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REALITY CHECK:

When I read about the hand-wringing over the fidelity of AAC vs AIFF for a portable player, I have to laugh. We are talking about a portable device for listening to tunes on, not an audiophile listening device for a studio.

Before you complain about the "lossiness" of AAC, I would ask a few questions first:

1) Are you listening on the provided earbuds or a set of $300 studio headphones?
2) How much ambient noise is there in your car/gym/neighborhood when you are using it?
3) How "perfect" does the playback have to be for you to happily continue jogging/lifting/driving?

Two decades ago a high-end Sony Walkman playing audio cassettes (with Dolby NR--woo hoo...) cost almost as much as an iPod Mini, and people loved them. Tape hiss like a DC-10 at lift-off, warble, flutter, and the occasional munched tape.

One decade ago, the Discman was the rage. Great bitrate, but a joke to run with--skip to my lu, my darlin'.

Now we have a device that is no bigger than a box of Chicklets, holds the best songs from every album you'll ever own, and plays back at least 25 minutes without a single skip. Oh, and the artists who write and record all that music have their intellectual property rights protected--all while allowing the user extremely liberal rights to the use of that music.

The whining is ridiculous. For what it is intended for, AAC is playback quality overkill, especially when in noisy environments using lo-fi ear buds.

Apple's DRM scheme is the perfect balance between the artist and the user who buys his/her music. I don't trust MS to keep its controlling mits off of that relationship. I do, however, trust Apple to keep that balance intact without screwing it up for everyone.

I am a musician who has spent hundreds of hours in a recording studio environment. Yes, I CAN tell the difference between mp3. AAC, and uncompressed 44.1/16bit audio. I just don't care. My expectations for a portable unit are different than those for a home stereo or studio monitors. The playback equipment's ability to broadcast the sound should determine how good the sample rate must be. Earbuds have far more limited frequency response and far less accurate renderings of the audio spectrum than more expensive phones or speakers. For the sheer joy of listening while performing some other task (working out, gardening, housework, long drives, etc.) AAC is fabulous.

Apple's protection schemes are so liberal that they are essentially transparent to a lawful user. Only thieves are frustrated by it. To those of you who hate DRM because you can't steal music as easily as you once did, I say: quit acting like you have some God-given right to all the recorded music of the world. Stealing someone's intellectual property is illegal and immoral. If you don't want to pay for music, then don't: write your own songs.

I am glad Apple turns a deaf ear to the "we must be compatable with MS" crowd. Remember everyone complaining about the $249 price tag for the iPod Mini? "Won't compete--too expensive--we must petition them to drop the price!" was the cry. Well, 100,000 sight-unseen preorders tells me those people were and will continue to be dead-wrong. In two years from now when they sell their millionth iPod Mini, with 70-80% of them sold @ the $249 price point, you should all post your sheepish apologies for whining that Apple didn't give away the store.

I think Apple is on the right track with their iPod strategy. Be the best. Not the biggest. Keep the premium price, but always make it worth the extra expense. Lead--don't follow.
 
Nokia....

I recently was checking out a new Nokia phone that had a built-in MP3 player, and was incredibly impressed to see that it supported mp3 and aac, but not wma.

Maybe Apple has more of a partnership with Nokia than we all think.......
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: The problem is we as consumers are idiots

Originally posted by louden
But we're not for DVDs, CDs, Phono Albums, 35 MM Cameras, Unleaded Driving Automobiles, etc...

True enough.

And we may not be for this new thing (digital, downloadable music). Time will tell. I think there is a strong likelihood that Apple will end up licensing Fairplay to other vendors.

Standards are generally a very good thing, that have been responsible for phenomenal growth in certain industries. The humble screw is a great story.

The problem is, we are early yet, and people are drawing comparisons to more mature marketplaces. Both Apple and MS are trying to establish the standard "screw" of DRM for digital music (perhaps among other things). Right now Apple is leading in this fight (though it is far from over).

