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That isn't going to happen with an Apple product. Steve Jobs has NEVER supported the idea of making Macintosh, iPod, iPhone, etc. as an open box for nerds to play with. Their goal is to design products that are integrated solutions from top to bottom whose chief feature is elegant design.

The top to bottom elegant design is one thing that's appealing about Macs to nerds. At the core of OS X is Unix and the legacy of NeXT. It's an absolutely wonderful system to develop for. That same core is in the iPhone. The walled garden isn't adding elegance, it's taking it away.

This may seem unimportant to some of you... but elegant design is the difference between having 300 mediocre applications that work poorly, and three useful applications that work exceedingly well FOR WHAT THEY DO. By this I do NOT define "useful" as it has every feature under the sun in the app... I mean that the app, for what it actually does, does it well.

It's not mutually exclusive to have 300 medicore apps and three great apps. Isn't that the state of 3rd party software on Macs - heck, on PCs in general? There's lots of medicore apps that might each be used by a dozen people, and then there's superstars like Quicksilver, 1Passwd, and Pixelmator just to name three.

Uncontrolled distribution won't prevent those high quality apps from being created, especially since the iPhone has that same elegant Unix/NeXT core that nerds love. If anything, strictly controlled distribution is more likely to prevent these apps from being created.

LoganT said:
Tell me some of these amazing applications made by people?

MobileScrobbler. TapTap Revolution. EvolutionRGB. VNsea. A frickin' text editor! ssh. I can keep listing apps I've added to my Touch that I enjoy and find useful.
 
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/420.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0 Mobile/4A102 Safari/419.3)

Spades said:
Spades,
With all due respect, that's sort of like saying, "Here, borrow my car for a joyride", then you getting pissed that I didn't put up guardrails to keep you from swaying off the road.

So we're getting into the "car analogy" part of the argument? :)

Actually it's more like saying "Here, borrow my car" and then getting mad because the car you gave me didn't have brakes. That's perfectly reasonable.

This sole gatekeeper plan is offering the car without brakes, and then fixing it by putting up guardrails.

that's a great analogy!
 
Freemarket

I am on page 8 of (currently) 13 pages in this forum...

I need to read faster.

But, after lotsa' gripes, whining, some good ideas...

It still comes down to this:

1) To date, Apple has been selling a "closed" iPhone & Touch.

2) We evaluate how well these products suit our needs.

3) It is our choice to buy or not!

4) We are satisfied, or not, based on how well we did steps 2 & 3.

5) Now, Apple is trying to entice new customers and increase the satisfaction of existing customers by opening this "closed" system, to some degree.

6) Repeat from step 2

Caveat Emptor!

Apple owes us nothing!

Either Apple continues to give each of us what we want, or we can go elsewhere!

If enough of us go elsewhere, Apple will adapt or die!
 
SDK???? Steve Delay Kit? Steve Demo Kit?
I have to see to believe. Sorry, but Apple is no long credible.
I am pretty comfortable with installer on my iPod touch!
 
MobileScrobbler. TapTap Revolution. EvolutionRGB. . A frickin' text editor! ssh. I can keep listing apps I've added to my Touch that I enjoy and find useful.

EvolutionRGB looks incredibly pointless. I could live without it being on the Touch/Iphone.

MobileSCrobbler is a cool application. But it's also a useful application so I could see it available with Apples approval.

A text editor will probably come, mobile iWork anyone?

Doubt SSH would come, but I don't really see the point of it. But that's just me.

Yes you wont see the pointless nifty applications but actual good applications (like the MobileSCrobbler) could be there.

JMO
 
"JMO" is right. I like what I like. It's not up to Apple to decide what is and is not "pointless" to me.
 
I don't see why an SSH client or Text editor would be banned, hell there is an SSH client as a dashboard widget.
 
It seems to me that these items for the iPhone should be handled exactly the same as the Widgets that are listed on apple's website.
 
I don't see why an SSH client or Text editor would be banned, hell there is an SSH client as a dashboard widget.

Nothing I mentioned would probably be banned, but the restrictions may mean they're not ported. One thing likely to be banned is IM clients. I have one, but the Touch isn't a good platform for IM and I never use it. The iPhone would be a great platform for it though, and Apple isn't likely to let it happen.
 
Apologies if this has already been said (I don't have time to read through 9 pages right now) but I don't see how Apple can possibly have the final word on each app.

When developing your apps, there must be a way to get them onto your iPod/iPhone so that you can test them. Knowledgeable users could then use the same method to get third party apps onto their own iPods.
 
The top to bottom elegant design is one thing that's appealing about Macs to nerds. At the core of OS X is Unix and the legacy of NeXT. It's an absolutely wonderful system to develop for. That same core is in the iPhone. The walled garden isn't adding elegance, it's taking it away.

