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Unless an auto company decides to build a car that uses some sort of special biofuel or some sort of fuel cell technology that is available from a single source.

If you don't like my "free pc's" business model --- then I can make a "subsidized pc" business model. Sign up with my ISP and you can buy a pc for $50. Nothing wrong with that.

You tried that stupid example, however according to Apple durring their last quarter earnings conference the iPhone is NOT subsidised. That's straight from them. So it would be like purchasing a MacBook Pro at 2,500 and then being forced into using a certain ISP just so Apple can get a portion of your bill. Not like receiving a PC for 50 bucks, if I got the iPhone for free I would have no problem using their crappy calling plans.

Your point pretty much backs mine up.
 
You tried that stupid example, however according to Apple durring their last quarter earnings conference the iPhone is NOT subsidised. That's straight from them. So it would be like purchasing a MacBook Pro at 2,500 and then being forced into using a certain ISP just so Apple can get a portion of your bill. Not like receiving a PC for 50 bucks, if I got the iPhone for free I would have no problem using their crappy calling plans.

Your point pretty much backs mine up.

I added after you made your comments that I can make a porsche designed pc's and sell it to you for a full price (only if you can sign up with my ISP).

If people are willing to pay extra for a ASUS Ferrari computer, then they can pay extra to get my porsche PC.
 
I added after you made your comments that I can make a porsche designed pc's and sell it to you for a full price (only if you can sign up with my ISP).

If people are willing to pay extra for a ASUS Ferrari computer, then they can pay extra to get my porsche PC.

Which should be illegal because it's an anti-competitive principle. If you do that and it proves to be successful there is nothing stopping all other manufacturers from operating in the same way. That creates situation where ISP's would be forced to hand over their profits to manufacturers. You would then have a market were consumers are extremely limited in their ability to shop around for good ISP's and the need to offer competitive prices, quality, and good customer service would fall and deteriorate.
 
Otaviano, bit of age old advice - never argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Better to add to your ignore list.
 
Which should be illegal because it's an anti-competitive principle. If you do that and it proves to be successful there is nothing stopping all other manufacturers from operating in the same way. That creates situation where ISP's would be forced to hand over their profits to manufacturers. You would then have a market were consumers are extremely limited in their ability to shop around for good ISP's and the need to offer competitive prices, quality, and good customer service would fall and deteriorate.

It wouldn't be anti-competitive if I am a brand new ISP with zero percentage market share and Porsche has never made a pc either.

No difference like how you can buy special movie tie-in mugs from MacDonald's --- they ain't subsidizing you on that cheap plastic mug.
 
Well, France has only 3 national carriers --- that's too little competition....
Agreed.

Canada only has three also but Canada is a much bigger country than any in Europe and is much larger than even the US in terms of coverage area.

In practical terms this means that most areas have only one or perhaps two carriers to choose from. It's easy to see that this lack of competition in both Europe and Canada is the root cause of the price gouging. A similar plan to the US AT&T iPhone plan is between 3 and five times more expensive in Canada.

The saddest thing is that Apple is going along with this, nay even encouraging it, and that even though the iPhone is not subsidised, they are pricing it like it is and no one is even arguing about it.

iPhone makes Apple roughly 100% profit (50% margin) just on the bare hardware and then just under $500 from each consumer contract and 30% of the AT&T profits on top of that.

Very underhanded to just tack on the lost contract revenue onto the unlocked iPhone if you ask me as they don't actually lose anything in the first place.
 
Agreed.
In practical terms this means that most areas have only one or perhaps two carriers to choose from. It's easy to see that this lack of competition in both Europe and Canada is the root cause of the price gouging. A similar plan to the US AT&T iPhone plan is between 3 and five times more expensive in Canada.

How do you figure, I understand you including Canada but Europe? My plan costs the equivalent of the lowest AT&T plan and offers me more than the most expensive AT&T plan.

Furthermore all the iPhone carriers in Europe have better plans available than the ones they are offering with the actual iPhone.

If anything the only evidence of price gouging is directly related to the fact that the iPhone is locked.
 
If anything the only evidence of price gouging is directly related to the fact that the iPhone is locked.

Simlocked phones have always been available in Europe (except Belgium).

