iPod and WMA Functionality

[iPC]

Re: Re: actually…

Originally posted by neoelectronaut
Wait, VLC plays WMVs?

Wow, maybe I should uninstall Windows Media Player.


.....only if it wasn't for the streaming media.

mplayer for os x is even better than vlc.

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/

http://mplayerosx.sourceforge.net/

 

[iPC]

Originally posted by ccuilla
Exactly correct.

No one is saying for Apple to not support AAC anymore. We are saying for Apple's players need to have the capability to play windows formats, ogg, etc. AAC and MP3 are not enough. The iTMS would still sell only AAC.

Again, most Mac users just don't understand choice. It's not a Windows versus Mac thing at all...

 

[jasonbw]

Originally posted by Cochrane
That WMA is in there ain't new. Portal Player has been claiming "all chips with WMA support" for two years and more, so even if Apple had an own chip only for themselves it wouldn't be a surprise if it supports WMA and it does.

What I think is interesting, is the OGG support mentioned above. Why isn't that active? Maybe because Apple would then have a rival to AAC.

ogg is not a rival to aac, ogg cannot be protected. if enough people requested it, i'm fairly certain that apple would activate it.

 

[nagromme]

WMA not superior

http://www6.tomshardware.com/consumer/20020712/2u4u-05.html

The green line is the original music spectrum. Guess which format is closest? AAC in blue.

MP3 is the worst in red, with WMA good--but not AS good as AAC--in the middle in yellow.

Apple should NOT support WMA because that will be turning the whole industry over to Microsoft mediocrity--not from the specifics of the format, but due to giving MS the control they seek over everything.

 

[ccuilla]

Re: Re: Re: Re: WMA works everywhere but the iPod

Originally posted by jocknerd
It might be cheaper. Competition is good.

There appears to be a lot of competitors already, yet they music is still NOT cheaper. They are selling for the same price.

Why is this?

I suspect, if our information on the cost structures are accurate at all, we know. Margins are already razor thin.

The dot-com days of selling at a loss and making it up in volume are over. I hope.

They all have basically the same selection of music as well.

So why do you want another store?

- Price?
- Quality?
- Service?
- Convenience?

Where does iTMS not meet or beat its competitors?

 

[ccuilla]

Originally posted by iPC
No one is saying for Apple to not support AAC anymore. We are saying for Apple's players need to have the capability to play windows formats, ogg, etc. AAC and MP3 are not enough. The iTMS would still sell only AAC.

You don't get it though. If the #1 music player (iPod) supported WMA...what is the POINT of having AAC? None. AAC would be dead in a year.

Originally posted by iPC
Again, most Mac users just don't understand choice.

Don't be a moron with such stupid statements. I am a Mac user and I "understand" choice quite well, thank you very much.

You're right...it is about choice. But what choices do you want? What will you gain with those choices?

Media format? Store? Player?

Those are the possible choices...what will you gain with those choices?

 

[ganryu]

Originally posted by iPC
No one is saying for Apple to not support AAC anymore. We are saying for Apple's players need to have the capability to play windows formats, ogg, etc. AAC and MP3 are not enough. The iTMS would still sell only AAC.

Again, most Mac users just don't understand choice. It's not a Windows versus Mac thing at all...

You have a choice to NOT buy an iPod.

If MS is all about choices, they wouldn't be found guilty of being an illegal monopoly.

 

[applebum]

Re: The problem is we as consumers are idiots

Originally posted by jocknerd
We shouldn't be purchasing any music whatsoever that is not CD quality or contains DRM. We should be insisting on pure CD quality music to download without any DRM restrictions whatsoever. Hell, I'm as guilty as the next person. I've spent over $100 on iTMS. Its convenient. But it almost makes me sick to think I'm paying for inferior quality music. We're paying almost the same price to download music as we would pay for the CD. Now there is no room to offer us CD-quality download without it costing us more than actually going out and purchasing the CD itself. Something's wrong here and once again, we the consumer, are being led around by our purse strings.

