Ireland to Formally Appeal $14 Billion Apple Tax Ruling This Week

[H2SO4]

Your example needs to have an added situation.

Say you are looking to rent a house and a landlord comes along asking you to rent from him, if you are bringing jobs to the neighborhood, which makes everything around it prosper. House values go up, you may even employ more people, etc.
You rent the house that you employ all these people in, because the landlord instead of the going rate of $ 1,500 a month offers it for $ 750. The landlord then gets taxed on the $ 750 of rental income.

You move in for $ 750. You pay the employees and the payroll taxes.

Years later the city tells the landlord: Hey, by renting for only $ 750, which is way under what the houses rent for in this neighborhood you are avoiding paying taxes on $ 1,500.

Pay up for the difference. Then the country joins and says the city did not have the right to offer the house under market value.

You rented the place knowing $ 750 was a good deal and had an agreement with the landlord.

So, why would I have to deal with the city now, when I legally rented the place, bringing jobs and did nothing wrong, but taking advantage of the landlords offer?

Almost. The landlord is bound whether he likes it by the laws of the land and that applies whether or not they change. Same as happens to all regular people. Sometimes stuff happens. This is one of those times.
You may have an agreement that you have a smoking bar in a gambling club or a men only gym. If the law of the land changes and you have an agreement with your clients its quite possible that your agreement is nullified.

 

[Thunderhawks]

The EU isn't going after Apple. They are going after Ireland. The EU position is that the deal Ireland granted was contrary to EU law on state aid. Now Apple and other taxpayers aren't necessarily innocent victims here, there's a very legitimate argument that tax structures in place across a number of large multinationals lacks substance and artificially relocate profits and costs, but for now the EU case is solely against a member state for what it claims is a breach of state aid rules.

Not only that. These kinds of deals go on everywhere in the world.
How come we do not hear much about the other companies there, and it is made out as if only Apple does this?

The US has countless scandalous procedures that allow accounting losses for company mergers (Pfizer)

The EU will not be able to convince Ireland to pay up. Before that happens there will be another brexit , as somebody posted.

The best they can hope for is that Ireland would be willing to gradually raise their tax rates and bring them in line with other countries, until "state aid rules" are eliminated.

At that point Apple and others will vanish to the next tax haven.

The specialists in large corporations are 10 times ahead of governments and any new law will be sidestepped
immediately, unless court rulings "fix" any possible "interpretation".

We are watching a cat and mouse game.
[doublepost=1478633461][/doublepost]

Almost. The landlord is bound whether he likes it by the laws of the land and that applies whether or not they change. Same as happens to all regular people. Sometimes stuff happens. This is one of those times.
You may have an agreement that you have a smoking bar in a gambling club or a men only gym. If the law of the land changes and you have an agreement with your clients its quite possible that your agreement is nullified.

Yes, but there is no law of the land other than the country telling the city and landlord that renting under market prices is not ok. It is an attempt to make everybody compete on the same terms, so basically NOBODY can rent under market value.

That will never be possible, as there are too many things to consider.

 

[H2SO4]

Not only that. These kinds of deals go on everywhere in the world.
How come we do not hear much about the other companies there, and it is made out as if only Apple does this?

The US has countless scandalous procedures that allow accounting losses for company mergers (Pfizer)

The EU will not be able to convince Ireland to pay up. Before that happens there will be another brexit , as somebody posted.

The best they can hope for is that Ireland would be willing to gradually raise their tax rates and bring them in line with other countries, until "state aid rules" are eliminated.

At that point Apple and others will vanish to the next tax haven.

The specialists in large corporations are 10 times ahead of governments and any new law will be sidestepped
immediately, unless court rulings "fix" any possible "interpretation".

We are watching a cat and mouse game.
[doublepost=1478633461][/doublepost]

Yes, but there is no law of the land other than the country telling the city and landlord that renting under market prices is not ok. It is an attempt to make everybody compete on the same terms, so basically NOBODY can rent under market value.

That will never be possible, as there are too many things to consider.

Which means the playing field is level for all of us?

 

[Kroo]

They're likely not following irelands laws though. Hence the trial.

The state can not give one company a better deal on their taxes. It's not a negotiable situation. You can't call up your govt and get a 99% off deal because you're big can you?

