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This seems ridiculous. While I do wish my headphones sounded better from my iPhone (Ultrasone Pro 900s), I don't want to 1. buy new really expensive headphones and 2. only be able to use them from my iPhone. I'm not one to care about bulk, especially since I do the majority of my iPhone to headphones listening at a desk at work, so a lightning out to a DAC/headphone amp would work best for me. And I'm in the minority, because hardly anyone cares enough to make sure their library is loaded with high quality music or is going to spend several hundred dollars on headphones.

I don't really agree with the comments about needing lossless music to enjoy this stuff, though. For space, I keep all my FLAC files on an external and my library runs on the highest quality AAC VBR. Ends up around 340kbps on average. Can't tell the difference on any of my equipment. I can't comment for sure, but unless you have absurdly good equipment or freakish ears, I'm not sure how anyone tells the difference between the highest quality compressed files and lossless.
 
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That is all rumors are about: Things you don't know for sure. And future will proof right or wrong. And we will have to make a decision that's for sure. And that is why these discussions help to prepare for such a decision.
My decision as of today would be stay with apple stop further investment and take a really close look at android. And that is for me and my family with 4 macbookPros one macmini server and 4 iPhones and 4 iPads. And tons of stuff from iTunes. But Apple is about to lose me. And I'm sure I won't be alone. And who will be won with that kind of product design? They will lose even more market share. And that is another point in favor of my decision.
Thinner does not equal innovation. And less is not always more.
[doublepost=1465420379][/doublepost]
No way! Apple moved to USB because it was already the dominant market standard. They were rather late. And it was only because their strategy was in an dead end then. Who remembers Gil Amelio then. Steve saved them and one point in his turnaround was opening Apple to market standards and focussing on key products. But times are changing and so does Apple. But sometimes history repeats and so I see Apples product line getting more and more confused. And even worse they are getting more and more propriatory and closed.

And that's why I can't take anything you say seriously. You are prepared to throw away thousands of pounds/dollars/euros/whatever investment for the sake of a 3.5mm jack. It's the height of silliness and just not a rational response. I defend your right to make that decision and vote with your wallet, but don't expect me to take your arguments seriously when they are coming from such a skewed position.

It wouldn't have taken you much effort to check your facts about Apple popularizing USB before making yourself look even more silly.
Apple Inc.'s iMac was the first mainstream product with USB and the iMac's success popularized USB itself. Following Apple's design decision to remove all legacy ports from the iMac, many PC manufacturers began building legacy-free PCs, which led to the broader PC market using USB as a standard.
Source:- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#
 
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Because when you send data through the air there are interferences. Period. Those interferences effect the audio quality, primarily latency, but other factors also. Now if all you have used are Apple earbuds, you probably don't have the ears to be able to detect it. But others can. You may also not be able to detect the changes if you are in a noisy environment, hence for a lot of people it does not matter.

I for one, would be happy with anything that provides better audio and is reasonably cost effective. If we get people used to listening to quality audio, the music industry will be forced to improve its mastering (which is largely crap today). Once you listen to well produced music on a good system, you don't want to go back. Of course none of that matters if you all you do is use music as background noise while you do other things.

Music can be truly enjoyable and emotional when listened to in the correct environment and it is an experience that everyone should have at least once.
Interference in radio signals only reduce data rate during conversion from analog to digital of the waves themselves. It does not affect the actual data. Therefore the audio sent over a modern protocol with error checking will have zero effect on audio quality. Zero. That's not how this works.
 
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Those saying "most" people listen to 256k where you're not going to hear the difference etc... I may say back to them that "most" people just use their earbuds/pods and having a different connector on that is going to pose no difference.

We're talking about a LOT of different listening styles. There are audiophiles and those who are satisfied with the DAC in the 3.5mm. There are those with a nice set of headphones, more than one set, one or more sets of cheapies, a car to connect to, iHome or the like, stereo system, etc. There are a few other niches and all the combinations of these factors lead to many different listening styles and connector needs. Even a single person could utilize more than one listening style whether it's in the background or they're doing some intent listening. (I go earbuds when I mow the lawn but shure E3c when I listen intently.)