I am betting (perhaps foolishly) that Apple has learned its lessons from the past and will likely end up licensing Fairplay to other hardware vendors after much of the profit "cream" has been skimmed. When margins on these devices start to thin, Apple will license Fairplay to hardware vendors for something like $5/device, while retaining a high end "BMW" product line for those of us that really like Apple products.

When this happens you won't be locked into any particular vendor.

The HP deal is a good leading indicator of the "new Apple" in this regard. OEM the actual device is step one in the process. Higher margin than licensing, lower than direct sales of Apple iPods.
 
Fantastic

Apple is right on the money here:

DON'T UNBUNDLE!!

This _is_ very Microsoftian, except that iTMS and the iPod are both superior products (as is AAC). Not to mention that turnabout is fair play.

Hopefully, Apple's gambit will work and they will be able to use their already existing market share to edge WMA and the other online music stores out of the market, and thus sell ridiculously more iPods.

And if it doesn't work? Then Apple merely bails out by releasing a firmware update for WMA playback, and --voila-- no harm done. There were no mistakes made here.
 
Originally posted by 0 and A ai
If they are good enough to compete with ipod and are cheaper why aren't they even coming close to the ipods market share?

They aren't...

Together... sure all of them together will eventually top the iPod... But not today, and not tomorrow.

They are competing sure, every product against products in the same market are competing, they are cheaper, but if you see the WSJ, or the NYT the iPod is still king.


What would make the iPod better?
1. AM/FM Radio -- Sure you have all the song you ever need, but what about when you just want to listen to generic songs on the radio?
2. OGG/Other Codec Support. You don't have to make it *easy* to sync with these files, heck make it hard, but allow it to be done.
 
question

All this talk about AAC vs WMA and what the iPod should support brings me to a question...

iPod can support regular open AAC format, right? Does this mean that it can support AAC with DRM that is NOT Fairplay? In other words, does Apple need to adjust software for that, or can the iPod simply support any AAC file?
 
DRM

Originally posted by jocknerd
DRM is like the Patriot Act. Slowly erode your freedoms until you forget that you had freedoms.
I agree with you on the Patriot Act, but DRM exists because a certain segment of the population feels that they are above paying for products and services produced by others. And *please* don't start with the endless rationales for this behavior. Theft is theft. If you don't think something is worth the price being charged, don't buy it.
 
Originally posted by IndyGopher
Except that not one of those statements is true. Lots of protected CD's don't work in older CD players. DVD's have to be the same region code as the players, and I could box up and send you a hundred Beta videocassettes that won't play in your VHS VCR.
Now, if you are saying the utopian ideal would be that any piece of media you pick up would work in any media player, well duh. It's not the case, though, and it certainly didn't start with Apple.
An NTSC video will most likely not play in a PAL player.
Agree with your gen gist
 
Who says Apple is not licensing ACC/Fairplay?

Here's the first example I have found on the net - here in Oz, the Destra service have stated the following:

"The tracks will also be available in the AAC Format, compatible with iPod and some other devices"

http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,8728989^15306^^nbv^,00.html

Now Destra has traditionally (well, a few months of it's operation) used WMA (protected of course) - now they will also support AAC and to me, it has to be DRMed as well - and if it is compatible with the iPod - it means they licensed something from Apple for it to work.
 
Re: REALITY CHECK

Originally posted by D*I*S_Frontman
When I read about the hand-wringing over the fidelity of AAC vs AIFF for a portable player, I have to laugh. We are talking about a portable device for listening to tunes on, not an audiophile listening device for a studio.

<Snippage>

The whining is ridiculous. For what it is intended for, AAC is playback quality overkill, especially when in noisy environments using lo-fi ear buds.

Thank you. That's the best whiner antidote I've read on this issue. A thoughtful and informed post, unlike most of the others here.
 
Re: wma is obviously part of Apple's plan

Originally posted by mcclint
Show Package Contents for the iTunes icon and navigate to Contents/Resources and you will find a file called iTunes-wma.icns open it in Preview and you'll see Apple already has plans to support wma files in iTunes. When? well that's the $64,000 question.