You don't have to buy an iphone. If the recent news reports are correct that the iphone launch in Europe is a dud --- then supply and demand will force the European carriers to adjust their price plans downward.
 
I've been hooked on reading this over the past couple of days! To be honest I really don't care about either the price of unlocked IPhones in Germany or France. It's not going to change my life if I buy an IPhone nor do I care for what it offers. I just want a small form factor phone which lasts all day which I use for calls, checking personal email and maybe looking up info on the internet. Do I want or need something like the IPhone in my handbag er no. Judging by the activation figures in the UK it looks like alot of people share my opinion!
 
Long Term Strategy

Apple needed to get into the mobile phone market and they needed (some) telecom companies' help and marketing power to do so. They are in the process of doing that in the US and Europe and have caused quite a stir in the Asian market as well. Once they have a presence in the major markets in the world, India/China/Japan included, they will release an official unlocked version for all. That, I believe, is Apple's long term strategy.

Why didn't Apple sell the iPhone as an unlocked device to begin with?
#!: Marketing. Think about it... If you go to buy a cell phone, you would have go to a provider directly, right? Like an AT&T store, or a Verizon store, or whatever store. Apple would not have had any presence there once the iPhone was released. The other option would be Best Buy, Circuit City, WalMart, (where iPods are sold), but mobile phone are sold at the booths setup from Verizon or AT&T or whoever and you select your phone and plan right there. Apple needed to penetrate this space and have the iPhone sitting side-by-side with the Motorolas/Nokias, so people can go to a mobile phone store, compare and choose.
#2: Lack of time. Seems like Apple won't sell an iPhone in a country where they don't have at least a few brick and mortar stores (for servicing and support purposes - Genius Bar). They need to build more of those in India at least, from where they can sell other Apple products. So meanwhile, they'll use the stores from the service providers, i.e. have a tied contract.

My prediction - Macworld 2009 - Jobs: "Many of our customers have told us that they would like to choose their own carrier. We feel the same way. Today, we are announcing the next generation of the iPhone... it has 16GB memory, 3G, iChat, it's even thinner AND its unlocked!"

Then, everyone will say... WAY TO GO APPLE, buy an iPhone, and their stock will shoot through the roof. :D
 
...
#!: Marketing. Think about it... If you go to buy a cell phone, you would have go to a provider directly, right? Like an AT&T store, or a Verizon store, or whatever store. Apple would not have had any presence there once the iPhone was released. The other option would be Best Buy, Circuit City, WalMart, (where iPods are sold), but mobile phone are sold at the booths setup from Verizon or AT&T or whoever and you select your phone and plan right there. Apple needed to penetrate this space and have the iPhone sitting side-by-side with the Motorolas/Nokias, so people can go to a mobile phone store, compare and choose.

You have a point there. Also it's easier for the user when 'it just works', look at the easy activation process!

However I stil think the prices are insane.

#2: Lack of time. Seems like Apple won't sell an iPhone in a country where they don't have at least a few brick and mortar stores (for servicing and support purposes - Genius Bar). They need to build more of those in India at least, from where they can sell other Apple products. So meanwhile, they'll use the stores from the service providers, i.e. have a tied contract.

I know that here in the Netherlands, there are Apple dealers pretty much all over the bigger cities (and 'big' here would be a 'town' in the USA). I counted 4 in Amsterdam, and 2 in Rotterdam where I work. One is just 7 floors away :p

My prediction - Macworld 2009 - Jobs: "Many of our customers have told us that they would like to choose their own carrier. We feel the same way. Today, we are announcing the next generation of the iPhone... it has 16GB memory, 3G, iChat, it's even thinner AND its unlocked!"

Yeah that sounds good! Especially the thinner and unlocked thing ;). The phone isn't all that pretty compared to the touch imho.

By the way, ever seen Jobs get over a product announcement that fast? My guess would be more like:

"So that's it for Mac. Now let's talk about iPhone.

The iPhone is doing incredibly well. It has been released in 4 countries so far, and more will come soon. We've sold the first million iPhones in just 74 days after it was launched, and we're right on track for hitting the 10 million mark by the end of this year (2008). iPhone has changed the market.

*insert joke about iPhone clones*

We're pleased to tell you that the iPhone will hit other European an Asian countries in a few months. Among these are Spain, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Japan.