The point is, none of us know what "most" people do. I care about sound quality, but not enough to get a pair of lightning headphones at the moment because I mostly listen during mowing/jogging/in the car. I won't mind when I have to either get an adaptor or new set of phones tho.

I agree with wanting USBC and I'm hopeful that charging at the same time will be addressed. for me, I only charge and listen rarely. Sometimes in my car I suppose, but then I have 2 cables going to my phone. Whether it's 2 cables to the phone, or two cables to a splitter then phone, it makes no difference except in the cost of the splitter. I'd be able to buy a $10 thing to match what the phone does today or a $50 splitter to get better control and audio fidelity. I'll forgive apple for making me make that choice and spending 10-50 more dollars depending on the quality I think I'll be able to take advantage of in my car.

A Lesson:
All digital audio is "compressed" as analog audio is infinite. There's a bit-rate (the number of times a second the audio is analyzed) and a bit depth (the number of bits used to describe that section of audio). At least in traditional encoding. There are other hifi methods. You can never improve the bit rate or bit depth of a digital file, but the DAC you choose can potentially return that audio signal closer to the original analog master tape. The speakers, wire, fit of the headphones, and your own ears are also factors in hearing the audio as it was recorded. Lossless compression schemes compress the audio like a zip file, removing NO data but making the filesize smaller. I liken them to zip files. Lossy compression schemes remove bits of audio out of human hearing range (supposedly) but this removal may leave artifacts in the audio. I'd liken this to taking out all spaces in a word doc. It can still be read, but when a computer tries to decipher it, there will be words that the computer splits into 2 words or other words that the computer may combine. You never get back the original file.

Final hope is that Apple starts distributing 24/48 audio as ALAC and we leave CD quality and lossy compression schemes in the dust. A 24/48 ALAC file may be 5x the size of an MP3 but drives are getting bigger fast and will soon outpace what we need to store higher fidelity music.
 
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I've actually listened to audio using the lightning to 30-pin adapter. The DAC in the adapter is terrible. Sound quality is really dead in the high end. The low end is really boomy.

You can also have headphones with cheap DACs as well. It sorta runs both ways. No one has mentioned this. All that has been mentioned is 'the companies have control over the DAC!' Well... that may be good or bad. Watch out for cheap headphones, people.

I've gone back to listening to an iPod in my car, simply because the lightning adapter's sound quality is so bad. At least the iPod still has an analog output with decent sound quality.

digital audio is digital audio. The 30-pin and lightning ports send digital audio exactly the same as each other and any other digital audio port and it's up to the DAC to decode the signal and make it analog. The device you're connecting to must have a DAC that is at least worse to your ears than what is in the ipod on the 3.5mm port. You make this point by saying that headphones can have a cheap DAC. Well, so can your car stereo.
 
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That is all rumors are about: Things you don't know for sure. And future will proof right or wrong. And we will have to make a decision that's for sure. And that is why these discussions help to prepare for such a decision.
My decision as of today would be stay with apple stop further investment and take a really close look at android. And that is for me and my family with 4 macbookPros one macmini server and 4 iPhones and 4 iPads. And tons of stuff from iTunes. But Apple is about to lose me. And I'm sure I won't be alone. And who will be won with that kind of product design? They will lose even more market share. And that is another point in favor of my decision.
Thinner does not equal innovation. And less is not always more.
[doublepost=1465420379][/doublepost]
No way! Apple moved to USB because it was already the dominant market standard. They were rather late. And it was only because their strategy was in an dead end then. Who remembers Gil Amelio then. Steve saved them and one point in his turnaround was opening Apple to market standards and focussing on key products. But times are changing and so does Apple. But sometimes history repeats and so I see Apples product line getting more and more confused. And even worse they are getting more and more propriatory and closed.

I lived through all sorts of changes in technology, from the time when floppy drives used 8" and 5.25" flimsy disks to cd-rom and every change caused lots of people (and companies) to flip out, because they were so invested in what they already had. But change happens and right or wrong, good or bad, you need to change to realize that what you had in the past often was not as good as you thought it was. And you end up dumping the old, and sucking up and buying new, because that's just how it works.