The interface guidelines exist for a reason. You can call this a walled garden but it's still a garden rather than an open pit into which anyone can throw their garbage. Homeowners associations exist for a reason... to preserve the value of the community inhabited by their residents. If you think they take away elegance come to Dallas in deed unrestricted communities and see what happens to the "user experience" in a neighborhood where any idiot can buy a house and turn it into an albatross or rent it out to residents who will trash the place into an eyesore. Ask the neighbors how much they appreciate their neighborhood going to crap and their real estate values dropping as a result.

If people can't meet the community guidelines, tough crap. They aren't likely to make MORE money by using goony ergonomics just because they think it's cool. They're likely to make MORE money when they are able to meet a common standard of elegance and excellence that will improve the overall user experience.

If the open pit works better then why isn't Linux the dominant operating system? It's free, it's open, it's extensible and yet it fails. Why? Because the average user is required to possess more knowledge to use the tool than the sum total of work productivity achieved. When the tool is itself more convoluted than the results of the work produced by it, this is a failure of industrial design and a failure of imagination.

It's different if you're paid by the hour to tinker and program... but most people aren't.

It's not mutually exclusive to have 300 medicore apps and three great apps. Isn't that the state of 3rd party software on Macs - heck, on PCs in general? There's lots of medicore apps that might each be used by a dozen people, and then there's superstars like Quicksilver, 1Passwd, and Pixelmator just to name three.

Have you ever heard the expression "One bad apple..." yada yada. Guess who gets the majority of the blame for that one bad Apple.

It's a different issue with PC's that may be running hundreds of Apps but such design would terminally clutter a form factor like the iPhone. The methodology, design, scope and purpose are of a different scale. I don't want 300 crappy apps and 3 good ones on a phone with limited resources relative to a desktop machine.

Also, there's the issue that Apple has partnered with a carrier with whom they may have restrictions because of the way in which carriers like to control the usage of their network and even the distribution of applications over their network which themselves do not, in normal operation, use the network (e.g. games). I don't think many on these boards have considered the complexity of the juggling act Apple is doing here... on the one hand trying to work within the screwed up system of US cellular carriers and at the same time trying to change the nature of that business model to wrest control away from the very carriers that control entry into that game.

Uncontrolled distribution won't prevent those high quality apps from being created, especially since the iPhone has that same elegant Unix/NeXT core that nerds love. If anything, strictly controlled distribution is more likely to prevent these apps from being created.

That depends on what ELSE the controlled distribution model offers. You forget that convenience goes a LONG way.

Look at the control of the iTunes DRM model. Now look at how many people said iTunes Music Store would go nowhere because the alternative is free music.

Well... not quite. The alternative is free music accessible through any number of P2P softwares that work inelegantly. By comparison, the user experience of iTunes is so appealing that Apple is now the #2 retailer of music behind only Wal-Mart. The premium people pay isn't just for the content, but for the user experience.

Now look at how they activate iPhone and distribute updates. How many people have EVER updated the firmware/software on the myriad handsets out there before iPhone? Now, it's all in one system and automated. If users liked the fact that iPhone meant not having to wait 45 minutes while AT&T futzes on their computers to attempt, and often fail, to properly activate your phone... if iPhone means that users do not have to recite incantations and sacrifice chickens just to get a firmware update installed... if iPhone means that users do not have to jump through fiery hoops just to put media on their phone... then I submit to you the controlled distribution of applications will, by and large, have a similar appeal.

The hindrances you perceive also come with some benefits... and frankly for the average user the benefits outweigh the hindrances. Also, these same hoops that developers have had to jump through to get more complete official support from Apple on the Mac end have paid off. Wil Shipley made many times more money distributing to a "small" contingent of Mac users than he ever did designing any number of kooky applications for the vastly ubiquitous Windows platform. Because Apple users have a more consistently appealing experience they tend to demonstrate a willingness to actually PAY for upgrades.

If openness seems attractive, then so does money. If it's a choice between developing free applications of unrestricted design and distribution for the Linux crowd that has a preconceived notion that every application should cost next to nothing, versus developing robust and elegant applications within distribution and design criteria for the Mac crowd who pays, and pays well, for the user experience... who do you think will make developers happier?

That being said, if as you say nothing will prevent people from making third party apps outside this system, I'm sure Apple knows this. I'm sure that it'll continue... and I'm sure that means this SDK doesn't matter because nothing will have changed for the developers who do not want to conform to Apple's guidelines.

Apple is simply covering their ass so they don't take the heat for poor designs that aren't of their creation... and they're absolutely right to do so. If you believe otherwise, then can I assume that you will gladly take full responsibility for any flaws in work performed by third party contractors on any piece of property you sell?
 
It seems to me that these items for the iPhone should be handled exactly the same as the Widgets that are listed on apple's website.