But that's not all - today, we're introducing you to the next generation iPhone, and this is what it looks like. It's beautiful. Even thinner than before. Let's look at how it works.

*demo showing various additions such as copy-paste, a new widget or two, etc*

All these new features will be brought to v1 users also, via software updates. Now, what makes this new generation unique?

Phones have historically always been about talking and listening. We believe there's more to communication than that. Today, the technology is finally there to go a step further. This is unlike any other phone on the market today.

We're bringing iChat to the iPhone. Let me show how it works.

*demo calling Phil, or maybe some celebrities*

Look at the quality of the video, it's stunning. Everything we're showing here is a live feed from the new iPhone.

Now, you might be wondering how this works. I'm pleased to announce that the new iPhone has full support for 3G networks. Not only does this allow you to enjoy the web in more ways, but this also allows is to bring the iPhone to even more countries that had their networks upgraded to 3G already.

This is the new iPhone. It will have 16 GB of flash memory so you have even more storage space, iChat, and of course - 3G networking.

You're getting all this for exactly the same price as the previous iPhone.

But there is one more thing to the iPhone. We've got some awesome deals with several networks in the new countries, but we're also be selling it fully unlocked for just € 599. We think a lot of people are going to like it."
 
Only when they are subsidised, which the iPhone isn't.

Of course it's "subsidized", but just not in the traditional [accounting] sense. It's not the original hardware sale; it's the ongoing software update/support side of the model that is subsidized by ongoing monthly payments through the contract carrier.

And as naroola said "they needed (some) telecom companies' help and marketing power to do so." But they needed even more than that. In the US, for instance, if Apple had tried to sell the iPhone itself to use on whichever GMS carriers, it would have failed miserably. The iPhone challenges the traditional power structure in the telecom industry where the carriers dictate terms. Not only would there have been no incentive to see the iPhone work successfully on the networks, there would have been an incentive to see it fail--death by a thousand tiny cuts. Apple needed a single exclusive carrier whose fortunes were tied to Apple's to succeed. Otherwise the industry as a whole, with assistance from other handset manufacturers whose businesses were also threatened by the iPhone, would have assured the failure of the iPhone.
*[Of course there's the argument being made now here that competition for the iPhone would have resulted in the various carriers all upgrading for the business, but think about it: Why spend a bunch of money, for an unproven demand, on a product which threatens the status quo, and your power, especially if you can count on "better deals" from other handset manufacturers not to support the iPhone. Anti-competitive? Yes. Illegal? Yes. Does it happen? Yes.]*
So, now that the iPhone has succeeded/broken through, less restrictive business models will become possible, though probably not for at least another year. Ideally, you should be able to walk into any Apple affiliated store, buy an iPhone, and use it on any network, including a free wireless network (though still paying Apple a service fee, upfront or monthly, directly or through the carrier, for support/software updates/etc., which will become much less over time). This is how the iPhone model will actually benefit consumers in the long run, why the other carriers and handset manufacturers who realize this are so threatened, and why those same carriers and manufacturers are paying clowns such as Enderle and Dvorak, and sending trolls around to boards such as this to stir up negative feelings and confuse the issues, and charging "greed" (excuse me, "rapacious greed").
 
Of course it's "subsidized", but just not in the traditional [accounting] sense. It's not the original hardware sale; it's the ongoing software update/support side of the model that is subsidized by ongoing monthly payments through the contract carrier.

I though we debunked this argument already. Other OEM's upate their software for free quite regularly. Or have you never heard of firmware upgrades?

Do PS3 owners pay Sony every month for software updates (that add extra functionality even)? Or Xbox owners? Or WIFI router owners? Or Zune owners? Or N95 owners? Or Mongul owners? Or Windows owners?

Come back when you have some arguments that you thought through - the whole software update issue is because Apple shipped an unfinished product.
 
Anyone has a an unlocked iPhone working?

I've got an "unlocked" iPhone from T-Online two days ago, which still cannot be activated. I called Apple Support and they told me that they were having some trouble unlocking phones and to be patient. Anyone else has that problem? I wonder if Apple or T-Online is deliberately delaying unlocking the phones. They don't do it on the spot and tell you have to wait when you buy the phone.
 
I though we debunked this argument already. .................................................................... - the whole software update issue is because Apple shipped an unfinished product.

