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Disadvabtage being you need to throw the device away once it becomes outdated or if a part fails when you are out of warranty. One of my PCs is a Dell Studio XPS 8000 from 2009 and I upgraded RAM and CPU to 16GB and a i7 4770 and it blows away the current Macs in sheer power and flexibility. I even modded the case to fit larger mobos
I agree.

Every decision has its share of pros and cons. You will not find a laptop build that will make everyone happy.

At the end of the day, we are trusting Apple to make the right compromises for us, and I guess that for quite a few people, Apple hasn't (for them). But i believe that for an even larger segment of users, Apple has made the right design choices (for these people).

Perhaps the critics here do have a valid argument, but they aren't necessarily representative of Apple's user base as a hold, and we can't allow their words to hold all the weight, nor should their preferences alone dictate what products Apple can release.

Also fyi a thin and light iMac from 2017 doesn't hold a candle to my Dell desktop from 2009. How's that for longetivity?
Does your Dell desktop also look as sleek as the iMac, or take up as little space, or is as quiet to use?

There's a lot that goes into determining the user experience offered by a computer beyond just hardware specs alone.

Because Chromebooks have zero useful applications. Its a glorified web browser
Which is quite enough for schools.

As a teacher in a school with a 1-to-1 computing initiative, most of our laptop use revolves around web apps. Google services comprise a large bulk (every student has a gmail account, which in turn promotes the use of google docs, drive, classroom, even maps). More than enough for collaborative group work.

We use a variety of web apps such as Popplet, Wordpress, Koobits, ClassDojo, Storybird etc, but the common theme here is that all these services are accessible through the browser. They are free, and don't require the installation of any software, and so is very convenient to use.

It's actually pretty amazing what you can achieve with a browser these days.
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This is the only thing you can say, and actually, I agree with you. But, it is not worth the cost, meaning price, feature loss and performance loss.
To you.

Whether it's worth it or not is ultimately up to the individual user to decide, not for any one person to decide on behalf of everyone else.

On a side note, is anyone having problems accessing Macrumours on Tapatalk? It's gone from my app and I can't seem to log back in. Really miss push notifications on replies.
 
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So back to your original comment on being a "Core fan", you're wrong, because it goes way beyond being a core fan anymore. Maybe a core fan was an appropriate response years ago, but in today's tech world and Apple, it's affected more than just the Core Fan.

I was only talking about the source of disappointed posts in THIS FORUM. I thought that was clear from my lead in phrase "around here".

I don't think negative posts here in this forum are from paid trolls or from disappointed enterprise buyers. I think they're more from non-corporate core fans.

Outside of the forum, I think you have good points about Apple losing purchases from companies, schools, etc.
 
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Whether it's worth it or not is ultimately up to the individual user to decide, not for any one person to decide on behalf of everyone else.
We agree on this.

For casual users that like the thinness and do not care about soldered parts or other performance compromises, there was already a great Apple laptop for them, the MBA. It is a shame that Apple is discontinuing it.
 
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We agree on this.

For casual users that like the thinness and do not care about soldered parts or other performance compromises, there was already a great Apple laptop for them, the MBA. It is a shame that Apple is discontinuing it.
That seems to be what the MacBook and MacBook Pros are for.

The MacBook is there for unparalleled portability (if you are willing to pay the ultimate price), while the 13" MacBook pro is basically the "real" retina MBA. Give it another year or two and we should see their prices come down to more sane levels as Apple begins to reap economies of scale from their manufacturing plants (so I hope). Core M should also improve to the point where we get decent performance on the MacBook, and newer processors should eventually allow for the 32gb ram so many users here seem to be clamouring for.

It's like flashes of the original MBA all over again. A proof of concept that was way beyond its time and really needed more time and the right parts to make it a reality. Time will solve a lot of things.
 
The gist is this. A thinner and lighter product benefits everyone. Upgradable parts benefits only power users who will actually use this feature.