Obviously part of Apple's plan, eh? I'd say it's obvious you haven't been paying attention in class. That "wma" file has nothing to do with "WMA", as has been noted many, many times on these discussion boards.
 
Re: Re: wma is obviously part of Apple's plan

Originally posted by splashman
Obviously part of Apple's plan, eh? I'd say it's obvious you haven't been paying attention in class. That "wma" file has nothing to do with "WMA", as has been noted many, many times on these discussion boards.

Really? When?
 
DRM

Originally posted by ccuilla
And in the end...It's ALL about the DRM. That's the game here.
Agreed!

At least Apple has implemented a decent compromise with their DRM implementation with their Fairplay ACC encoding.

Sushi
 
Re: AAC support w/o Fairplay means no native iTMS

Originally posted by wHo_tHe
Dan, the players you cite support AAC, but not the Fairplay DRM, of which Apple does indeed control the licensing.



I thought that fairply was licensed by Apple from another company. As in they do not control the fairplay aspect of it, just the retrictions that they put on the files.


Could be wrong.
 
Re: REALITY CHECK:

Originally posted by D*I*S_Frontman
When I read about the hand-wringing over the fidelity of AAC vs AIFF for a portable player, I have to laugh. We are talking about a portable device for listening to tunes on, not an audiophile listening device for a studio.

Before you complain about the "lossiness" of AAC, I would ask a few questions first:

1) Are you listening on the provided earbuds or a set of $300 studio headphones?
2) How much ambient noise is there in your car/gym/neighborhood when you are using it?
3) How "perfect" does the playback have to be for you to happily continue jogging/lifting/driving?

Two decades ago a high-end Sony Walkman playing audio cassettes (with Dolby NR--woo hoo...) cost almost as much as an iPod Mini, and people loved them. Tape hiss like a DC-10 at lift-off, warble, flutter, and the occasional munched tape.

One decade ago, the Discman was the rage. Great bitrate, but a joke to run with--skip to my lu, my darlin'.

Now we have a device that is no bigger than a box of Chicklets, holds the best songs from every album you'll ever own, and plays back at least 25 minutes without a single skip. Oh, and the artists who write and record all that music have their intellectual property rights protected--all while allowing the user extremely liberal rights to the use of that music.

The whining is ridiculous. For what it is intended for, AAC is playback quality overkill, especially when in noisy environments using lo-fi ear buds.

Apple's DRM scheme is the perfect balance between the artist and the user who buys his/her music. I don't trust MS to keep its controlling mits off of that relationship. I do, however, trust Apple to keep that balance intact without screwing it up for everyone.

I am a musician who has spent hundreds of hours in a recording studio environment. Yes, I CAN tell the difference between mp3. AAC, and uncompressed 44.1/16bit audio. I just don't care. My expectations for a portable unit are different than those for a home stereo or studio monitors. The playback equipment's ability to broadcast the sound should determine how good the sample rate must be. Earbuds have far more limited frequency response and far less accurate renderings of the audio spectrum than more expensive phones or speakers. For the sheer joy of listening while performing some other task (working out, gardening, housework, long drives, etc.) AAC is fabulous.

Apple's protection schemes are so liberal that they are essentially transparent to a lawful user. Only thieves are frustrated by it. To those of you who hate DRM because you can't steal music as easily as you once did, I say: quit acting like you have some God-given right to all the recorded music of the world. Stealing someone's intellectual property is illegal and immoral. If you don't want to pay for music, then don't: write your own songs.

I am glad Apple turns a deaf ear to the "we must be compatable with MS" crowd. Remember everyone complaining about the $249 price tag for the iPod Mini? "Won't compete--too expensive--we must petition them to drop the price!" was the cry. Well, 100,000 sight-unseen preorders tells me those people were and will continue to be dead-wrong. In two years from now when they sell their millionth iPod Mini, with 70-80% of them sold @ the $249 price point, you should all post your sheepish apologies for whining that Apple didn't give away the store.

