This doesn't show that Samsung is denying warranty claim on water-damaged devices. Additionally, I see no such thing in their disclaimer as follows:
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iPhone 7 Water resistant but water damage not covered - ********* at Genius Bar?
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This doesn't show that Samsung is denying warranty claim on water-damaged devices. Additionally, I see no such thing in their disclaimer as follows:
There's more than depth.You don't know that - you're guessing.
Let's not forget that there's a barometer in the iPhone. It may be as simple as a software tweak to also be able to measure water pressure. So, if your phone registers water pressure (and/or duration) exceeding IPX7, you're cooked.
(then you better have additional coverage, such as AC+).
Considering how quickly everyone ran to swimming and showering with their AW1's (when it stated in the user guide to not do that), can you blame Apple for putting that in the warranty that it's not covered? How many idiots do you think would quickly jump into their pools with their new iPhone7+ to try their hand at underwater photography? (even though the screen won't work)
Apple will be reasonable about this. People that blatantly exceed the rating of the iPhone 7's may be in for some additional charges.
Edit: Really wish people would take the phrase "waterproof" out of their vocabulary when talking about any electronics. NOTHING is. A lump of gold or lead could be said to be waterproof (impervious to water, regardless of depth).
IPXX means it can resist water in X depth for X minutes. Yes you may tell the depth by pressure. But you don't know how long I put it under water
True, but to fall within the scope of the IP rating in terms of water damage, you cannot exceed the tested depth for any amount of time. For example in the case of IPX7/IP67, you can go to 1 meter for up to 30 minutes, but not >1 meter for any length of time.
...then you missed that "So, if your phone registers water pressure (and/or duration) exceeding IPX7"
If the iPhone survives long enough to record duration...or...hell...put a component connected to the barometer to do just that, then they'll have the data they need to qualify/disqualify.
+JayLenochiniMac's point above. Any depth over 1 meter could be said to exceed the IPX7 rating.
I'm not sure you're a lawyer. I know that I'm not...
"Resistant" is an interesting wiggle-word, regardless. I remember when watch makers started moving from the term "waterproof" to water resistant." Personally, I've always taken that to mean, "If it gets wet, I have a high probability of being lucky." It was done to make clear that there was no promise being made. "Resisting" water at depths up to 1 meter does not necessarily mean it will succeed.
As they Borg will say (at some point in the Star Trek future), "Resistance is futile!"
When we're talking about manufacturing standards like IP ratings, it's generally based on a certain (high) percentage of new product samples meeting the specification, or 100% of a limited number of samples meeting the standard. It usually means the product passed the test at time of manufacture. It's less likely that the testing process requires simulated aging ("passes the test at a simulated age of 1 year," let's say).
It comes down in part to this; seals can and do fail due to manufacturing defect, age, temperature (ask NASA), normal wear-and-tear, and abnormal use (abuse). If the phone is operational, then they could get a hardware diagnostic that reports the state of liquid contact indicators, barometers, etc., but it still doesn't tell them how/why the liquids got there, and "how/why" is the bone of contention.
Determining the actual cause may require laboratory testing, and that's not something easily done when someone walks into an Apple Store in immediate need of a replacement. The staff will inspect for signs of abnormal use/wear-and-tear. They'll listen to the customer's description of what happened. They'll then make an educated judgement call.
Apple is making several bets:
* Enhanced water resistance will pay off for Apple in fewer accidental damage claims under AppleCare.
* Enhanced water resistance will result in more happy customers (fewer heartbreaking accidents), resulting in more repeat business.
* Enhanced water resistance will result in greater consumer confidence that buying an iPhone for a 10-year-old carries less risk than previously (more sales).
If building to IP67 results in fewer damaged units (and by the way, the "6" refers to dust particle intrusion), it means there will be fewer people showing up at the store, whether they claim warranty coverage, or not.