Yes, and true "power users" don't value lighter/thinner as much as performance/expandability. Apple is building products it is marketing as targeting power users, but the design is really focused on the consumer segment.

The challenge is finding the right compromise that appeals to as many people as possible, without necessarily disadvantaging those who don't need those features.

No. The point is that there need to have different models with a variety of characteristics that fit different users. There is no "one size fits all if we just have the right balance" here. There are users that need very high performance laptops and there are users that only need a device that has a little more performance than a top iPad, but want a keyboard, trackpad, etc. The super-thin design does not work for the high performance market segment because cooling needs to the hardware prevent a thin design. Durability also suffers from thinness and material choice/finish. That's physics -- and Apple is not above the laws of science (even if they are treated like Gods by some people).

I continue to maintain that the Apple of today is no different from the Apple of yesteryear. They want to make great products, and to them, a thinner and lighter product is a better product.

As a publically traded company, they are actually supposed to be creating products that people want, to grow as a business. Alienating users is going to reduce the company's value.

The ram isn't soldered on to screw its customers over. It's simply to enable a thinner, lighter design.

No one was complaining the previous MacBook Pro was too thick. In fact, there were complaining about it being too thin in the old version, too. The thinner, lighter design does not perceptibly add to customer value, but the loss of upgradable RAM has a very clear downside for the consumer. Considering the very high prices Apple charges for extra RAM on configurations, you're really naive to think this does not have a financial motivation.

Whether you agree with Apple or not is immaterial. That's how Apple has always been. They forge ahead with what they believe in regardless of what people say, and let their sales results speak for themselves.

So you're agreeing that Apple is ignoring what their customers want and letting their fortunes fall where they will.

So it's not that the needs of you power users matter less, but that you are fighting with the needs of a wider customer base which might matter more.

It's not possible to meet the needs to the entire customer base in a single machine, period. At this point, Apple's lineup lacks the diversity needed to meet all these segments' needs. If Apple doesn't want to produce machines with the variety needed to do so, they need to allow people to run OSX on hardware by companies who will.
 
Yes, and true "power users" don't value lighter/thinner as much as performance/expandability. Apple is building products it is marketing as targeting power users, but the design is really focused on the consumer segment.



No. The point is that there need to have different models with a variety of characteristics that fit different users. There is no "one size fits all if we just have the right balance" here. There are users that need very high performance laptops and there are users that only need a device that has a little more performance than a top iPad, but want a keyboard, trackpad, etc. The super-thin design does not work for the high performance market segment because cooling needs to the hardware prevent a thin design. Durability also suffers from thinness and material choice/finish. That's physics -- and Apple is not above the laws of science (even if they are treated like Gods by some people).



As a publically traded company, they are actually supposed to be creating products that people want, to grow as a business. Alienating users is going to reduce the company's value.



No one was complaining the previous MacBook Pro was too thick. In fact, there were complaining about it being too thin in the old version, too. The thinner, lighter design does not perceptibly add to customer value, but the loss of upgradable RAM has a very clear downside for the consumer. Considering the very high prices Apple charges for extra RAM on configurations, you're really naive to think this does not have a financial motivation.



So you're agreeing that Apple is ignoring what their customers want and letting their fortunes fall where they will.



It's not possible to meet the needs to the entire customer base in a single machine, period. At this point, Apple's lineup lacks the diversity needed to meet all these segments' needs. If Apple doesn't want to produce machines with the variety needed to do so, they need to allow people to run OSX on hardware by companies who will.
Actually Apple doesn't have to do anything and you in turn font have to buy apples products. If they annoy enough customers and lose revenue they will be a tell, if they keep going well that's another tell. I'm sure Apple has gone its homework though, not everybody will be happy at the same time.
 
I'm sorry, what innovative thing has any cell phone company done in the past four years? It's not just apple, it's everyone. If you've been impressed, you're easily impressed.
LG came out with the V20 flagship several months ago and <drumroll> it has a REMOVABLE battery! If not innovative it is certainly unique in today's smartphone offerings.
 
