhone resolution to the iPhone 4 reteina resolution there are guessmiation issues. That is not something that can be avoided. Look at the people who complained about apps not being updated. How they look like crap on the iPhone 4 but still good on the 3GS and iPods.

Is 4x better yes but minor at best and you still have the screen size because at that size it is just to small to be able to tell. Even more so when you are talking about that high of a ppi.

well, thank you for your explanations, you learn something every day i guess in any case apple will have to deal with bigger screen, higher resolution and apps that become non-retina (dpi) on bigger screen until they are updated, that transition period just needs to happen.

 

[Buildbright]

I want a 4" retina display iphone with LTE.

 

[kre62]

what claim? what are you talking about? retina display is a marketing term introduced by apple on the iphone 4 keynote stating that on displays higher than 300dpi you basically cant see the pixels. thats all thats relevant. theories that developed later, about distance of the screen etc. arent important to me because people have different eyesight for one, and for two sometimes you hold your phone closer, sometimes farther away. so your concept of inches between an eye and the screen may be correct in the case of average human eyesight but its not important important at all here. retina display is a marketing term and apple can do with it whatever it wants, but i assure you they wont go below 300dpi mark with their phone even if people grow 6 foot arms and develop a perfect eyesight, it would be a marketing suicide, especially when the competition is above that mark. so go preach to another forum about your retina enlightenment, or be on topic. the topic is what apple will/could do, and going below 300dpi is not happening.

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Theories that developed later huh.

This is what you arent getting. I'm telling you that Apple defined retina as 300DPI when the iPhone 4 screen, which is 3.5", is held at a distance of 10-12 inches. Still don't believe me? Watch the man himself back me up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcnKi7GxZ2k

Pay close attention. He says 300PPI is the Limit "WHEN YOU HOLD SOMEHTING 10-12 INCHES" from your eye.

Crazy Steve Jobs and his theories.

Now, go forth with your corrected knowledge, and never again claim a hard and fast 300PPI number.

 

[macfrik]

Who cares about this? Whats the point of discussing future iPhone when the next generation iPhone hasn't even rumored yet

 

[beosound3200]

Theories that developed later huh.

This is what you arent getting. I'm telling you that Apple defined retina as 300DPI when the iPhone 4 screen, which is 3.5", is held at a distance of 10-12 inches. Still don't believe me? Watch the man himself back me up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcnKi7GxZ2k

Pay close attention. He says 300PPI is the Limit "WHEN YOU HOLD SOMEHTING 10-12 INCHES" from your eye.

Crazy Steve Jobs and his theories.

Now, go forth with your corrected knowledge, and never again claim a hard and fast 300PPI number.

ok, i stand corrected with my lack of further specification.

'corrected' statement: retina display on a phone - 300dpi

happy?

try to channel your extra energy into something a bit more useful

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Who cares about this? Whats the point of discussing future iPhone when the next generation iPhone hasn't even rumored yet

who cares? i care, hence the thread? and if you dont, why unnecessary post?

and indeed it was the object of rumors, today

 

[Apple Key]

Once you can't see the pixels anymore, it doesn't matter. I could see it getting slightly higher than "retina" but not that high. That is until we have flexible displays that can be rolled up and stretched out to show as large or small of a screen as we want.

 

[kre62]

ok, i stand corrected with my lack of further specification.

'corrected' statement: retina display on a phone - 300dpi

happy?

try to channel your extra energy into something a bit more useful

Seriously? Youre messing with me, right?

Why would I be happy with you repeating your original claim that I've debunked many times?

Heres the correct statement:

300DPI is retina for a 3.5" display held, quote Steve Jobs "10-12 inches from your face".

The point i've been making is distance from face is a factor. Screen size is a factor. DPI is a factor. These three things combine are used to calculate retina on a case by case, screen by screen basis. Ok?

So no, 300DPI is not retina for a phone...if that phone has a 4" screen, the number is more like 260ppi.

 

[kre62]

Further clarification, a chart telling you retina limits based on distance:

https://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=10505516

 

[beosound3200]

Seriously? Youre messing with me, right?

Why would I be happy with you repeating your original claim that I've debunked many times?

Heres the correct statement:

300DPI is retina for a 3.5" display held, quote Steve Jobs "10-12 inches from your face".

The point i've been making is distance from face is a factor. Screen size is a factor. DPI is a factor. These three things combine are used to calculate retina on a case by case, screen by screen basis. Ok?

So no, 300DPI is not retina for a phone...if that phone has a 4" screen, the number is more like 260ppi.

when apple releases a phone with 4 inch screen and 260dpi and says its retina, then its a correct statement. its their marketing term. and it aint happening. the only factor is distance from the eyes in relation with dpi (if you indeed are thinking of it that way). calculate all you want, but apple still wont come out with a phone below 300 dpi, so thats the limitation ive been talking about. you're making too much out of this retina thing, just a marketing term for a screen 'without' pixels (notice that last statement, suddenly distance becomes irrelevant) where do you get the energy to nitpick this long. just leave it be. who cares. i know i dont

 

[djrod]

IIRC the 300 was the limit the human eye can see pixels hold at a iPhone-holding-distance.