The only way we are idiots is if we are buying "inferior" music with no value. I personally buy music this way because I already have over 500 cds. Do you know how hard it is to find space for all those things? I have moved a couple of times, and what a pain in the a**. Now I can put those 500 cds on on little bitty iPod and my computer. I can now take all my music with me on a trip. Couldn't do that before. Of those 500 cds, probaly only 25% of them are worth the money I paid, since I only like 1 or 2 songs on the whole cd. With iTunes, I like every song I buy. So what it's lossy - my ears aren't good enough to hear the missing information. I think they sound just fine. I am not an idiot, because I have thought through my purchases, and there is plenty of value in buying in this format. Now if someone is buying while thinking it is truly worthless, that is idiotic.

 

[billyboy]

The more that DRM-ed CDs become the norm, the more strength to the elbow of iTunes Music Stores, because itms is basically the dl version of the drm-ed CD with the added versatility of being available on a per track basis. The music industry push for DRM CD's means the CD is going to fizzle out over the next few years and only audiophiles will be interested in them, much like only a minority are interested in vinyl now.

With relation to WMA blah blah blah, Apple are in a very strong position. Remember they launched this industry, Steve Jobs is Mr big wig in the game and the business plan is working. If the opposition turn up the heat, Apple can draw on their strengths to retaliate quickly ie they are a hardware company making great software, brand awareness to burn and with $4.5bn in the bank they can turn on a sixpence to keep up the heat.

I reckon iTunes will eventually get more plug-ins to convert any format to AAC, MP3 or AIFF, but the iPod will surely remain an open standards only player - the aggro at the moment is from those consumers shouting for choice and the ability to play their music on whatever mp3 player they want. The trouble for them is that it looks as though they are going to be a minority part of the equation when the iPodmini gets going. So Apple have no reason to be listening to that sector just yet. If HP bottled out of WMA at the last minute, imagine who else might be popping a question to Apple with a view to similar tie ins.


Let us hope though that Steve Jobs isnt as nasty as other dominant entrepreneurs and does what he can to accomodate the sizeable minority - EDIT

Because they are all potential Mac buyers, Apple's other little line of hardware if I remember rightly.

 

[bellychris]

I don't understand supporting wma. The ipod supports plenty of the standards they should support. AAC, mp3, etc. Maybe we should put the blame on the other stores that decided to to support wma. I wonder if microsoft had any pull on what format these music stores should use?

 

[mcclint]

wma is obviously part of Apple's plan

Show Package Contents for the iTunes icon and navigate to Contents/Resources and you will find a file called iTunes-wma.icns open it in Preview and you'll see Apple already has plans to support wma files in iTunes. When? well that's the $64,000 question.

 

[IndyGopher]

Originally posted by jakeludington
Buyers shouldn't have to think about what they can do with files upfront. We don't want to read the label to see where the files will work. If I have a CD, I know it will play in a CD player. If I have a DVD, I know it will play in a DVD player. If I have a VHS tape, I know it plays in my VCR. If I have a digital music file, who knows where it will play.

Except that not one of those statements is true. Lots of protected CD's don't work in older CD players. DVD's have to be the same region code as the players, and I could box up and send you a hundred Beta videocassettes that won't play in your VHS VCR.
Now, if you are saying the utopian ideal would be that any piece of media you pick up would work in any media player, well duh. It's not the case, though, and it certainly didn't start with Apple.

 

[MrMacMan]

Re: wma is obviously part of Apple's plan

Originally posted by mcclint
Show Package Contents for the iTunes icon and navigate to Contents/Resources and you will find a file called iTunes-wma.icns open it in Preview and you'll see Apple already has plans to support wma files in iTunes. When? well that's the $64,000 question.

They have been there since the orignal Os 9 iTunes...

I mean since like iTunes 2 or whatever.


Waayy long ago, still no support.



BTW, come on brilliant hacker!

Come on!

 

[gwangung]

Originally posted by iPC
No one is saying for Apple to not support AAC anymore. We are saying for Apple's players need to have the capability to play windows formats, ogg, etc. AAC and MP3 are not enough. The iTMS would still sell only AAC.