Apple is different than many companies of the past (and present) in that they have such a huge market of users today, that what they decide for product and technology often ends up becoming the standard. Personally, I can't believe that people are so fixated on the 3.5mm headphone plug and the potential for change. But as I've said previously, I'm not effected by the potential loss of the 3.5mm port, because I don't use it at all. In fact, I'd like it to go away, just because I don't use it - it's a worthless opening in the phone and the space it takes up could be used for other things that could benefit me (and others).
 
Recorded analog audio is most definitely not infinite. You can only store a finite amount of information on a vinyl record or tape.

Analog recordings are infinite. You can always divide any sample of recorded analog music into 2 samples. You can't look at an analog recording as data because it's not data. It's an analog signal.
 
Most seem to be on the fence about lightning connector headphones. I'm actually excited to see what's to come. I mean, imagine lightning connected headphones that also have the ability to charge your phone. Just a thought.
 
Personally, I can't believe that people are so fixated on the 3.5mm headphone plug and the potential for change. But as I've said previously, I'm not effected by the potential loss of the 3.5mm port, because I don't use it at all. In fact, I'd like it to go away, just because I don't use it - it's a worthless opening in the phone and the space it takes up could be used for other things that could benefit me (and others).

Really? you can't see why someone might not like having to add a 40 dollar adapter to 20 dollar earphones or replace them with 100 dollar headphones? are you that stuck up your own arse you can't see why that might not be a fun ride for a lot of people?

3.5mm has worked for decades. It's cheap. it's simple. It works with everything. It doesn't break unless you do something stupid. You can find replacements at any convenience store, electronics store, department store or practically everywhere else. They're in a huge range from super cheap "oops forgot my earphones lemme get a pair to wear today" buds to multi-hundred dollar beautifully designed and highly engineered audio experiences. It can be used for adaptive devices, card readers, adapters, hands free devices, practically anything you can want.

And you don't understand why we might be a LITTLE peeved at the idea of throwing all that out for a jack because you don't use it so much?

My god the nerve, the arrogance of a statement like that. I cannot fathom it.
 
yes lightening headphone would be expensive if u want good sound, but remember when everyone complained about Beats being expensive ? and some still do...

I say... tuff... if it works,, why change :D

Digital headphones ..... meh... as long as they sound good i don't care...

all this is a transition, but i'll leave it for as long as i want.

You go first, i'll hold back.
 
Its quite obvious apple are trying to win us over with ridiculous audiophile claims just so the '7' sans 3.5 seems better.
Absolute rubbish for most users.
Very unimpressed by this 'propaganda'.
 
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Its quite obvious apple are trying to win us over with ridiculous audiophile claims just so the '7' sans 3.5 seems better.
Absolute rubbish for most users.
Very unimpressed by this 'propaganda'.

Pretty silly thing to say without proof isn't it?
 
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Pretty silly thing to say without proof isn't it?

niji sums it up well
'the article is looking for some kind of way Lightning is better than 3.5 for audio.
and it doesn't find any'

Apple may be alienating only 10% of users (due to most using supplied poor quality ear buds) but that is still many millions of iPhone owners (myself included) who are alienated, I find that worrying for future apple sales & market share.
cheers
 
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I lived through all sorts of changes in technology, from the time when floppy drives used 8" and 5.25" flimsy disks to cd-rom and every change caused lots of people (and companies) to flip out, because they were so invested in what they already had. But change happens and right or wrong, good or bad, you need to change to realize that what you had in the past often was not as good as you thought it was. And you end up dumping the old, and sucking up and buying new, because that's just how it works.

Apple is different than many companies of the past (and present) in that they have such a huge market of users today, that what they decide for product and technology often ends up becoming the standard. Personally, I can't believe that people are so fixated on the 3.5mm headphone plug and the potential for change. But as I've said previously, I'm not effected by the potential loss of the 3.5mm port, because I don't use it at all. In fact, I'd like it to go away, just because I don't use it - it's a worthless opening in the phone and the space it takes up could be used for other things that could benefit me (and others).

I totally agree. And what about computers with only a few K of memory, ATA and SCSI drive adapters, 40mb hard drives, etc? Things have gotten smaller, faster, etc. We no longer use serial or parallel ports, and I think VGA ports are also pretty limited. We now have things like SSDs, microSDs, HDMI, and so on. The headphone adapter is the only ancient technology still left on the iPhone, and it's demise is long overdue.