With the current resolution 960x640 we can only reach 3.8" to achieve 303 PPI, it also fits the exact with of the current iPhone...

Quick fugly mockup using the iPhone 4 just to see the screen difference (Click to enlarge) :

What do you guys think?

 

[beosound3200]

Further clarification, a chart telling you retina limits based on distance:

https://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=10505516

i understand what you're getting at, but its completely irrelevant. so if iphone gets 0.5 inches larger screen, how much further away am i holding it?

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IIRC the 300 was the limit the human eye can see pixels hold at a iPhone-holding-distance.

With the current resolution 960x640 we can only reach 3.8" to achieve 303 PPI, it also fits the exact with of the current iPhone...

Quick fugly mockup using the iPhone 4 just to see the screen difference (Click to enlarge) :

What do you guys think?

in my opinion, thats the most possible solution, but would indeed render iphone somewhat 'behind' the 720p competition

 

[kre62]

i understand what you're getting at, but its completely irrelevant. so if iphone gets 0.5 inches larger screen, how much further away am i holding it?

On Wednesday when they call the iPad 3 retina even though it will "only" be like 270PPI, theyll probably explain to you how far youll be holding that 9.8" device. And with 270PPI devices on the market for 6+ months before the 5, a 4" 960x640 5 at 270PPI would be just fine in the consumers eyes.

 

[Dunbar]

What do you guys think?

We're all throwing darts at dartboard at this point. IMO, it's pretty certain the resolution won't change so it depends on if you think 300ppi is some magic number Apple won't drop below. I certainly do not see the ppi being particularly relevant to Apple marketing if the screen size goes up.

 

[beosound3200]

On Wednesday when they call the iPad 3 retina even though it will "only" be like 270PPI, theyll probably explain to you how far youll be holding that 9.8" device. And with 270PPI devices on the market for 6+ months before the 5, a 4" 960x640 5 at 270PPI would be just fine in the consumers eyes.

a device almost 2.8 times larger with almost the same dpi? an iphone with half an inch larger screen and an ipad with almost 10 inches is not a good comparison.
what about galaxy nexus 316dpi, possibly 1080p SIII (400+ dpi)? they cant go back now. iphone is a flagship and is competing with flagships. apple cant live on past glory forever. you can probably say that no future flagship will have less than 300 dpi, dont you think? and in a couple of years, no smartphone either. apple set the standard, they cant go below it with the iphone.

 

[kre62]

a device almost 2.8 times larger with almost the same dpi? an iphone with half an inch larger screen and an ipad with almost 10 inches is not a good comparison.
what about galaxy nexus 316dpi, possibly 1080p SIII (400+ dpi)? they cant go back now. iphone is a flagship and is competing with flagships. apple cant live on past glory forever. you can probably say that no future flagship will have less than 300 dpi, dont you think? and in a couple of years, no smartphone either. apple set the standard, they cant go below it with the iphone.

I think theyll do their own thing regardless of competition, as long as it provides a sound user experience.

The 1080p GS3 is just a rumor at this point, and keep in mind the screen will be pentile, which effectively reduces its resolution (and ppi) by 1/3. The Nexus is also pentile, which takes its PPI count down to something like 220. For the uninitiated, Pentile uses a combination of pixels to simulate the number of pixels they say they are providing. The iphone actually gives you the number of pixels it claims (960x640=614400 actual pixels). Pentile sucks.

 

[beosound3200]

I think theyll do their own thing regardless of competition, as long as it provides a sound user experience.

The 1080p GS3 is just a rumor at this point, and keep in mind the screen will be pentile, which effectively reduces its resolution (and ppi) by 1/3. The Nexus is also pentile, which takes its PPI count down to something like 220. For the uninitiated, Pentile uses a combination of pixels to simulate the number of pixels they say they are providing. The iphone actually gives you the number of pixels it claims (960x640=614400 actual pixels). Pentile sucks.

yeah, i understand that whole pentile screen, but they still advertise it as if it isnt pentile. you dont think apple will up the resolution if they go bigger?

 

[kre62]

yeah, i understand that whole pentile screen, but they still advertise it as if it isnt pentile. you dont think apple will up the resolution if they go bigger?

Personally, not if they just go to 4". If above 4" then yes probably. I hope they dont go above 4".

 

[beosound3200]

Personally, not if they just go to 4". If above 4" then yes probably. I hope they dont go above 4".

definitely, everything above 4 is too large for my fingers, but i do think that they will use the opportunity to go 720p if it wont make fragmentation issues, that kind of screen shouldnt be too hard to make. that opens a whole lot of opportunity for apps in ui terms. they could also rewrite the os so the ui stays the same physical size like now on 4' 960x640 but at higher resolution you could also see 'more'. i really dont see them going below 300dpi, not just because of the 'magic number' but because it definitely makes sense to up the resolution. that kind of screen would have 324, so just about the same as now. perfect advertisement, bigger screen, same dpi, more functionality. it also opens door to ui changes in ios6/7. i really do believe that we will see a lot of changes this year with ios and iphone, and resolution is probably one of them. they need to bring back the 'wow' factor to the iphone

 

[DroidRules]

just for the sake of discussion, nothing more, you dont need to get involved if you dont want to

I got involved for the sake of discussion. Just as I did with the other 50 iPhone 5 threads..... for sake of discussion.