I think Apple is on the right track with their iPod strategy. Be the best. Not the biggest. Keep the premium price, but always make it worth the extra expense. Lead--don't follow.

Look, you're going to have to leave. We just can't have people here who know what they're talking about! If you're not going to play by the rules, then these bitching forums will fall apart.

Seriously, thank you for the very coherent and well supported post.
 
Something people should keep in mind is that Apple's contracts with the labels prohibit iTunes songs to be compatible with non-Apple devices. So even if Apple *wanted* to license their implementation of Fairplay to other manufacturers, they couldn't, at least not with other negotiations.

Regarding DRM and File Trading: No matter how you look at it, DRM is a bad thing for the consumer. While I don't condone or support file sharing, I can understand it. If you don't like the price of something, then you shouldn't buy it. But, in today's world people want instant access to stuff, at the lowest price. The artists and labels should stop prosecuting and alienating their fans, and instead find out *why* the activities are going on, and *how* they can correct the problem and still make money. CD manufacturing and producing costs have gone way, way down over the past decade, yet the CD prices are going up and up and up. Peer to peer was a wonderful invention, and really shows potential for a lot of uses. It also shows how consumers are fed up with high costs and lack of choices, and instead of hiring a team of lawyers to sue 12 year olds who just want the latest song that their friends have, they should instead be hiring people who can "think different" and breathe new life into music and the way it's created, discovered, and distributed.

As for the person that said Apple's DRM is so liberal that the only people that are complaining are the thieves: WRONG. What if I want to play my purchased songs on my TiVo? Sorry, not allowed because Apple won't/can't license Fairplay to 3rd parties. What if I want to use a 3rd party music player *that supports standard AAC files*? Same situation, Fairplay DRM is controlled by Apple so the songs won't work on devices that even support the standard. The same can be said for WMA players and WMA music stores - your stuck to using it in Microsoft-approved devices by manufactuers that pay Microsoft licensing fees (which pretty much means you'll never see an open source player that can play purchased music store tracks from any music store, which is a *bad thing*. Limiting paying customers choices is _always_ a bad thing.)

The ultimate solution would be to allow the downloading of FLAC-like files at low, low fees, that can then be transcoded to *ANY* format *legally* without any limitations. That way, you can purchase a song using a nice interface such as the one by the iTunes music store, but have no limitations as to what devices you can play it on. Ever. Plus you'll have a CD-quality sound file. Have a iPod? Import it to iTunes as a lower quality AAC. Have a MP3CD player? Use toast to encode it as MP3, but keep the same no-loss file on your HD. Audiophile? Have a hardware device that can play the intact music file directly into your stereo's aux-in port. Offering a CD-quality file that has no limitations is the best choice for consumers for past, present, and future device compatibility.

So I guess in conclusion, DRM is a bad thing for everyone. It only limits the choices legit paying customers have (and thus encourages more piracy), and does absofrickenlutly nothing to stop copyright-violating file sharing. But it's not going away until the record industry and the average customer can strike a deal that works for everyone. And in today's American Idol/Top 40/Clear Channel world where the majority of people play "follow the leader" for whatever the latest artist/song/trend are, it's not going to happen, so piracy will continue and the artists and labels will lose, and consumers will keep getting bent over and screwed up the ass with DRM and lawsuits, and in the end, *NOBODY WILL WIN*.

end rant.
 
just a lil off topic, but i hope sony's music store uses AAC. they are one of the supporters and designers of the AAC format. And I think sony would be smart if they use AAC and come out with their own music player that supports AAC. Heck- they went alone with the whole ATRAC thing, why not differentiate themselves in the Windows world with and AAC player (of course there is HP). But anywhoo...
 
RE: Reality Check

"When I read about the hand-wringing over the fidelity of AAC vs AIFF for a portable player, I have to laugh. We are talking about a portable device for listening to tunes on, not an audiophile listening device for a studio."

I agree with everything else you wrote. You made the assumption that the iTMS is just for the iPod. I have no problem whatsoever with Apple's quality of 128K AAC for use on the iPod or in environments where it would be used...but...