Again, most Mac users just don't understand choice. It's not a Windows versus Mac thing at all...

Auugh!!!! It >>IS<< a windows vs. Mac thing!

WMA support removes any pressure to use AAC. No pressure to use AAC means WMA gains support and will eventually win vs. AAC because of the majority of the market will use the codec that's built into the system of the computer they use.

Auugggh!

 

[wHo_tHe]

AAC support w/o Fairplay means no native iTMS

Originally posted by alset
As for your bit about other players supporting AAC, you say it as if Apple controls the liscensing for AAC and can shut everyone out of the market to keep the format iPod only. I won't respond to this, other than to say that you should pay attention to the market. Oh, hell, I'll provide some links, too. (1 , 2 , 3 ) These are without digging.

Dan, the players you cite support AAC, but not the Fairplay DRM, of which Apple does indeed control the licensing.

 

[0 and A ai]

Creative, iRiver, Rio, Napster, Gateway, Dell, Archos, Audivox, Audible, Casio, CenDyne, Bantam, Intel, Samsung, TDK, Sanyo, and many others all support protected WMA.

Yes, many of those players suck. The first 6 companies on that list all make players that are good enough to compete with the iPod at better price points.
Creative, iRiver, Rio, Napster, Gateway, Dell, Archos, Audivox, Audible, Casio, CenDyne, Bantam, Intel, Samsung, TDK, Sanyo, and many others all support protected WMA.

If they are good enough to compete with ipod and are cheaper why aren't they even coming close to the ipods market share?

 

[alset]

Re: AAC support w/o Fairplay means no native iTMS

Originally posted by wHo_tHe
Dan, the players you cite support AAC, but not the Fairplay DRM, of which Apple does indeed control the licensing.

Yes, but the poster to whom I was responding had this to say:

If you want the AAC format to thrive, don't blame Microsoft. Convince the powers that be at Apple to do a hard sell on other device manufacturers. Of course that won't happen. If other players supported AAC, people wouldn't buy as many iPods, because the could get a "good enough" player for a fraction of the cost.

My links were not in the section of my post that dealt with DRM.

Dan

 

[alset]

What is being completely forgotten, in all of this, is that the iPod is the number one selling portable music device. Apple holds all the cards, for the moment. They can support whatever they want. Don't blame Apple for not making a player to support WMA, blame other stores for not selling in a format that the installed user base can take advantage of.

Actually, this is even better - don't blame anyone. Just vote with your dollars, have a cup of cocoa and take a nap.

Dan

 

[iPC]

Originally posted by gwangung
Auugh!!!! It >>IS<< a windows vs. Mac thing!

WMA support removes any pressure to use AAC. No pressure to use AAC means WMA gains support and will eventually win vs. AAC because of the majority of the market will use the codec that's built into the system of the computer they use.

Auugggh!

You guys really need to get a clue. The iPod being able to play wma has nothing to do with how well the iTMS is going to do. Apple is negotiating contracts with the big 5, as well as others, on what music it will sell in the iTMS. The iTMS only sells AAC with DRM. A big factor in these contracts is the DRM that Apple is using, not the fact that it is AAC or not. iTMS only supports iPods. The iPod does not care where the data comes from. It would be nice if it didn't care what format the data was in.

In the end, DRM is a bad idea. Whether it is Apple's, Microsoft's, or someone elses; IT STILL SUCKS. Period.

 

[ccuilla]

Originally posted by iPC
In the end, DRM is a bad idea. Whether it is Apple's, Microsoft's, or someone elses; IT STILL SUCKS. Period.

And in the end...It's ALL about the DRM. That's the game here.

 

[jocknerd]

Originally posted by iPC
You guys really need to get a clue. The iPod being able to play wma has nothing to do with how well the iTMS is going to do. Apple is negotiating contracts with the big 5, as well as others, on what music it will sell in the iTMS. The iTMS only sells AAC with DRM. A big factor in these contracts is the DRM that Apple is using, not the fact that it is AAC or not. iTMS only supports iPods. The iPod does not care where the data comes from. It would be nice if it didn't care what format the data was in.