"We" didn't debunk squat already. You dismissed by fiat an argument you didn't like.
And yes. You are exactly right: Apple shipped an unfinished product, and promoted it as such from the beginning. But out of the gate on day one, there was nothing close to the iPhone (and certainly not that pathetic N95 cameraphone). Apple will update it and add features over time, and it will only get better. That's the subscription model. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Just don't whine about it. And by the way, there aren't really any Zune owners--that's just a rumor perpetuated by microsoft.
 
"We" didn't debunk squat already. You dismissed by fiat an argument you didn't like.
And yes. You are exactly right: Apple shipped an unfinished product, and promoted it as such from the beginning. But out of the gate on day one, there was nothing close to the iPhone (and certainly not that pathetic N95 cameraphone). Apple will update it and add features over time, and it will only get better. That's the subscription model. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Just don't whine about it. And by the way, there aren't really any Zune owners--that's just a rumor perpetuated by microsoft.

Guess what - there are about as many Zune owners as iPhone owners.

And your augment of the iPhone being ahead (except possible in GUI) is specious. The number of actual FEATURES Apple would need to add to match most modern smartphones are rather large.

And the more features Apple adds, the more complex the UI will need to be presented to the user. Maybe Apple will never add them, just for that reason, and the iPhone will never catch up.

Your last statement really demonstrates how anti-consumer Apple is - to have your unfinished product supported you need to pay Apple a subscription free - and smile about it.

And you are cheerleader number one for this approach - for shame again.
 
?? I have never seen a Zune and I've seen hundreds of iPhones. Are Zune people just too ashamed to show they own one or are the numbers manipulated?

I live in canada and i've seen more iPhones than zunes :rolleyes:

Well i've only really ever seen one iPhone, but thats because i don't live in a major city like Vancouver or Toronto, there are tonnes there i'm sure, and i've heard so also.

But the zune isn't available in canada is it?
Yet i don't endlessly hear people complaining about that.
 
Apple needed to get into the mobile phone market and they needed (some) telecom companies' help and marketing power to do so. They are in the process of doing that in the US and Europe and have caused quite a stir in the Asian market as well. Once they have a presence in the major markets in the world, India/China/Japan included, they will release an official unlocked version for all. That, I believe, is Apple's long term strategy.

Or once Apple gets somewhat successful with their initial launches --- they are going to ask for more and more of the revenue share.

Why mess with a business model that works, right?

Do PS3 owners pay Sony every month for software updates (that add extra functionality even)? Or Xbox owners?

Game consoles also have a life span of 5-10 years per generation --- and "free" firmware support is paid for by high game prices.
 
How do you figure, I understand you including Canada but Europe? My plan costs the equivalent of the lowest AT&T plan and offers me more than the most expensive AT&T plan.

Furthermore all the iPhone carriers in Europe have better plans available than the ones they are offering with the actual iPhone.

If anything the only evidence of price gouging is directly related to the fact that the iPhone is locked.
You could be right about Europe. I am certain that everything I said *does* actually apply in Canada though.

In Canada all of our media and telecommunication companies have virtual monopolies and always have had. When there is more than one telecommunications company in a given market, they generally collude on prices in typical oligarchical fashion.

These monopolies are supposed to be countered by the fact that as a country we have strong social-democratic roots and the government is supposedly regulating the industry for the good of the consumer. Like the US however, Canada has shifted all the way to the far right of the political spectrum over the last 20 years or so. This means "government regulation" nowadays equates merely to "you have to bribe officials to get your permit." All price increases are basically rubber-stamped by the government, and the issue of competition never comes up.

So in Canada we are in the unenviable situation of having the worst of a Capitalist free market (no protection from the government) and the worst of government intervention (ineffective and corrupt government intervention only adds to the cost of the service without doing anything for the consumer.)
 
I live in canada and i've seen more iPhones than zunes :rolleyes:

Well i've only really ever seen one iPhone, but thats because i don't live in a major city like Vancouver or Toronto, there are tonnes there i'm sure, and i've heard so also.

But the zune isn't available in canada is it?
Yet i don't endlessly hear people complaining about that.

i have only sold 2 zunes at my work (best Buy)

and 1 off them came back a week later..and they bought an iPod!
 
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