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This is a sincere question...when many of us say "just buy an Android device then" many of you seem offended. I don't understand why. Perhaps you could explain it to me. Android has chosen a business model that seems to be open in the very way that many of you who support the DMA want. You want to tinker, play, load, pirate, etc, and Android, with it's many many device vendors and open-source software, seems perfectly suited to you.

I want my phone and its OS to be highly curated. I want the experience among my computing devices to be maximally compatible, with an eye toward ease of use. If there is a security update, I want the OS to be able to push that out to my devices quickly and seamlessly. I want the software I am loading on my devices to be well vetted, such that I don't have to worry about vetting them. Apple, while not perfect, is the only option I have of a company that is fulfilling what I want and how I want to operate in a digital, connected world. I used to tinker with code and download all sorts of strange programs on my Mac in the early days, but have found it to simply not be worth the hassle. I'd be HAPPY if Apple locked the Mac down like the iPhone is locked down.

The DMA is threatening the type of digital lifestyle I want. It is opening a door that I want closed in the ecosystem I have freely chosen. IF this were the only option, perhaps I might better understand the DMA. But since IOS is a minority player in the EU market of smartphone OS's and since there is an Eco System that is open in exactly the same way many of you say you want, why is it offensive that we say "so buy Android." Android IS what you say you want.

As I see it, I'm supporting your right to choose the eco system you desire. You're trying to deny me the right to choose the eco system I desire.

Help me understand your perspective here.

The differences between the two major mobile operating systems (Android and iOS) are more than just sideloading and alternative app store availability. Some people want the option to be able to sideload and/or use alternative app stores but also may prefer using Pages and/or Numbers and/or Keynote and/or Safari and/or iMessage and/or other features and capabilities of iPhones that Android phones don’t have. Some prefer Apple products overall for "image" (considered more upscale) reasons. Some don't like Android because of its connection to Google and/or other reasons. And so on. The solution here is not as simple or simplistic as saying, just pick Android.

Introducing sideloading and alternative app stores gives iPhone users more choices in acquiring apps but doesn’t necessarily prevent users from still getting apps from Apple’s App Store, choosing not to sideload, etc.
 
The thing is that the iOS App Store is home to far less scams than the google play store at least, and even then, those apps tend to be relegated to attempting to get users to sign up for expensive subscriptions (which can be monitored and terminated via the app store's subscription tab), plus Apple has the ability to remove them at a moment's notice.

I don't believe anyone can argue that a centrally managed App Store is any less secure than simply allowing users to download any app they want from any source.
I do agree and it’s kind of irrefutable fact. But it seems to boil down to fundamental principles in the culture, in the same way how the response to free healthcare tends to be.

The U.S. antitrust law reflects the market-oriented and consumer-centric approach of the American culture, which tends to prioritize personal freedom and choice over collective welfare and equality.
The EU culture values freedom as a means to achieve collective welfare and equality, while the U.S. culture values freedom as an end in itself. The EU culture values freedom as a social and economic condition, while the U.S. culture values freedom as a political and legal status. The EU culture values freedom as a shared and balanced concept, while the U.S. culture values freedom as an individual and absolute concept.
I think what often goes unacknowledged in discussions like this are the merits of the iOS App Store. A lot of people like to complain about the 30% cut, but they don't recognise the role the app store plays in growing the overall pie for everybody. It's safe and secure for customers to purchase apps via iTunes (since developers never get our payment details), piracy is less rampant (because you can't sideload), which in turn translates to users buying more apps and more sales for the developer.

Whether Apple's approach is heavy-handed or not, one cannot deny that they have solved a lot of the issues with purchasing things online by greatly reducing the friction, and increasing the trust involved in such transactions from having Apple act as an intermediary. Things like this are rarely ever right or wrong in an absolute sense, but rather, a measure of tradeoffs. How does one decide whether the utility of being able to sideload apps for a small group of more tech-savvy users is worth more than say, the ability to prevent a larger populace of less tech-savvy users from being potentially scammed of their life savings?

