iPhone App Sideloading Coming to Users in the EU in First Half of 2024

[mrochester]

If we're talking about electronic devices, then yes. I expect to be able to run Android on my Switch just as I expect to be able to install apps on iOS.
Remember the EU doesn't care about that "you don't ackshually own the device" crap.

Oh that's so true

I don’t just mean electronic devices, I mean with any product or service, such as not being permitted to dance on the tables in a restaurant. Dancing on tables is not illegal therefore the restaurant should have no right to prevent you from doing so. The concept that you should be able to do whatever you like, however you like, as long as it’s not illegal, because you want to, is deeply narcissistic to me.

But maybe that’s just me; I don’t expect everyone and everything to bend to my will.

 

[Samplasion]

I don’t just mean electronic devices, I mean with any product or service, such as not being permitted to dance on the tables in a restaurant. Dancing on tables is not illegal therefore the restaurant should have no right to prevent you from doing so. The concept that you should be able to do whatever you like, however you like, as long as it’s not illegal, because you want to, is deeply narcissistic to me.

In that case, you're putting words into my mouth I have never said.

 

[BaldiMac]

Actually, you're the one forcing others to bend to your will.

No, I'm not. We're do you get this from?

I just expect Apple to let *me* do what *I* want.

No, you want Apple to be forced to do what you want. You want people to be forced to spend time and money to create something that you want. Again, so you can avoid paying them for their work.

You could already do whatever you want as long as you don't interfere with their property rights.

 

[mrochester]

In that case, you're putting words into my mouth I have never said.

You’re the one who said you feel entitled to install Android on a switch, so you’ve clearly got some sense of entitlement going on. I don’t think people who feel that sense of entitlement recognise it in themselves.

 

[Analog Kid]

This needs putting to bed because its not a fair arguement.

What's not fair is legislating everything to be the same just because you don't like the differences.

Android lacks hundreds of premium apps you can only get on iOS, from classic games like Tinywings and Trism to productivity apps like Ulysses and Procreate. The two platforms do not share software parity.

Have you thought about why, and whether they'll be disincentivized by this change?

That said, you're not entirely right:
https://apkpure.com/tiny-wings/spagenpro.playerstore.tinywings
https://procreate.en.softonic.com/android

I'm sure there are similar apps to the other two, and plenty of excellent Android apps waiting to be found. If alternate app stores spur more competition and are better for developers and users, then there must be.

Telling someone to buy an Android device because Apple operate a hypocritical stance on their mobile OS (whilst keeping their desktop one open for outside business) is like telling someone to move to another country because they dislike their neighbours.

Sorry, claims of hypocrisy are misplaced (everything need not follow one model), and I can't map the analogy to this situation at all... Is the problem that you don't like your neighbors (ie. the rest of us users) or you don't like the nations constitution?

 

[Samplasion]

No, I'm not. We're do you get this from?

I get this from your fervent support for the "screw those who want to sideload" group.

No, you want Apple to be forced to do what you want. You want people to be forced to spend time and money to create something that you want. Again, so you can avoid paying them for their work.

You could already do whatever you want as long as you don't interfere with their property rights.

How is being able to install my own IPAs forcing anyone to do anything?
Yes, but then again, property rights in the EU clearly state the device and everything that runs on it are mine.

You’re the one who said you feel entitled to install Android on a switch, so you’ve clearly got some sense of entitlement going on.

1. You said that before I brought it up so nice try, but no.
2. I can already install Android on my Switch, it's not a crazy utopia (and in fact I have, briefly, run that)
3. Are you saying I could call you entitled for wanting your house keys back if someone steals them and tells you you can't enter? Because the line of thinking seems to be about the same.

the rest of us users

The "all users vs. the 10 people who want to sideload" rethoric is so unverified. Possibly untrue.

 

[deckard666]

Can the Eu open up my switch and Ps4 and Xbox to side loading too please ? Oh and my Tesla too..

 

[mrochester]

I get this from your fervent support for the "screw those who want to sideload" group.

How is being able to install my own IPAs forcing anyone to do anything?
Yes, but then again, property rights in the EU clearly state the device and everything that runs on it are mine.

1. You said that before I brought it up so nice try, but no.
2. I can already install Android on my Switch, it's not a crazy utopia (and in fact I have, briefly, run that)
3. Are you saying I could call you entitled for wanting your house keys back if someone steals them and tells you you can't enter? Because the line of thinking seems to be about the same.

The "all users vs. the 10 people who want to sideload" rethoric is so unverified. Possibly untrue.

No one is stopping you from buying an Android phone and sideloading to your hearts content.