Sure, some people will treat their iPhones with less care, because they believe they can withstand greater abuse. However, most people will continue to be careful - they're already conditioned to do that. While some people think, "I can do this because I'm covered if something bad happens," there's also a (probably large) population that doesn't want something bad to happen at all. The inconvenience of loss-of-use and obtaining repairs is something to be avoided.The knowledge that the phone is water-resistant will not change their behavior.
I agree with your post. The issue is whether or not Apple will actually repair water-damaged iPhone 7/7+ under the standard warranty. Some people are taking Apple's disclaimer literally, but I think it'll just be like how they treat water-damaged Apple Watches. They also had in their disclaimer that the AW is not be to submerged, yet they've been swapping out water-damaged AWs under the standard warranty. In other words, it's most likely merely a scare tactic and Apple will not actually enforce it, just like they didn't for the Apple Watch.
Bottom line: Keep it away from all water. If there is a mishap and it does get really wet/submerged, your odds of having the phone still work are very good. If it fails, then you are SOL.
If you're prone to do bad things to your phone, AppleCare+ might be something to consider. People intentionally or wantonly getting them wet are playing with fire so to speak and likely aren't real bright.
If you're prone to do bad things to your phone, AppleCare+ might be something to consider. People intentionally or wantonly getting them wet are playing with fire so to speak and likely aren't real bright.
there are two problem in your theory,
1. water if i just want to abuse the policy, put my phone under 10cm of water for like 10 days straight? it for sure exceed the standard, but how can apple know whether i put it under for 1 minute or 10 days?
2. the barometer isn't really that sensitive or accurate. and a lot of factors can really affect it. lets get a little scientific.
you said the standard is 1 meter right? so 1 meter of water introduces 0.1 atm (which is standard atmosphere pressure at sea level). 2 meters of water introduces ~0.2 atm.
however, many of us (or most of us) doesn't live on the sea level. if you are at ~800-900 above sea level, you are only taking 0.9 atm as your 'standard'. if you are 1842m above sea level, you only have 0.8 atm. of course weather affect the air pressure as well.
therefore, if i live in a city 1842m above sea level the barometer will not be able to tell whether i went to somewhere (another city, a lab or anything) has standard 1atm air pressure, or i put it under 2 meters or water. because all it knows is, the pressure increases from 0.8 atm to 1atm
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see my post above, barometer can't really be used as an evidence, and there's no way to tell how long i put it under water, 1 minute or 10 days
We do not know if Apple will have such a sensor. It's just a hypothesis at this point. However, in the case of Apple Watch (which doesn't have any such sensor), they do have an unwritten policy of replacing water-damaged AWs under the standard warranty. This is despite their disclaimer that "submerging the AW is not recommended." They cannot prove that it did not fail within the scope of the IPX7 rating and so they replace it anyway.
As JayLenochiniMac stated - we're theorizing what's possible. No-one knows outside of Apple what the've done for countermeasures for iPhone water damage warranty claims.
But:
- you could easily keep historical data to know the relative barometric pressure in your home region (or whatever region you're in).
- water damage is a key condition to initiate a warranty claim
- the last known pressure and duration could be recorded by a protected internal barometer, with residual power from small rechargeable cell to provide necessary duration (it only has to last a little over 30 minutes).
- this being the last known condition of the device at time of failure is pretty damning in terms of evidence (along with all of the liquid "tattletale" indicators inside the housing).
i've thought about historical data, but there's still some problems.
first, if i travel on an airplane, and turn off my phone, then there will be no 'historical' data, so there will be a sudden pressure change.
or, like i mentioned above, a lab. you can easily walk into a lab where there's standard ATM or just any pressure regulated labs. a lot of labs have higher air pressure than outside to prevent particles coming in.
what if my surrounding is 0.8atm, i walk into my workplace which is a lab has 1atm, and i immediately accidentally dropped my iPhone underwater 2cm, what the barometer will say? 2cm or 2.02m?
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yeah, i believe apple said it's not covered by warranty just as a 'ultimately we have the right to deny replacing it for you'. but in practice? i don't know but i doubt they'll follow this very much.
but who knows.
This is actually pretty simple....