Because every response I have seen so far in this (and other similar threads) basically boils down to - that is their problem, not mine. And maybe it's a fair thing to say, because that's the truth. It really isn't your problem, or mine, or anyone else but Apple's.
Now that I have been digging it shows that just the fundamental legal framework and principle produces completely different viewpoints and interpretations
I will put information in quotes that is summarising things I have learned

The EU perspective, on the other hand, is based on the ordoliberal school of thought, which emphasizes the protection of market structure and the preservation of economic freedom for all market participants.
The U.S. culture tends to view freedom as an individual and negative concept, meaning that freedom is the absence of interference or coercion from others, especially from the government.

The U.S. culture emphasizes the freedom of choice, the freedom of speech, and the freedom of the market, as well as the rights and responsibilities of the individual. The U.S. culture values self-reliance, autonomy, and competition, and believes that the best way to achieve freedom is to limit the role of the state and to promote the free market.

The EU culture tends to view freedom as a collective and positive concept, meaning that freedom is the ability and opportunity to participate and contribute to the society, as well as to enjoy the benefits of the social and economic system. The EU culture emphasizes the freedom of association, the freedom of movement, and the freedom of the environment, as well as the rights and responsibilities of the community. The EU culture values cooperation, solidarity, and diversity, and believes that the best way to achieve freedom is to enhance the role of the state and to regulate the market.

“freedom is a collective positive concept” and “freedom is an individual negative concept” are:

  • The former views freedom as a social and positive concept, while the latter views freedom as an individual and negative concept.
  • The former views freedom as the abilityto participate in the social and political life of the community, while the latter views freedom as the absence of interference or coercion from others.
  • The former views freedom as requiring the provision of opportunities and the promotion of equality, while the latter views freedom as requiring the limitation of the role of the state and the promotion of the free market.
  • The former views freedom as a collective and relative concept, while the latter views freedom as an individual and absolute concept.
  • The former views freedom as a dynamic and interdependent concept, while the latter views freedom as a static and isolated concept.
  • The former views freedom as an active and participatory concept, while the latter views freedom as a passive and isolated concept.
  • The former views freedom as a right and a duty, while the latter views freedom as a right and a privilege.
Summary of the main differences between them:

- The ordoliberal school of thought emerged in Germany in the 1930s and 1940s as a reaction to the failures of laissez-faire capitalism and the rise of totalitarianism. The ordoliberals advocated for a strong and independent state that would ensure a competitive market order based on the rule of law, social justice, and human dignity. The ordoliberals believed that competition was not a natural outcome of market forces, but a normative value that required constant protection and regulation by the state. The ordoliberals also emphasized the importance of preserving economic freedom and autonomy for all market participants, especially small and medium-sized enterprises, consumers, and workers. The ordoliberals influenced the development of German and European competition law, which aims to prevent market distortions, abuses of dominance, and unfair trade practices that may harm the market structure and the economic welfare of society¹².

- The economic theory of the Chicago School emerged in the United States in the 1950s and 1960s as a response to the interventionist and welfare-oriented policies of the New Deal and the Keynesian era. The Chicago School adopted a neoclassical and positivist approach to economics, which relied on mathematical models, empirical evidence, and rational choice theory to analyze market behavior and outcomes. The Chicago School assumed that markets were generally efficient and self-correcting, and that competition was a dynamic and evolutionary process that enhanced consumer welfare and social efficiency. The Chicago School argued that most forms of government regulation and intervention were unnecessary and harmful, as they created market distortions, rent-seeking, and deadweight losses. The Chicago School influenced the development of U.S. antitrust law, which focuses on the effects of market conduct on consumer welfare and efficiency, and adopts a rule of reason analysis that balances the pro- and anti-competitive effects of business practices³⁴.