We know from Android that the vast majority of users have no interest in side loading.

You need to fit around the product, not the other way around.

 

[Samplasion]

No one is stopping you from buying an Android phone and sideloading to your hearts content.

We know from Android that the vast majority of users have no interest in side loading.

As others in this thread have already pointed out, that's a false equivalency.

 

[Zest28]

Can I sideload a business in the EU free from any tax and regulations?

 

[mrochester]

As others in this thread have already pointed out, that's a false equivalency.

I disagree. It’s the option that better fits your needs. You should exercise your consumer right to buy a different product that more closely matches your needs.

 

[Samplasion]

I disagree. It’s the option that better fits your needs. You should exercise your consumer right to buy a different product that more closely matches your needs.

Or I can get Apple to finally excercise my rights as a European consumer and let me sideload apps.
Why do you think that's not my right as the rightful owner of an electronic device?

 

[mrochester]

Or I can get Apple to finally excercise my rights as a European consumer and let me sideload apps.
Why do you think that's not my right as the rightful owner of an electronic device?

Because it wasnt until someone created a law to make it so. There’s a difference between rights and wants.

 

[Samplasion]

Because it wasnt until someone created a law to make it so.

It still was, it just wasn't enforced.
Edit: besides, since somebody made a law to make it a right, it means that now it is a right.

 

[BaldiMac]

I get this from your fervent support for the "screw those who want to sideload" group.

Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean that I support forcing them to do anything. What are you talking about?!?

How is being able to install my own IPAs forcing anyone to do anything?

Are you unaware that Apple will need to make changes to their software to support the sideloading requirements?!?!

Yes, but then again, property rights in the EU clearly state the device and everything that runs on it are mine.

Great! Do what you want with it as allowed by copyright law in the EU.

 

[Samplasion]

Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean that I support forcing them to do anything. What are you talking about?!?

Not in a vacuum, no. But since this is a specific topic which is pretty cut-and-dry, you supporting the "anti-sideload cause" - let's call it that - *is* an indirect statement that you don't want people to sideload.

Are you unaware that Apple will need to make changes to their software to support the sideloading requirements?!?!

The changes they'll have to make are pretty minor. Pretty much all of the infrastructure required to support installing apps, like, at all is there. They just need to stop enforcing the 7-day rule.

Software is still subject to copyright law in the EU.

That has nothing to do with sideloading.

 

[Analog Kid]

Can I sideload a business in the EU free from any tax and regulations?

You used to be able to through the Irish BusinessStore, but it turns out the rest of the EU didn't like competition among BStores.

 

[webkit]

When we respond and know what’s going to happen (apps will move to third party stores, it’s 100% guaranteed), we are just told to suck it up, vote with our wallet or use a different app.

Many apps may become available in alternative app stores but that doesn't mean they won’t also remain on Apple’s App Store. The App Store is still going to bring in a lot of traffic/exposure and therefore developers will still want to be there, as well as other places. Do you really feel the App Store is so bad that developers won't continue to use it after alternatives are available?

But you guys that want side loading don’t just suck it up and move to Android. It’s the same old same old “my way” attitude.

Some people want sideloading but also want other features of iPhones and would prefer to be able to continue to use those features while also being able to choose to sideload, use alternative app stores, etc. Some simply don't like Android for whatever reasons.

 

[webkit]

It’s easy peasy to buy an android. That’s voting with your $$$.

And if Apple didn't put restrictions on doing so, it could be even easier peasier to sideload or buy an app from an alternative app store but Apple doesn’t let iPhone users vote with their $$$ to do so.

 

[BaldiMac]

Not in a vacuum, no. But since this is a specific topic which is pretty cut-and-dry, you supporting the "anti-sideload cause" - let's call it that - *is* an indirect statement that you don't want people to sideload.

Please stop putting words in my mouth that are the exact opposite of what I said. I responded at the start of this conversation clearly and unequivocally that I do not support forcing people not to sideload. I'm not for forcing anyone not to sideload legal apps. You can sideload legal apps all you want on platforms that support sideloading!

The changes they'll have to make are pretty minor. Pretty much all of the infrastructure required to support installing apps, like, at all is there. They just need to stop enforcing the 7-day rule.

Ignoring your opinion on the complexity of the task, at least you acknowledge the reality that the legislation forces people to modify the software.

That has nothing to do with sideloading.

You caught me before I modified the post to be clearer. As I said, do what you want with it as allowed by copyright law in the EU.

 

[Samplasion]

Please stop putting words in my mouth that are the exact opposite of what I said. I responded at the start of this conversation clearly and unequivocally that I do not support forcing people not to sideload. I'm not for forcing anyone not to sideload legal apps. You can sideload legal apps all you want on platforms that support sideloading!