I hate CDs, I don't want to use them or own them or buy them anymore. I just transferred my entire 3,000+ CD collection to a set of hard drives. I would like to never have to buy another CD again. The iTMS allows me to do that today, but besides being limited in titles, the songs are not the quality level of CDs and I can hear the difference on my home system.

The time to download, and the space required are insignificant between 128K and 192K, but if I can hear the difference, any difference, it is significant.

That being said, because of everything else, it's still far better than anything else, including CDs.
 
Originally posted by dricci

Regarding DRM and File Trading: No matter how you look at it, DRM is a bad thing for the consumer.


I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise. DRM isn't supposed to be good for the consumer, it's supposed to be good for the artist and those trying to make a profit on a product (which, btw, is OK, and not immoral)

While I don't condone or support file sharing, I can understand it. If you don't like the price of something, then you shouldn't buy it. But, in today's world people want instant access to stuff, at the lowest price. The artists and labels should stop prosecuting and alienating their fans, and instead find out *why* the activities are going on, and *how* they can correct the problem and still make money. CD manufacturing and producing costs have gone way, way down over the past decade, yet the CD prices are going up and up and up. Peer to peer was a wonderful invention, and really shows potential for a lot of uses. It also shows how consumers are fed up with high costs and lack of choices, and instead of hiring a team of lawyers to sue 12 year olds who just want the latest song that their friends have, they should instead be hiring people who can "think different" and breathe new life into music and the way it's created, discovered, and distributed.

Ok, I whole heartedly disagree. There is no mistaking why people use P2P file sharing over buying a CD. It's not because P2P is easier (though that is great), It's not like a large % of kids don't hang out at or live near malls. It's because it's *FREE*. The only way to "compete" per say without legal action, is to offer the same thing, and make it a better deal. Now explain to me how, without legal action, they are supposed to persuade people away from instance free downloads?

As for the person that said Apple's DRM is so liberal that the only people that are complaining are the thieves:

Those people were wrong. There are people that complain, as you are now, they just don't have a valid reason. If Apple were trying to replace a system that already allowed what you are talking about, you'd have a right to complain. As it is, Apple is offering another alternative to buying CDs.
You seem to forget that Apple, Artists, and the recording companies are not in existence to MAKE YOU A HAPPY COSTUMER. No, the fact that at times you are happy is a side effect of them wanting to stay in business.

WRONG. What if I want to play my purchased songs on my TiVo? Sorry, not allowed because Apple won't/can't license Fairplay to 3rd parties. What if I want to use a 3rd party music player *that supports standard AAC files*? Same situation, Fairplay DRM is controlled by Apple so the songs won't work on devices that even support the standard. The same can be said for WMA players and WMA music stores - your stuck to using it in Microsoft-approved devices by manufactuers that pay Microsoft licensing fees (which pretty much means you'll never see an open source player that can play purchased music store tracks from any music store, which is a *bad thing*. Limiting paying customers choices is _always_ a bad thing.)

Always a bad thing...for the consumer, not for the producer. Microsoft, the symbol for no choice, is doing QUITE well right now.

The ultimate solution would be to allow the downloading of FLAC-like files at low, low fees, that can then be transcoded to *ANY* format *legally* without any limitations. That way, you can purchase a song using a nice interface such as the one by the iTunes music store, but have no limitations as to what devices you can play it on. Ever. Plus you'll have a CD-quality sound file. Have a iPod? Import it to iTunes as a lower quality AAC. Have a MP3CD player? Use toast to encode it as MP3, but keep the same no-loss file on your HD. Audiophile? Have a hardware device that can play the intact music file directly into your stereo's aux-in port. Offering a CD-quality file that has no limitations is the best choice for consumers for past, present, and future device compatibility.

That is a great idea. Now if only businesses thought it would actually make them money...See, that's the deal, and where you argument appears to fall through in my eyes. You are expecting MORE from a company's alternative to the current system (that being CD purchase). And you feel you have a right to complain about it, and make demands, on the basis that you are the costumer. see closing argument...