I agree.

I've been arguing the point of Apple being right in being the gatekeeper, but what I'm really in favor of is protecting the platform for the average user. If Apple gave developers a choice to submit to them or not, then at least the average user could decide to stay away from anything not 'check out' by Apple. Those who are more adventurous could download from anywhere and chance the crashes and instability that might come along with it.
 
I don't understand what is confusing. Who loses if Apple looks at each program and sees if it will harm the phone? Seriously who does that harm and who does that restrict? It only restricts people who want to write malicious code. This is what I am hoping Apple will do, look for malicious code. Will this be all they will do? I don't know, and neither do you.

ME!

It will harm ME! An honest developer with a localized need within the company, or even to select customers. I've got no interest in having my app appear in iTunes, since it isn't applicable to ANYONE outside of my company.

If Apple plays Nanny, then I will be forbidden from writing the handy, remote process monitor I've been dreaming up for months. If Apple has to play man-in-the-loop for my application, they'll never get around to "approving it", and the entire platform will simply not work, and we'll have to go (back) to Palm.

To flip the coin: Raise your hand if you think Apple's policy will be to be given source code, and have their tech boys pour over it looking for malicious code. It's unfeasible and unprofitable and unreliable. Besides, the Macintosh, YOUR Macintosh, has had the ability to arbitrarily install apps for decades, and for the most part, has remained free of defects. OSX in the mac --> OSX in the phone.

We've all covered this ground a million times and it boils down to Personal Responsibility. If you install an evil app on your iPhone, or your macintosh, it's your own fault. Everyone is (probably) an adult and able to make good judgements.
 
When developing your apps, there must be a way to get them onto your iPod/iPhone so that you can test them. Knowledgeable users could then use the same method to get third party apps onto their own iPods.

True, but knowledgeable users putting third party apps that Apple hasn't signed isn't going to be an issue as they know what they are doing.

ME!

It will harm ME! An honest developer with a localized need within the company, or even to select customers. I've got no interest in having my app appear in iTunes, since it isn't applicable to ANYONE outside of my company.

I'm assuming that Apple will let you do that, you'll just have to pay a fee to get the application signed, probably $100.
 
It states that they will be tested (for the benefit of the user) and distributed through iTunes (for the protection of the user).

Will all of that that "testing" be before or after they test their own buggy software and hardware?

:rolleyes:
 
[QUOTE Originally Posted by Spades ]
[I believe Apple is doing this for business reasons.

'nuf said![/QUOTE]


Yeah you're right. They are doing this to keep the integrity and profitability of their business. Wait.....that's a bad thing?

Sure, they loose some customer respect, but not the kind of customers that matter to them. They care about the customers that want an integrated solution, and ultimate elegance.

"I will sacrifice the ability to install some poorly made 3rd party app for elegance and integration ANY day." That is the description of the MAJORITY of Apple users. That is who Apple wants to please. If you don't agree with it, find a new fruit.....
 
Didnt wanna read 14 pages but... how is this different from how everyone always thought it was gonna be?

Developers put out apps through iTunes, which Apple has control over. Steve has said since day one that the iPhone isnt going to be some "totally open" platform. Apple is committed to maintaining the integrity of the phone. If you are unhappy with the way they go about maintaining that integrity... go buy a Treo?
 
Ok....

Thats because Apple are only allowing you to use the functionality that works.

You being shielded. :rolleyes:

Yeah. Only the stuff that works. Don't want THAT.
:rolleyes::rolleyes:

You'll be able to load thousands of applets very soon, and some of them might even be functional. All the developers will have to do is meet some basic standards. Is that too hard? Do you not respect the customer enough to even do that?
 
'
"I will sacrifice the ability to install some poorly made 3rd party app for elegance and integration ANY day." That is the description of the MAJORITY of Apple users. That is who Apple wants to please. If you don't agree with it, find a new fruit.....

Who in the world are you talking about? Are you saying you have zero third party apps on your Mac now?

An Apple user uses a Macintosh, and a Macintosh has THOUSANDS of third party apps - some great, some crappy, most Steve Jobs has never even seen.

The free market has, for years and years, pushed the crappy apps off into obscurity, while rising the best ones to the top. Sticking Apple in the loop restricts your freedom and costs you money.

If you want Apple to judge what's "poorly made", then please feel free to download only from Apple, but allow me the freedom to do what I want. I understand if you're nervous. I'm not.
 
Look around, then.

As always, time will tell. All I know is that this line of reasoning usually only leads to increased control from whoever holds the power, and less freedom for the consumers, which is something I deeply resent.

There are literally many THOUSANDS of options out there for phones, providers, services, plans and apps. Your "resentment" is child-like and illogical.

The power lies with you, not some boogeyman "who holds the power"--don't buy it. Economics 101.
 
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