People expect a better listening experience. Theaters, music venues, etc have for the most part updated their systems, you have lossless music formats and music players/phones with a lot of storage so you can store larger files, better headphones, etc. The only limitation in the whole system is the headphone jack.

Some people just have to be drug kicking and screaming through changes in technology. I think most people will just accept the changes and either buy new headphones or buy an adapter. I doubt the adapters will be Apple exclusive, so there will be MFi adapters that will be cheaper.

In the end it will all be forgotten and people will look at 3.5mm headphones and wonder what they were ever used for. Apple has more than enough money to lose a few users over the change. I think that eventually Android phones will drop the headphone jack and go to USB-C or a mini USB-C.
 
In isolation of using some kind of earbuds with only an iPhone, nobody feels much effect with how the buds terminate. And "crappy" will likely nullify any arguments of actually hearing better sound.

It's when you try to get more utility out of your crappy or non-crappy headphones that will make a population care. I just took a business trip. I took one set of good headphones. In the course of travel and because they terminated with a thoroughly ubiquitous standard, I easily jacked into many devices I encountered:
  • My own iDevices
  • My Mac
  • The clients Windows computer
  • The airlines seatback video screen
  • A video conference call device
  • A video monitor
Now go on my same trip in this "the future" with the crappy (or non-crappy) earbuds included. Are you carrying 2 sets of headphones/earbuds? Are you carrying adapters? Hassle. For what exactly?

Will all the non-Apple players adopt Lightning so that we can go through this transition and get back to what we have now- a ubiquitous standard that doesn't require us lugging adapters or multiple sets of headphones? NO, because the cheaper "replacement" standard will be USB3 (because Intel is going to build that into their own chipsets). Lightning will never be as ubiquitous, so those who embrace this change will always be rolling with adapters or multiple sets of buds or phones.
I think you misunderstand my point. I'm speaking towards the argument for why a lightning headphone will benefit even a majority of user. I honestly don't think most people will care because most people are not audiophiles. They'll use whatever they have available to them because that's good enough.

I don't thibk the average iOS user is likely plugging their headphones into more than just their iOS device. Further, I don't

In essence I'm agreeing with you, only in far fewer words.

I don't like the change. Anyone who cares to look at most post history can see I've been fairly vocal against it. But I'm also not going to say that I see this hurting Apple. People will deal with it. And life will move on. And if they want to use headphones like this they'll either get adapters or they won't. I'd much rather see USB-C but I think we are likely to see hell freeze over first.

At the end of the day I don't even think it is enough to keep me from upgrading. I likely won't this cycle solely because I'm so happy with my 6s plus. But I'd get over it, more than likely.
 
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I'm going to bet that the camera connect kit, the only way you can connect a 3rd party dac via USB, is still not going to be allowed. I'm running into the same problem now with my Alpine dac "unsupported device" or lies about "this device uses too much power" (it doesn't it's self powered and draws zero power through the USB) when connecting to any iOS device. So I'm almost sure the use of an external dac is only going to be those certified and paying for that certification to Apple. Ie only "Made For Apple" dac. Also fairly sure the dac will need a lightning connector as well, so even more lockdown and yah buying yet another dac.
 
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I'm going to bet that the camera connect kit, the only way you can connect a 3rd party dac via USB, is still not going to be allowed. I'm running into the same problem now with my Alpine dac "unsupported device" or lies about "this device uses too much power" (it doesn't it's self powered) when connecting to any iOS device. So I'm almost sure the use of an external dac is only going to be those certified and paying for that certification to Apple. Ie only "Made For Apple" dac. Also fairly sure the dac will need a lightning connector as well, so even more lockdown and yah buying yet another dac.
My powered Focusrite audio interface works through the USB camera adaptor and you can play music on the iPhone through the interface's DAC.
 
I am all for it as long as there is a way to charge the phone while listening to music.
 
Some people just have to be drug kicking and screaming through changes in technology. I think most people will just accept the changes and either buy new headphones or buy an adapter. I doubt the adapters will be Apple exclusive, so there will be MFi adapters that will be cheaper.

In the end it will all be forgotten and people will look at 3.5mm headphones and wonder what they were ever used for. Apple has more than enough money to lose a few users over the change. I think that eventually Android phones will drop the headphone jack and go to USB-C or a mini USB-C.