So I guess in conclusion, DRM is a bad thing for everyone. It only limits the choices legit paying customers have (and thus encourages more piracy), and does absofrickenlutly nothing to stop copyright-violating file sharing. But it's not going away until the record industry and the average customer can strike a deal that works for everyone. And in today's American Idol/Top 40/Clear Channel world where the majority of people play "follow the leader" for whatever the latest artist/song/trend are, it's not going to happen, so piracy will continue and the artists and labels will lose, and consumers will keep getting bent over and screwed up the ass with DRM and lawsuits, and in the end, *NOBODY WILL WIN*.

Today vs 2 years ago...
2 Years ago we had P2P, we didn't have legal online downloading, we had to go to the store and buy a CD for music.

Today, the ONLY difference is that the Illegal actions of P2P are rightfully being persuade by the law, and companies are making ADDITIONS to the ways that consumers can purchase music.

Now you claim that choice is the best way, well, you have more choices then you did 2 years ago. So what if current businesses don't find it financially viable to meet ALL your needs when it comes to how you want to purchase other peoples music, so what.

Companies exist to make money, as I said, costumer satisfaction is only a side effect of that. The only thing that would actually make me angry, and make me feel I have the right to complain is if -
A: A company was doing something shady to make a profit at the expense of costumers. I do not believe Apple is doing this
B: A company was trying to replace an already set and more beneficial to the costumer way of doing things. Apple isn't doing this either, they are making an addition to the way we already purchase music.

In closing. You have some great ideas, I agree that that would be a great perfect world. Unfortunately Apple, Record companies, and Artists need to make money. Apple isn't run by a munch of idiots, I'm sure they have thought of the things you speak of. But until they think it will be good for their company, they will not make MORE additions to the system that is music distribution.

Take a look at music distrabution in the 1600s. It was called get on your horse and hope the band coming though town was good. The alternatives are getting bettter, and as far as I can see, we are still taking steps forward, not backward.

[end rant]

Tyler
Earendil
 
Originally posted by Photorun
Wow, and the person who wrote that article is a complete and total DUMBASS!!! He should wake the f*** up and smell the java, does he use a peecee?!? Has he no idea how locked into EVERYTHING he is on that WIntel piece of crap he's using?!? What a moron!!! Proves nothing except just how CLUELESS people are!

Hmmm, as a mac user with an ipod, I find your comments truly without any class. While I agree that the writer doesn't get the complete picture, I wouldn't resort to name calling as you have.

Also, on your sig... moveon.org buys ads on the TV station where I work. Ads pay my salary. Moveon.org pays me to support GWB. :) Ha!
 
Originally posted by dricci
Something people should keep in mind is that Apple's contracts with the labels prohibit iTunes songs to be compatible with non-Apple devices. So even if Apple *wanted* to license their implementation of Fairplay to other manufacturers, they couldn't, at least not with other negotiations.

Just curious... Can you really refer to iTunes for Windows as a "device"? Just curious... Or is this only in reference to portable players. Let's see if we can get a Windows PC smaller than the iPod and can still run iTunes on it, we will have circumvented the contract! :)
 
Originally posted by Earendil
I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise. DRM isn't supposed to be good for the consumer, it's supposed to be good for the artist and those trying to make a profit on a product (which, btw, is OK, and not immoral)