In the end, DRM is a bad idea. Whether it is Apple's, Microsoft's, or someone elses; IT STILL SUCKS. Period.

DRM is like the Patriot Act. Slowly erode your freedoms until you forget that you had freedoms.

 

[ccuilla]

Originally posted by jocknerd
DRM is like the Patriot Act. Slowly erode your freedoms until you forget that you had freedoms.

That seems a bit harsh. In Apple's case, in particular, I think they are legitimately trying to balance the (true) needs and desires of all parties into a reasonable win-win-win situation. Copyright holders rights are protected. Fair use is supported. Apple makes money.

It is important for people on all sides of this debate to realize that copyright law is (or at least was) about providing creators with SOME level of monopoly over their works for a LIMITED time along with FAIR (reasonable) use rights for users of copyrighted materials.

The "everything should be free and unencumbered" crowd doesn't want restrictions on ANYthing. Well guess what...that isn't a realistic position in a society with more than one person.

The "I own it and I want to control everything you do with it, every minute" crowd is equally dubious. This is a strategy that will fail. Period.

With digital materials that can be copied WITHOUT any degradation of quality thousands of times, very cheaply, something needs to be in place to balance all party's concerns.

Now, there is another argument that copyright owners out not rely upon income from such easily/cheaply re-produceable products. Okay. Fine. But how then? Musicians? Performance. Fair. Book authors? Hmmm. Movie and TV makers? Again, live performance? Maybe. Software makers? Actually writing the code (performance)?

 

[dgdosen]

Re: The problem is we as consumers are idiots

Originally posted by jocknerd
We shouldn't be purchasing any music whatsoever that is not CD quality or contains DRM. We should be insisting on pure CD quality music to download without any DRM restrictions whatsoever. Hell, I'm as guilty as the next person. I've spent over $100 on iTMS. Its convenient. But it almost makes me sick to think I'm paying for inferior quality music. We're paying almost the same price to download music as we would pay for the CD. Now there is no room to offer us CD-quality download without it costing us more than actually going out and purchasing the CD itself. Something's wrong here and once again, we the consumer, are being led around by our purse strings.

What a heated and sometimes irrational discussion. I use both Windows and Apple PCs, - I work and develop on Windows, play on Apple. I own an iPod and don't care what format my music is purchased in as long as it's extremely high-fidelity. - I envision a day (very soon) where my home network can play video (like Tivo) and music from a shared central source in my home. I'll want to make sure that my music is in a format good enough to listen on my home stereo system.

I've converted my music collection (about 300 CDs) to 168 bit MP3 format (which is fine for the iPod), over the course of time. I believe I'll wind up ripping those again into some lossless format (which today, only WMA allows) that will be readily usable on all players, or at least convertible to some other lossless format.

It is easy for me to rip a CD and throw it in a box (I've got my CD collection in two book cartons) and forget it. Which is what I plan to keep doing in the immediate future.

I'm fine with not being able to copy a CD if a friend of mine bought it. That's protects the music industry's rights. I'm only OK with DRM, however, if it allows me from to play music on any platform of choice, because I need to protect my rights.

Until then, I'll stick with MP3s and occasionally bring down a free ITMS song because I drink Pepsi, or maybe because I wanted a song (like OutKast). I won't be buying an album because that's my choice. When I can, in the way I want to, however, I will gladly fork over lots of cash to the vendor that gives me that opportunity. I'm betting there are many other people out there like me, and am betting there are companies like Apple and Microsoft that want that money. Users shouldn't be locked into any vendor for music formats or DRM formats.

 

[ccuilla]

Re: Re: The problem is we as consumers are idiots

Originally posted by louden
Users shouldn't be locked into any vendor for music formats or DRM formats.

But we probably will be, just as we are locked into OS or application vendors.

 

[dgdosen]

Re: Re: Re: The problem is we as consumers are idiots

Originally posted by ccuilla
But we probably will be, just as we are locked into OS or application vendors.

But we're not for DVDs, CDs, Phono Albums, 35 MM Cameras, Unleaded Driving Automobiles, etc...