Apple advertises water resistance rating of IPxy. That means they have the data to justify that rating for advertising which is meant to entice you to buy. They can also warranty whatever they want. You can decide to buy the product or not. If you do and it fails from being "wet", you have the right to sue apple for a replacement. They will come to court with their data to justify the rating and their decision not to honor the warranty. You must come with evidence that you did not exceed that rating. A judge will decide. The burden of proof is on you not apple.
Apple advertises water resistance rating of IPxy. That means they have the data to justify that rating for advertising which is meant to entice you to buy. They can also warranty whatever they want. You can decide to buy the product or not. If you do and it fails from being "wet", you have the right to sue apple for a replacement. They will come to court with their data to justify the rating and their decision not to honor the warranty. You must come with evidence that you did not exceed that rating. A judge will decide. The burden of proof is on you not apple.
Don't think it's that simple. Apple has to prove that it did not fail within the scope of the IP67 rating. Otherwise, it's misleading advertising. Heck, they've been sued over way more trivial things that have no standing like millions of colors. The IP rating system is an internationally accepted legal standard, so the burden of proof is on Apple.
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Heh. Who's to say that they can't have NVRAM for this?
Ooh - maybe they make the entire secure enclave ATM20 resistant? The key is - water incursion / damage along with the data from the barometric sensor. The two work together to substantiate that the last actions of the phone (which resulted in water damage) resulted with indications the water rating of the phone was exceeded. Heh...2cm is within the rating depth-wise anyways - or, did you plan on leaving it in that puddle for one of the neighbourhood kids to pick it up?
Heh...2cm is within the rating depth-wise anyways - or, did you plan on leaving it in that puddle for one of the neighbourhood kids to pick it up?
It'd still be outside the scope of the IP67 rating if left in for longer than 30 minutes. Key word is "up to" for both depth and duration. However, I bet nothing will happen even if left in 2cm for a week. People are way harder with the Apple Watch, going far beyond 1 meter for 30 minutes, and the vast majority of them have emerged unscathed so far. It's the defective ones that seem to croak even with minimal exposure to water.
Agreed. I really don't anticipate the water resistance in the iPhone 7 to come close to how well they did it in AW1, but I think it's pretty much a given it's the depth/pressure that they're going to have to exceed to cause damage.
No they don't and yes they have been sued over trivial things. The burden of proof is not on apple as to what you did with your phone. They just need to tell you to go away and the next move is yours. I don't think you know how the legal system works.
Oh really. Care to explain to me why they've been swapping out water-damaged AWs under the standard warranty?
It's not because they legally had too. The "why" is a better question for apple. It could be there isn't a place for a moisture sensor in the watch or the number is small enough as to not bother with the cost of warranty. Whatever the reason, I doubt they view the phone the same way.
Yes, Apple can legally advertise a feature and keep it out of the scope of the warranty if the fact that it falls outside of the scope of the warranty is advertised as well (which it is on the website). People sell products all the time that have no warranty out of the gate or have limited warranties. Warranties are basically a feature of the product. The only time Apple would be held to honor a water damage warranty claim would be if Apple did not specifically exclude it from its warranty coverage at time of purchase (like warranties on cars, there is so much not covered on a car's warranty).
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Because the standard warranty of the Apple Watch doesn't specifically exclude Water Damage and since its IPx7 rating is an advertised feature of the product, it would be included unless specifically excluded.
False. Watch manufacturers are legally obligated to replace water-damaged watches that are marked water resistance to a specific IP rating. They cannot objectively rate a watch to an IP standard and deny a warranty claim that falls within the scope of the IP rating.
Scratch- and shatter-resistance is different because they're not defined to a specific standard and hence they're not legally obligated to replace shattered iPhones.
It was mentioned that the water proofing and Dust proofing capabilities degrade over time. Guess they are covering themselves.
I would like to direct everyone to this page
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0252-warranties
Warranties are not required by law. Straight from the Federal Trade Commission.
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0252-warranties
Warranties are not required by law. Straight from the Federal Trade Commission.