Anyone who ever used a headphone to listen to any sound from any source/system will never forget. Lightning only devices and headphones will meet so much resistance that if other companies jump on to introduce USB-C "digital" headphones, the format will squash Apple's lightning into dust. That is just about the technologically superior digital headphones and ports.

Apple does not have so much money that they can lose a "few" users - just see what happened when they went thinner, larger and "Android" with the iPhone 6, eliminating the 4" format in the newer technology. The usually robust "s" version did not sell well, the stock market spoke, and Apple sat up and noticed. They reintroduced the 4" version with almost all of the current tech of their other iPhones, and the reaction was so overwhelming. Even to date, they can't stock the iPhone 5 SE 64GB enough to meet the demand!

The loss of users will be not be a "few"!

If just an inconvenience of 0.7" size put off so many buyers that Apple had to introduce a mid-year model, you can expect worse rejection from the consumers. The mini 3.5 mm jack is just the smaller version of the audio-jacks used the world over from the original mono phone jacks to today's four-point jacks, regular to the 2.5 mm size for microphone input and stereo output. There is nothing wrong with the jack that is so bad that it needs to be eliminated from the world, leave alone from a handheld audio device such as phone that wants to be thinner! The $5 headphones to the $500 headphones all have their purpose - they are not going away.

Apple can shave 1 mm just by going from the current mini jack to the 2.5 mm jack!

Imagine a $5 lightning or USB-C headphone that one can get in a clinch to use from the local 24 hour store!
 
Apple does not have so much money that they can lose a "few" users - just see what happened when they went thinner, larger and "Android" with the iPhone 6, eliminating the 4" format in the newer technology. The usually robust "s" version did not sell well, the stock market spoke, and Apple sat up and noticed.

The 6S sold pretty well. It only paled in comparison to the iPhone 6, but that in itself was a one-off anomaly caused by intense pent-up demand for a larger iPhone. I don't take this to mean that iPhones are suddenly any less desirable.
 
Yep. This makes perfect sense for the majority of users, right?

Oh wait. Nearly everyone listens at 256kbps or less, from Apple Music streaming, iTunes MP3s or old CD rips.

The convenience lost ≠ the audio quality gained, for average joe.


I have a theory that this will be aligned with the release this yesr of new 'hi-fi encoded music from apple". Same file size but double the audio quality. using the new h265 codec, which the last few versions of arm cpu have had chip level decoding built in..
 
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According to some rumors, Apple's iPhone 7 and iPhone 7 Plus will not include a headphone jack, requiring headphones to connect to the devices using a Lightning connector.

Last month, MacRumors considered the case for and against Lightning headphones by comparing the audio performance of existing brands at three different price points: the $45 Brightech earphones, the $300 Philips Fidelio M2L headphones, and the $800 Audeze El-8 headphones.

In our tests, all of the Lightning-connected headphones, from the $45 pair to the $800 pair, sounded better than comparable headphones connected to an iPhone using the 3.5mm jack.

Yesterday, The Verge took a closer look at the brand in our highest price bracket, the Audeze El-8, alongside the company's Sine headphones, and argued its own reasons for why adopting Lightning for audio should be considered a welcome and essential advance for serious listeners.

vladsavov06-07_1236n2.0.jpg

The review makes the general case that Lightning headphones have the potential to hand crucial audio reproduction tasks back to the headphone maker, relegating the iPhone to the role of simple digital source. For high-end listening enthusiasts, this is said to be a potential game-changer, although the impact on an iPhone 7's battery life obviously remains unclear.

In purely sonic terms, The Verge notes how the Audeze audiophile cans sound "dramatically better when exploiting the all-digital connection with their so-called Cipher Lightning cable", which houses its own digital signal processor, digital-to-analog converter (DAC), and headphone amplifier.

"If all future Lightning headphones are designed as thoughtfully and in the same integrated manner as Audeze's, then we'll have nothing to fear from the future," says The Verge. "These Lightning headphones are the real deal: good enough to make me forget all about the 3.5mm jack."

audeze-lightning.0.jpg

The review continues in a breakdown of general arguments for using Lightning for serious listening enjoyment, the first being better hi-fi portability. This is based on the idea that the integrated smartphone DACs and amps which traditional 3.5mm jack headphones rely on are inferior to dedicated external components.