(1) “Old Chicago” and Freiburg: Why Ordoliberalism Was No ... - ProMarket. https://www.promarket.org/2021/07/25/chicago-freiburg-ordoliberalism-neoliberalism-germany/.
(2) Ordoliberalism and the Freiburg School - Oxford Academic. https://academic.oup.com/book/8471/chapter/154294254.
(3) The Harvard and Chicago Schools: Two Ways of Studying Barriers to Entry .... https://www.cambridge.org/core/book...ers-to-entry/67CED770EACDEC3A6C7D680512E6A745.
(4) book: Ordoliberalism and the Freiburg School. https://doi.org/10.1093/acprof:osobl/9780199782796.003.0008
 
And how do you know they aren’t?
Because I read the DMA.

Google have been targeted through court and by the legislation.
Great! My problem is with certain regulations in the DMA, not other EU regulations and legal actions.

It applies to both platforms equally, as it was said countless times in this thread.
Bob has a red ball and Mary has a green ball. If I make red balls illegal, that certainly doesn't apply equally.

Also, iOS market share understood as actively used devices, not just sales, is likely higher at around 35%. And among politicians and (EU)bureaucrats, the share is probably even higher. They are well paid and can afford to buy iPhones ;).
Market share and user base are two different things.
 
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Bob has a red ball and Mary has a green ball. If I make red balls illegal, that certainly doesn't apply equally.
Google Play Store has the same rules as the App Store. The only material difference is that Android had side-loading for a long time.
 
We've had too many cases where Apple treats its users as idiots.
That's certainly a point of view. BUT, I will say they are consistent with that. It's "their" way. You can like it or not. And that is exactly what I'm trying to ensure is still an option. I fully understand those that want to do everything or more things themselves. Have more control over all of it. Just know there are those that DON'T.
 
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The introduction of sideloading and alternative app stores on iOS doesn’t necessarily prevent someone from not sideloading or not using app stores other than Apple's but it does give iPhone users a greater ability to "vote with their $$$" by picking where they want to get their apps. Again, Apple's current restrictions prevent iPhone users from being able to "vote with their $$$" when it comes to purchasing/acquiring apps.
The introduction of requirements changing from government regulation is a bad idea overall. Like the mandate to usb-c, Al it means is the eu will be behind the curve as now a charging port is regulated. Same with this. iOS is a take it leave it operating system. The fact that the eu made the App Store a public utility doesn’t mean it’s best overall for the people. It’s a race to the bottom with copy cat apps, scamware and malware.

Vote with your $$$ is the best thing. Don’t like the walled garden, get an android there are hundreds to choose from.
 
Like the mandate to usb-c, Al it means is the eu will be behind the curve as now a charging port is regulated.
Nothing’s (not the company, lol) stopping anyone from adding a better port alongside USB-C. And if a truly better port does come around, then the EU can update its law. It’s a win overall.
the eu made the App Store a public utility
No, Apple still retains control over the App Store. The EU just made sure that is not the only entry point for apps from now on. Saying “the App Store is now a public utility and it’s all the EU’s fault” is very disingenuous.
 
Many people have quoted how I know apps will leave the App Store. I’ll respond all at once. History. Just take a look and you will know. Look at the legal documents and communication regarding Epic vs Apple. Also, look at the lawsuit from Epic towards Google. Epic wants their own App Store. Look at their track record on PC. Purchasing exclusivity where games are removed from the BIGGEST PLATFORM - Steam. Equivalent to App Store on PC. “Developers would never leave Steam!”. The same arguments would be applied to the PC space and it made things far worse.

Epic also sued Google and, among many things, stated that it is “too” difficult to side load on Android.

You all need to connect the dots. Think critically. This is long term chess by these companies (not just Epic). Android will be changing too. There are dozens of points of evidence to suggest Apps leaving the App Store vs staying.
 
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The U.S. culture emphasizes the freedom of choice, the freedom of speech, and the freedom of the market, as well as the rights and responsibilities of the individual.

(snip)

The EU culture values cooperation, solidarity, and diversity, and believes that the best way to achieve freedom is to enhance the role of the state and to regulate the market.

Great analysis. Thanks.

I would add this observation:

The two different cultural approaches are heavily influenced by history. Europe, for much of its history, had kingdoms, dukedoms, etc. where the ruler was the state and provided for his or her subjects and they, in turn, acted collectively to form a society.