 

[thekev]

well, it isnt actually solved, thats why lcd monitors have something called 'native resolution' so everything except that resolution looks blurry. thats the problem im referring to. if 1.5 physical pixels display 1 virtual pixel images become blurry, am i right? thats why apple decided to double the resolution in the first place, so 4 pixels would display 1 pixel. the apps would certainly run, but imagine how they would look (ui elements, art, etc.) is there a possibility for developers to use vector graphics?

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you honestly think apple will come out with an iphone below 300 dpi mark? do your homework and look at the competition. im not interested in concepts about 'retina' display, im more interested what will apple do with their future phones, hence the thread.

the hostility on this forum is just unbearable

I completely understand that Apple goes by doubling due to the way their higher dpi functions are set up. Regarding the 300 dpi mark though, this is just another spec war. What matters is how it looks and functions. If you can't tell the difference, I don't think it'll matter. No hostility, just my opinion. You do run into an increased power draw with packing in more pixels. The increased power draw can also affect cooling, color stability, and potential for image persistence. There are quite a few engineering issues with these things that Apple seems to frequently ignore in their larger display implementations.

I like reading white papers .

 

[psonice]

Let's look at this another way:

If they double resolution while increasing screen size just a bit, they'd have nearly 4x more pixels than they need. If 300ppi is optimal, they want to keep close to that figure, because anything too far over is simply wasted. Near 4x over is massively wasteful, it'd have an impact on cost, performance and battery life. Maybe the A6 will be powerful enough to drive it, but it'd still be wasting lots of power drawing pixels you can't see and draining the battery as a result. When did you last see apple doing anything really wasteful like that? They focus on making stuff efficient instead, so this definitely won't happen.

Also, it *would* still cause fragmentation. OK, so current apps could be scaled up easily. If the screen is much bigger the UI is going to be a little too big though - it's going to feel wrong. Devs are going to have to write 2 versions of their UIs, one for current iPhones, 1 for the new iPhone. That's fragmentation right there. If you're going to have fragmentation anyway, why not just pick a new screen resolution, keep it close to 300ppi so it looks good but is still highly efficient, and just put a black border round old apps? It's not perfect, the black border would be annoying but at least the UI would be the right size.

 

[Cod3rror]

That Galaxy S III rumour is absolute nonsense!

I guarantee you it will not have a 1080p screen.

In fact the reason the screen size is 4.8" is because they probably could not make pixels any smaller in their AMOLED technology at 720p, the smallest size came out at 4.8".

It was the same story with Galaxy S II, the smallest screen size they could make at the given resolution was 4.27".

 

[beosound3200]

Let's look at this another way:

If they double resolution while increasing screen size just a bit, they'd have nearly 4x more pixels than they need. If 300ppi is optimal, they want to keep close to that figure, because anything too far over is simply wasted. Near 4x over is massively wasteful, it'd have an impact on cost, performance and battery life. Maybe the A6 will be powerful enough to drive it, but it'd still be wasting lots of power drawing pixels you can't see and draining the battery as a result. When did you last see apple doing anything really wasteful like that? They focus on making stuff efficient instead, so this definitely won't happen.

Also, it *would* still cause fragmentation. OK, so current apps could be scaled up easily. If the screen is much bigger the UI is going to be a little too big though - it's going to feel wrong. Devs are going to have to write 2 versions of their UIs, one for current iPhones, 1 for the new iPhone. That's fragmentation right there. If you're going to have fragmentation anyway, why not just pick a new screen resolution, keep it close to 300ppi so it looks good but is still highly efficient, and just put a black border round old apps? It's not perfect, the black border would be annoying but at least the UI would be the right size.

I completely understand that Apple goes by doubling due to the way their higher dpi functions are set up. Regarding the 300 dpi mark though, this is just another spec war. What matters is how it looks and functions. If you can't tell the difference, I don't think it'll matter. No hostility, just my opinion. You do run into an increased power draw with packing in more pixels. The increased power draw can also affect cooling, color stability, and potential for image persistence. There are quite a few engineering issues with these things that Apple seems to frequently ignore in their larger display implementations.

I like reading white papers .

exactly, thats why i asked would it cause fragmentation? it would in a way, but nothing close to the problems with such a high dpi screen, so thats virtually impossible. what i now think after some further consideration is that they will up the resolution slightly, lets say 720p so the dpi remains the same even with lets say 4 inch screen, or whatever screen they come out with. theyll just have to find a way to make those legacy apps work full screen by upscaling, they will look like **** but its only until they are updated. but it still bothers me, theyll make retina apps look not retina. maybe those black borders are really the only option. in any way, developers will need to rewrite their apps for the new iphone, i guess this is inevitable.