Given that the latter are usually bulky and inconvenient in their own right, if Lightning headphones can integrate these components into the connector cable, the trade-off should be far superior sound quality.
The second argument for Lightning is more power: the reviewer notes that the iPhone's integrated circuitry is among the best on the market, but it still lacks the power to drive high-end cans to their full potential.
The article also highlights the fact that the Audeze iOS app gives exceptional control over headphone frequency response, and saves user settings in the firmware housed in the Cipher cable.

vladsavov06-07_1241n2.0.jpg

Finally, The Verge argues that the growing trend towards more digital and less analog "make(s) the classic 3.5mm jack redundant" and positions Lightning alongside wireless protocols as the future drivers of audio innovation.
The iPhone 7 is expected to be launched in September, when we should find out just what's in store for audio enthusiasts and regular listeners alike. You can read The Verge's original article here, and be sure to catch MacRumors' video, Lightning Headphones: Are They Better or Just an Inconvenience?

Article Link: iPhone 7 and the Audiophile Case For Lightning Headphones
[doublepost=1465447386][/doublepost]Another case of Apple never having heard of the maxim: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Apple seems bent on changing the world of music just for change.
After spending hundreds of dollars on various brands of headphones including assorted high end Sennheisers, I've settled on Sony's MDR 7506s for a very reasonable price. What's wrong with 3.5? I can plug them into my Classic, my iMac, my decades old Walkman, my several audio and video receivers, my iPad, and assorted other music sources sure to come down the road.
Why would any rational person spend $800 for a headphone with such a single source, environmentally challenged, huge and possibly vulnerable interface? Is the market of users with more money than sense that large?
Apple used to be a company that made new and superbly different computers for the rest of us, not accessories just for special interests like the Beats and Dr Dre crowd.
More "Make it thinner" philosophy instead of make it work better, (or without perpetual software glitches for a change).
Have you noticed your stock price trend, Tim?
Stop selling music in iTunes after billions of profits?
See your shrink!
 
[doublepost=1465447386][/doublepost]Another case of Apple never having heard of the maxim: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Apple seems bent on changing the world of music just for change.
After spending hundreds of dollars on various brands of headphones including assorted high end Sennheisers, I've settled on Sony's MDR 7506s for a very reasonable price. What's wrong with 3.5? I can plug them into my Classic, my iMac, my decades old Walkman, my several audio and video receivers, my iPad, and assorted other music sources sure to come down the road.
Why would any rational person spend $800 for a headphone with such a single source, environmentally challenged, huge and possibly vulnerable interface? Is the market of users with more money than sense that large?
Apple used to be a company that made new and superbly different computers for the rest of us, not accessories just for special interests like the Beats and Dr Dre crowd.
More "Make it thinner" philosophy instead of make it work better, (or without perpetual software glitches for a change).
Have you noticed your stock price trend, Tim?
Stop selling music in iTunes after billions of profits?
See your shrink!
I agree 100%. I would even say they don't fix it - they break it. Today you have a wide range of choices for you listening experience. Tomorrow we are in a niche segment of audio equipment. Today you have a DAC included in you iPhone compact and easily available to any set of earphones. Tomorrow you will have to make sure you either have the right earphones or a DAC around when want to play something from your iPhone.
 
And as testers have noted, the Lightning connected headphones do in fact sound significantly better than the older 3.5mm connected headphones.

I don't think we can state this as fact yet. Judging by the video and the articles, they did not use any serious testing methods, i.e. volume-adjusted double blind testing. Audio comparisons are notoriously subject to personal bias, and they are influenced by volume. You can present people the exact same thing twice and tell them the first is a cheap stereo they are listening to while the second is expensive high-end, and they will rave about the second. (And on the converse, even staunch audiophiles usually fail to distinguish stuff like mp3 vs lossless, or cheap vs expensive cables, when they are not allowed to know what they are listening to.) Similarly, when all else is equal, people tend to prefer the audio that is slightly louder, perceiving it as clearer and better. If the lightning connection is so much louder than the 3.5mm, as the testers state, then that is a major problem for the tests right there, and volume adjustment is required before any valid comparison.
 
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