The US, OTOH, chose not to establish a monarchy after rebelling against one who it saw as distant and infringing on their rights as Englishmen. Rebellion changed how monarchs were viewed and governments role in citizen's lives. As it expanded westward individual actions were key to expansion. As a result, the individual and their rights are culturally embedded.

Both approaches have pluses and minuses, and in practice incorporate features of each even as teh have a dominant cultural outlook.
 
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Many people have quoted how I know apps will leave the App Store. I’ll respond all at once. History. Just take a look and you will know. Look at the legal documents and communication regarding Epic vs Apple. Also, look at the lawsuit from Epic towards Google. Epic wants their own App Store. Look at their track record on PC. Purchasing exclusivity where games are removed from the BIGGEST PLATFORM - Steam. Equivalent to App Store on PC. “Developers would never leave Steam!”. The same arguments would be applied to the PC space and it made things far worse.

Epic also sued Google and, among many things, stated that it is “too” difficult to side load on Android.

You all need to connect the dots. Think critically. This is long term chess by these companies (not just Epic). Android will be changing too. There are dozens of points of evidence to suggest Apps leaving the App Store vs staying.

I suspect the big players like EPIC may leave as they have the money and user base to try to go it alone. I wonder if they will be willing to abandon Apple's user base accessible via the App Store if Apple changes the terms and fees apps such as EPIC's will have to pay.

I think smaller developers will be less likely to leave simply because alternatives will not offer the user base and services Apple does at the price Apple charges.

Some might argue "EPIC is big enough to have a large user base..." Sure, but it is most likely gamers, and specific types of gamers, and not offer the breadth and depth of users Apple does. Same with Google Play - not a lot of iOS users. Google could open an iOS store and it would be interesting to see how that impacts their relationship as a search engine with Apple.
 
Free always beats pay if free is easy to get. I remember when developers used disk based copy protection which lead to teh proliferation of bit copiers. Computer club meetings were often swap fests and warz BBS abounded. Now, with the internet, simple Google searches can turn up ways to get apps for free. Of course, it also adds ways to insert malware...



I'm curious - what's your take on sideloading and the possiblity of greater piracy?



Chosing not to use it is the best defense, along with Apple implementing various sandboxing protections. The problem is when popular apps decide to be sideload only.



Which is a desire to raise the Jolly Roger ...

Seriously, if things like vanced become widespread Google will have to find other ways to generate revenue and make vanced unusable.

The basic problem is human nature - people want things for free, justify it because "they are sticking it to the man," and "the man" looks to other ways to protect their revenue. It becomes a cat and mouse game.
Well, in my defense, and maybe others, I only pirated apps before I truly understood the amount of work they put into their apps. After being in the game for a few years and getting to know quite a few devs, I changed my tune. Hell, I even went back and bought an app I don’t use anymore just so the dev could get paid. But, yes, it will be a constant cat and mouse game, with the consumers and devs being collateral damage.
 
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I guess Open Source developers, new developers who are just getting started, and devs who don't want to pay 99$/year to distribute their apps have just vanished. As it stands, I'm fading too!
You’re certainly in the minority, yes. Especially when most people have come right out and said why they wanted to sideload, lol.
 
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You see, that actually makes sense. But then you factor in that you're not forced to go to Walmart. You can go to Costco, Best Buy or Target (I don't know the difference, i only know them by name, sorry)
To go back to the point being made, the state you live in doesn't force its residents to only shop at a particular store because they get a commission.
Agreed, I was just speaking to the whole, ”Apple is stealing all of profit” kinda jabber, lol.

Using the same analogy, epic could take their game to another App Store but it certainly won’t garner as much revenue as using a store with more reach and reputation. That’s the only reason I used Walmart, they are literally everywhere and well known by everyone . Not to say that your examples aren’t, just not to the same degree.