Yes, and true "power users" don't value lighter/thinner as much as performance/expandability. Apple is building products it is marketing as targeting power users, but the design is really focused on the consumer segment.

I can't argue with that.

Though I would add that by doing so, Apple could be trying to "enable" the consumer segment by offering them access to "pro hardware" without the usual shortcomings.

For example, I might want a 15" MBP for the horsepower, but be discouraged by the bulk and the weight, and this in turn causes me to compromise by getting a MBA or 13" MBP. It's not that I don't want / need better specs, but that there are also other features which I deem equally important, such as portability.

I have lifted the 2016 15" MBP in person and the weight is noticeably lighter than the 2015 version. Enough that I personally wouldn't mind carrying the former around on a daily basis.

Not at all unlike how the Apple Pencil allows iPad Pro users to perform tasks previously limited to those with specialised hardware like the Wacom tablet.

What Apple is doing here is democratising technology and making more readily accessible to the masses, and I think this is something that isn't being acknowledged enough.

No. The point is that there need to have different models with a variety of characteristics that fit different users. There is no "one size fits all if we just have the right balance" here. There are users that need very high performance laptops and there are users that only need a device that has a little more performance than a top iPad, but want a keyboard, trackpad, etc. The super-thin design does not work for the high performance market segment because cooling needs to the hardware prevent a thin design. Durability also suffers from thinness and material choice/finish. That's physics -- and Apple is not above the laws of science (even if they are treated like Gods by some people).

I agree with you. It's impossible to have a 1-size-fits-all model which meets the needs of every customer out there.

But the downside to having so many different laptop offerings is that you then spread yourselves too thinly maintaining so many different devices, as well as taxing your supply chain and making it more challenging to accurately forecast demand and allocate resources effectively.

Neither extreme is desirable, and again, the challenge is in finding an acceptable middle ground.

As a publically traded company, they are actually supposed to be creating products that people want, to grow as a business. Alienating users is going to reduce the company's value.

There is also a saying - you fire your worst customers, because the money they bring in may not be worth the effort it takes to serve them.

The resources involved in creating a custom MacBook Pro rig specifically targeted at "pro" consumers simply might not be worth the sales it generates. Just look at the Mac Pro. At the end of the day, Apple might be better off channeling these resources into other departments which show promise of better growth and profits.

No one was complaining the previous MacBook Pro was too thick. In fact, there were complaining about it being too thin in the old version, too. The thinner, lighter design does not perceptibly add to customer value, but the loss of upgradable RAM has a very clear downside for the consumer. Considering the very high prices Apple charges for extra RAM on configurations, you're really naive to think this does not have a financial motivation.
Maybe there is a financial motivation here. I don't think it's Apple primary motivation either way.

I didn't think the 4s was too thick and heavy either. But spend a few days with the 5s and the 4s suddenly feels so much bulkier and heavier. I am used to the weight of my 6S+, but then I pick up my 5s on occasion and go "Whoa. It barely weighs a thing." It's all about expectations and redefining the new normal.

So you're agreeing that Apple is ignoring what their customers want and letting their fortunes fall where they will.

And look where that has gotten Apple so far.

Every product release has always been marred with self-styled Apple loyalists criticising Apple for apparently forgetting their roots and ignoring their user base.

People vilified the iPod for being another MP3 player. The iPhone for not having a keyboard. The iPad for running iOS instead of macOS. The MBA for ditching the cd drive.

People adapted. The market adapted. Product improvements were made as and when the technology became feasible. Apple prospered while making the competition look like utter morons in the process.

And maybe this time will be the same and maybe it will be different. But Apple evidently has history on its side.

It's not possible to meet the needs to the entire customer base in a single machine, period. At this point, Apple's lineup lacks the diversity needed to meet all these segments' needs. If Apple doesn't want to produce machines with the variety needed to do so, they need to allow people to run OSX on hardware by companies who will.

"Need" is a pretty strong word here. There is nothing Apple "needs" to do here. That is the power, and the curse of being in the Apple ecosystem.
 
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