Then you're missing the entire underlying assumption in this 25-page long thread. We're talking about i(Pad)OS.

Ignoring your opinion on the complexity of the task, at least you acknowledge the reality that the legislation forces people to modify the software.

Well, to be fair Apple has the choice to either adapt or lose out on some serious $$$ from the European market.

You caught me before I modified the post to be clearer. As I said, do what you want with it as allowed by copyright law in the EU.

OK, that still has very little to do with the practice of installing packaged binaries onto an operating system. Unless you're saying that all software outside the App Store is illegal which, just, wow.

 

[BaldiMac]

Then you're missing the entire underlying assumption in this 25-page long thread. We're talking about i(Pad)OS.

No, I'm not. I just don't consider not providing a feature to be forcing other people to do something. Are you forcing me to walk because you won't give me a car?

Well, to be fair Apple has the choice to either adapt or lose out on some serious $$$ from the European market.

Sure. As we discussed, they are being forced under threat.

OK, that still has very little to do with the practice of installing packaged binaries onto an operating system. Unless you're saying that all software outside the App Store is illegal which, just, wow.

I didn't say anything of the sort. You said you should be able to do what you want because you own the phone and everything on it. I agreed that you should be able to do what you want as allowed by copyright law in the EU.

Are you saying your original state has "very little to do" with the topic? If so, why bring it up?

 

[Samplasion]

No, I'm not. I just don't consider not providing a feature to be forcing other people to do something.

It depends on the feature. Being able to extract the subject of photos is substantially different from being able to install software.

I didn't say anything of the sort. You said you should be able to do what you want because you own the phone and everything on it. I agreed that you should be able to do what you want as allowed by copyright law in the EU.

Are you saying your original state has "very little to do" with the topic? If so, why bring it up?

You're misrepresenting your point. You said you think features should be subject to copyright laws but that's a given.
I said I should be able to do what I want in relation to property rights, which are different in the EU and in the US. Given the context of sideloading, that's on topic.

 

[BaldiMac]

It depends on the feature. Being able to extract the subject of photos is substantially different from being able to install software.

Not really. It's a informed choice.

You're misrepresenting your point. You said you think features should be subject to copyright laws but that's a given.
I said I should be able to do what I want in relation to property rights, which are different in the EU and in the US. Given the context of sideloading, that's on topic.

You brought it up! I agreed. What's the problem other than the fact that you now realize that your point about property rights doesn't actually get you what you want? You still need to force Apple to make changes.

 

[jlc1978]

I think they will if it means being able to save money and/or gives them more control over the marketing and distribution of their app(s).

I would guess the task of tracking compliance if they get wide distribution, not to mention making payments, will be too troublesome for smaller developers. In addition, the alternative stores are likely to charge, and have a smaller base then Apple to spread out costs and may wind up costing developers the same in the end. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I suspect a few major players will have stores up becasue they can afford a small or no margin since that is not a major revenue stream and smaller ones will come and go.

Good gosh! Trying to find a post here that isn't a reply is like finding a needle in a desert!

Not every post is a reply...

The Cook era has been defined by the removal of most of these features and I have no doubt that if Apple could get away with it they would remove manual installations from MacOS in favour of the App Store (and their 30% cut) and roll off some nonsense about it being better for security and you'd get a whole raft of people on here defending them for it. A few years later the EU would mandate them to undo the move and there would be even more uproar.

Steve started it with the iPhone, and even early Macs were designed not to be easily upgradable by a consumer. Steve was never big on giving users the opportunity to modify what he felt was perfect.

I expect big players to lead the exit. Meta because of privacy restrictions. Google will withdraw to a now cross platform Play Store for the same reasons. Microsoft and Adobe because they have the resources and an interest in controlling the brand with a desire to present themselves front and center. Epic because the world revolves around them, and Steam because they have a viable distribution platform already. Netflix and the streamers unless they're happy enough with the result of the anti-steering decision from the Epic case-- they'd certainly rather not have to run their own app distribution if they can do it all through others for free.

I agree, with the caveat that once Apple allows in app third party payment's they will find a new way to get a cut of revenue, if only adding fees so apps that are subscription based have to pay to be on the App Store, the digital version of slotting fees. I doubt Apple will simply give developers a free ride; resulting in more up front and ongoing costs instead of a developer fee and no other charges until you make a sale.

In the end, this could hurt smaller developers with higher up front costs, possible increase piracy and drive them to Android's free but need subscription/IAP to get more features to protect their revenue stream.