If WW3 hit America, the only things still standing, will be cockroaches and Walmart, LMAO
 
Nothing’s (not the company, lol) stopping anyone from adding a better port alongside USB-C. And if a truly better port does come around, then the EU can update its law. It’s a win overall.
That’s the downside of this type of government regulation. Of course nobody knows how all of this will shake out ultimately.
No, Apple still retains control over the App Store. The EU just made sure that is not the only entry point for apps from now on. Saying “the App Store is now a public utility and it’s all the EU’s fault” is very disingenuous.
No, apple does not maintain control over the iPhone. That’s a major selling point, to me, and I’m guessing many more. People complain about bad apps in the App Store, but somehow lose critical thinking skill when they fail to see malware and scamware are just around the corner.
 
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Nothing’s (not the company, lol) stopping anyone from adding a better port alongside USB-C. And if a truly better port does come around, then the EU can update its law. It’s a win overall.

No, Apple still retains control over the App Store. The EU just made sure that is not the only entry point for apps from now on. Saying “the App Store is now a public utility and it’s all the EU’s fault” is very disingenuous.
“Nothing’s (not the company, lol) stopping anyone from adding a better port alongside USB-C. And if a truly better port does come around, then the EU can update its law. It’s a win overall.” Sorry, I don’t know how to respond to specific parts of your comments. But this is literally the opposite of what the EU wants. They want less ewaste. Adding another port just increases it. Otherwise, Apple could’ve just kept the lightning and added USB-C beside it. If I understood you correctly
 
Most? Really? Most in this thread or most in the world, or the vocal minority?
Throughout all of the platforms that this has been discussed on, more people say they want to sdieload so they can install modified apps, than use it for legit purposes.

I’m not saying there are only a handful of people that line up with this individual, just that more people want it to pirate.

Since you can now sideload, you can now install a torrent downloader and you’re free to pirate whatever you wish, apps, movies, music, etc.

Boy, I wish there was a way to track the install metrics because torrent apps are gonna go through the roof. I’d bet my left nut on it, hahaha
 
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“Nothing’s (not the company, lol) stopping anyone from adding a better port alongside USB-C. And if a truly better port does come around, then the EU can update its law. It’s a win overall.” Sorry, I don’t know how to respond to specific parts of your comments. But this is literally the opposite of what the EU wants. They want less ewaste. Adding another port just increases it. Otherwise, Apple could’ve just kept the lightning and added USB-C beside it. If I understood you correctly

True, but in the interim they have created more waste, and buy the time the USB-C migration is complete some other newer, better port or even fully wireless will probably be rolled out.

Not that I am against the USB-C port mandate but do not see it realistically contributing to its stated goal for a long while.

One upside for manufacturers is since USB-C is now standard they can ditch putting cables in the box and make a few cents more profit.
 
That’s the downside of this type of government regulation. Of course nobody knows how all of this will shake out ultimately.
I agree with the rest of this, but how exactly is is a downside?

No, apple does not maintain control over the iPhone. That’s a major selling point, to me, and I’m guessing many more. People complain about bad apps in the App Store, but somehow lose critical thinking skill when they fail to see malware and scamware are just around the corner.
Sure, but that’s not what you said. Unless you’re trying to imply iPhone = App Store

But this is literally the opposite of what the EU wants. They want less ewaste. Adding another port just increases it. Otherwise, Apple could’ve just kept the lightning and added USB-C beside it. If I understood you correctly
I mean, since there’s now just one cable for all devices, I reckon the waste produced by a hypothetical switch would be much lower. Besides, old devices don’t cease to exist, so old cables still remain useful.

Since you can now sideload, you can now install a torrent downloader and you’re free to pirate whatever you wish, apps, movies, music, etc.
If you think the majority of iPhone users who wish to sideload are pirates, that says a lot more about you than it does about the sideload crowd
 
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Vote with your $$$ is the best thing. Don’t like the walled garden, get an android there are hundreds to choose from.
I'm happy with my iPhone. Thanks. And soon even happier, when the DMA will take effect.

Side note. If someone created an Android phone whose main feature is a super curated App Store, would you switch?
 
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