But as a consumer who is actually supporting the artist, I shouldn't be punshed. DRM on CDs and downloaded files won't stop file trading. The #1 reason being that DRM can *always* be circumvented, and #2 I'd be willing to bet that the majority of files on the Peer to Peer networks come directly from within the labels and other affiliated companies themselves, who have direct access. How else can you explain that a good number of songs are released to Peer 2 Peer networks before the album is available for sale? And it only takes one file, then it can be copied hundreds of thousands of times, so by the time the CD is released, what's the point of the CD DRM? The only thing it's limiting at that time is what the *paying* customer can do with it. Even if the person were to circumvent the DRM and rip it and upload it to a network, it wouldn't make any difference - it's already there! The labels and artists need to treat their paying customers with respect, not like thieves, or else they may just turn into thieves out of spite (I've seen this happen to many people I know.). My point is don't piss off your customers, especially with DRM methods that won't change a damn thing other than John Doe's opinion of you when he finds out he can't rip his new CD he just spend $20 to his iPod (looks like he'll have to break out the sharpie and "fix" the CD or just *gasp* go on a p2p network and download the song he legally has a right to hear!). Same thing with DRMed Music Store files - what's it going to matter if the wma or aac file you buy isn't encrypted or DRMed - the song is already available on the peer to peer network, so your addition of +1 of the same thing being shared by millions of other people won't make a difference in the big picture. Again, the only thing it will do is limit the choices of the customer.

Ok, I whole heartedly disagree. There is no mistaking why people use P2P file sharing over buying a CD. It's not because P2P is easier (though that is great),

Easier than what? Easier than going out to the store and buying a CD? Well I'd have to disagree - Opening up a program and clicking a button is a lot easier than getting in your car and driving through traffic, battling the mall parking lot, and then dragging yourself to a store that may or may not even have the CD you want

It's not like a large % of kids don't hang out at or live near malls.

Don't be fooled by "kids" being the only file sharers - I know *far* more adults (30+) who download than I do people 18 and under.

It's because it's *FREE*.

Yes! And this isn't necessarily a bad thing. A good portion of the people I've talked to download their favorite band's music first, and then go to the store when they get a chance. But no, they don't always buy everything they download. Why? because they can't afford to with current CD prices! Sure, they *could* go to an online music store and maybe get a discount, but what if they're under 18 and don't have a credit card, or want to use the song on a 3rd party player or their TiVo, or their PDA, etc etc etc? Or heck, just for the sake of argument, what if they use Linux, Mac OS 9 or <insert any non Mac OS X or Windows OS). Their only option then is to go buy the CD at full price. And this can be expensive, because if somebody likes an artist, they don't want just one 99 cent song, they want all the good tracks on the album!

The only way to "compete" per say without legal action, is to offer the same thing, and make it a better deal. Now explain to me how, without legal action, they are supposed to persuade people away from instance free downloads?

Well, I can't give you a definite answer, because I don't know what goes through every person's mind who downloads music for free. Everyone has different reasons. But here's some things that would get a *larger* percent of people buying music rather than downloading it and not paying:

-Lower album costs
-High quality downloads with less restrictions - This is ESENTIAL if you ever want to get more people paying, because right now the music stores are leaving out the people who want to play by the rules, but have NO OPTIONS (not even CDs anymore, thanks DRM!) because they either want cd-quality audio, or their OS or device or even entire _country_ isn't even supported.
-Less law suits - Do you seriously think suing people is going to stop P2P? If anything it'll just piss of more and more people from ever having respect for artists and the RIAA, et all again, and encourage more downloading. The customer is always right - listen to what they want.

As it is, Apple is offering another alternative to buying CDs.
You seem to forget that Apple, Artists, and the recording companies are not in existence to MAKE YOU A HAPPY COSTUMER.

YES THEY ARE! If you piss off people, they WON'T BUY YOUR PRODUCT! I *won't* do business with someone that treats me like a criminal. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

No, the fact that at times you are happy is a side effect of them wanting to stay in business.

And if they want me to support them by giving them my money, then they better keep me happy.

Always a bad thing...for the consumer, not for the producer. Microsoft, the symbol for no choice, is doing QUITE well right now.

But what are they doing well at? Providing a low cost desktop. Sure, you don't have many choices with their bundled system software, but you can put *a lot* of 3rd party stuff on top of that which will make things work the way you want them. If Microsoft's next OS only worked with Microsoft software and allowed no 3rd party developer support, do you seriously think people would just say "Okay" and deal with it, or start looking for other options? But this is starting to get off the main topic... moving on.

That is a great idea. Now if only businesses thought it would actually make them money...