Obviously you haven't read up on the whole story or understand the sovereign laws of Ireland but it's nowhere near what you're thinking. Governments world wide go into partnership and do deals and give tax breaks to companies across the globe all the time. The car industry is one, farmers another, and the list goes on The European Commission isn't a government and isn't elected by anyone but yet think they can rule over the laws of sovereign countries, which it cannot. Ireland makes its laws and has every right to, and to fight for them as well. There is nothing illegal about the deal Ireland has given Apple. It saw an opportunity to raise its revenue through this deal. Now if you can show me the actual law act that is being broken here I think you need to go back and read up on the complete story.

 

[miknos]

Tell me. If I was a millionaire living in your neighbourhood and I employed 20 servants, a gardener, accountants, childminder, etc. etc.
It could probably be said that I I bring in more jobs and money than you you do. Should I be able to avoid paying most of my taxes because of that?

Very likely since you're creating wealth. In the end, all those dozen of employees are going to pay taxes anyways (and more important, contributing to the economy).

But there will always be those leeches and jealous people who will say you should pay your fair share (whatever that means). Politicians want to steal your money and losers (not successful people) "know better" what you should do with YOUR money.

 

[ackmondual]

Not only that. These kinds of deals go on everywhere in the world.
How come we do not hear much about the other companies there, and it is made out as if only Apple does this?

They're there. Google, Facebook, and Microsoft are amongst some of the other US corporations that have taken heat for their tax dealings.
As far as this story goes, this is MR... a site that deals more on the Apple side of things. And AFAIK, Apple is making the most money vs. those other companies, and probably performing the best out of all of them too.

The best they can hope for is that Ireland would be willing to gradually raise their tax rates and bring them in line with other countries, until "state aid rules" are eliminated.

At that point Apple and others will vanish to the next tax haven.

The specialists in large corporations are 10 times ahead of governments and any new law will be sidestepped
immediately, unless court rulings "fix" any possible "interpretation".

We are watching a cat and mouse game.

Well, that's because bad stuff will always happens, doesn't mean we should just give up completely. That's how entities and people get away with those activities.

 

[H2SO4]

Very likely since you're creating wealth. In the end, all those dozen of employees are going to pay taxes anyways (and more important, contributing to the economy).

But there will always be those leeches and jealous people who will say you should pay your fair share (whatever that means). Politicians want to steal your money and losers (not successful people) "know better" what you should do with YOUR money.

There are just as many lecherous individuals and corporations as there are politicians, don't kid yourself. It’s funny how when someone legally decides not to get a job because it’s more lucrative and easier to live off the state we vilify them.We don't say Oh, good on you, I’m happy to pay for your 4 bedroom house, widescreen TV and iPHONE!!

 

[macfacts]

It's less about greed than being responsible with shareholders' investments. Apple is doing nothing illegal; they're abiding by Ireland's laws. Apple didn't make the laws, and they're not the only company taking advantage of it.

All the other companies are paying 12% in Ireland. Apple was paying 1%.

 

[sportsfan]

At the end of the day it comes down to this. Gov't bills need to get paid. If those with the means don't pay "their fair share".... and we normally figure that out based on some progressive scale.... then the "burden" falls down to other tax brackets..... The very bottom don't have the means.... so those of us in the middle end up paying because we can't take advantage of loopholes or off shore accounts.

If I were a multi-millionaire, I'd gladly pay 40% before (reasonable) deductions to have a smoothly running country, with well funded public services.

Because at the end of the day, if I'm pulling in that kind of scratch I would greatly benefit from a population with money to spend.

Even after all that, my quality of life is much better than those in lower tax brackets paying less in taxes.

 

[swajames]

Obviously you haven't read up on the whole story or understand the sovereign laws of Ireland but it's nowhere near what you're thinking. Governments world wide go into partnership and do deals and give tax breaks to companies across the globe all the time. The car industry is one, farmers another, and the list goes on The European Commission isn't a government and isn't elected by anyone but yet think they can rule over the laws of sovereign countries, which it cannot. Ireland makes its laws and has every right to, and to fight for them as well. There is nothing illegal about the deal Ireland has given Apple. It saw an opportunity to raise its revenue through this deal. Now if you can show me the actual law act that is being broken here I think you need to go back and read up on the complete story.

With respect, the misunderstanding here is entirely yours - for reasons which are well articulated earlier in the thread.