Businesses might think that this would make them money, but are limited by the monopoly that is the RIAA. Do you think the RIAA is going to allow downloads of non-DRM files any time soon, even if people paid $10 per track? Nope, because they're stuck with the notion that DRM will change everything, even though it's been proven time and time again DRM does *nothing* to stop pirates, and *everything* to annoy and limit paying customers.

See, that's the deal, and where you argument appears to fall through in my eyes. You are expecting MORE from a company's alternative to the current system (that being CD purchase). And you feel you have a right to complain about it, and make demands, on the basis that you are the costumer.

Why can't I demand more from a company, and want change, and the industry to move forward, instead of taking 10 leaps backwards? I *AM* the customer, I legally purchase the companies' goods, and as their paying customer I think I have the right to say it's time to move forward if you want to keep my business. If you're not listening to what your customers want, and instead doing the exact opposite and pissing them off by the thousands every day, then you're making some very, very, bad business decisions, and need to pause and reflect.

Today, the ONLY difference is that the Illegal actions of P2P are rightfully being persuade by the law, and companies are making ADDITIONS to the ways that consumers can purchase music.

The law can't change people's opinions - You can sue all you want, but in the end you'll just end up forever ruining any respect you had from a lot of your former loyal customers. Sure, there are music stores, but they're still very limited, unlike a CD. And they're only available to certain countries, and people with credit cards, etc etc.

Now you claim that choice is the best way, well, you have more choices then you did 2 years ago. So what if current businesses don't find it financially viable to meet ALL your needs when it comes to how you want to purchase other peoples music, so what.

But they're not the choices that the majority of the downloaders want, obviously. It's a start, but a lot of changes need to be made. "So what" Seems to be a very arrogant attitude to take towards your customers. Work with customers to "get with the times" and give them what they want, instead of pushing them away and forever losing their respect.

Companies exist to make money, as I said, costumer satisfaction is only a side effect of that.

But is a company that keeps pushing itself to modernize and get with the times and meet the demands of many of it's current (and former) loyal customers going to get more customers (and thus, more money) than a giant monopoly that feels it can do no wrong, even though they refuse to change and keep wondering why everyone is pissed off at them?

B: A company was trying to replace an already set and more beneficial to the costumer way of doing things. Apple isn't doing this either, they are making an addition to the way we already purchase music.

Yes, Apple isn't doing this. But the record companies are putting their DRM and Copy protection on more and more CDs, which as I've said above does *nothing* to stop piracy.

In closing to this, I just want to reiterate that the law cannot change people's opinions and habits. We should *not* be in a situation we are in right now regarding music and peer to peer. The RIAA and labels need to start taking the steps to fix the problem at it's source rather than only trying to treat the symptoms with lawsuits.
 
Originally posted by Scottgfx
Just curious... Can you really refer to iTunes for Windows as a "device"? Just curious... Or is this only in reference to portable players. Let's see if we can get a Windows PC smaller than the iPod and can still run iTunes on it, we will have circumvented the contract! :)

oops - I meant apple devices and software, basically any apple product. my bad :D

(although.. you may be able to get a tiny tablet PC working with a PDA-sized display, but looking at iTunes on it (or anything else for that matter) would be painful :p )
 
Other players besides iPod

I've bought two other mp3 players because they were "cheaper" than the iPod. One worked on and off for a year, and now sits in my drawer as the power jack was damaged; the battery never worked for more than 20 minutes, and half the time the player ignored commands from the controls. I was able to take the hard drive out and use it in another enclosure, but I consider the player $100 flushed down the toilet!

The other is a MP3 CD player that sounds decent for books on tape, but not very good for music (a Rio something or other). Luckily I got it for $29. And I listen to a lot of books on tape, so it's not too much of a loss.

To me, regardless of the format, iPods are the best player out there, and I won't buy anything else. For my music collection, it's all in MP3 (mostly 128 kbps) and I can play them on the iPod. If I buy any music in the future, I will get it from the iTMS.
 
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