 

[asiga]

If Apple kept the customer-friendly attitude from the 90s, I'd probably be on Apple's side. But with their current customer-unfriendly policies, I congratulate the Ireland govt and I hope they push harder.

I haven't changed. I'm still with the "cool dude" from the Mac vs PC ads series. It's Apple who is now the guy wearing the cheap suit with the cheap tie. I won't.

 

[alphaod]

Ireland not wanting to collect should make everyone question their integrity.

My opinion is Ireland is in too deep with several tax avoiders/evaders and are trying to save face.
[doublepost=1478625844][/doublepost]
Since they just reduced the price they'll have to pay in even more dongles!

Or maybe Ireland doesn't want the EU to dictate their own tax policies?

 

[apolloa]

Or maybe Ireland doesn't want the EU to dictate their own tax policies?

Or maybe when you accept billions in aide from the rest of Europe's tax payers, you are expected to abide by the laws you sign up to in order to have that aide...

The mis understanding and BS about this topic you read on this site is hilarious.

 

[Ries]

Your example needs to have an added situation.

Say you are looking to rent a house and a landlord comes along asking you to rent from him, if you are bringing jobs to the neighborhood, which makes everything around it prosper. House values go up, you may even employ more people, etc.
You rent the house that you employ all these people in, because the landlord instead of the going rate of $ 1,500 a month offers it for $ 750. The landlord then gets taxed on the $ 750 of rental income.

You move in for $ 750. You pay the employees and the payroll taxes.

Years later the city tells the landlord: Hey, by renting for only $ 750, which is way under what the houses rent for in this neighborhood you are avoiding paying taxes on $ 1,500.

Pay up for the difference. Then the country joins and says the city did not have the right to offer the house under market value.

You rented the place knowing $ 750 was a good deal and had an agreement with the landlord.

So, why would I have to deal with the city now, when I legally rented the place, bringing jobs and did nothing wrong, but taking advantage of the landlords offer?

They didn't make all that money in Ireland, they made it in the EU. They got to tax in Ireland due to laws for trading in the EU (single market). Both Apple and Ireland broke these laws and not knowing a law doesn't make you exempt from it.
[doublepost=1478640239][/doublepost]

Or maybe Ireland doesn't want the EU to dictate their own tax policies?

They are free to leave the EU if they don't like rules and make what-ever tax rules they like.

 

[redkamel]

Tell me. If I was a millionaire living in your neighbourhood and I employed 20 servants, a gardener, accountants, childminder, etc. etc.
It could probably be said that I I bring in more jobs and money than you you do. Should I be able to avoid paying most of my taxes because of that?

Well, most millionaires dont really have "home employees", but sure I will bite.

Nope, should not able to avoid paying taxes.
[doublepost=1478641575][/doublepost]

Yes the government has to maintain some stuff, they also waste a ******** of money and spend on money on stuff they shouldn't. Anyway, I know I am talking to a left wing group and there won't be any persuading here. Just stated my opinion.

to be fair, its mostly the private contractors wasting a ton of the governments money with the governments acquiescence...

 

[dampfnudel]

Well, it is in Ireland's best interest to keep the corporate money haven deal in place with Apple and others. No surprise, since Ireland has every incentive to keep generating jobs and money to prevent more young people from looking for greener pastures.

 

[Mcmeowmers]

Obviously you haven't read up on the whole story or understand the sovereign laws of Ireland but it's nowhere near what you're thinking. Governments world wide go into partnership and do deals and give tax breaks to companies across the globe all the time. The car industry is one, farmers another, and the list goes on The European Commission isn't a government and isn't elected by anyone but yet think they can rule over the laws of sovereign countries, which it cannot. Ireland makes its laws and has every right to, and to fight for them as well. There is nothing illegal about the deal Ireland has given Apple. It saw an opportunity to raise its revenue through this deal. Now if you can show me the actual law act that is being broken here I think you need to go back and read up on the complete story.

Does it not say in the summary the corporate tax rate as the Irish law is written is 12%? The fact that Apple pays 1~% is suspicious, no?

 

[Apple Corps]

Almost. The landlord is bound whether he likes it by the laws of the land and that applies whether or not they change. Same as happens to all regular people. Sometimes stuff happens. This is one of those times.
You may have an agreement that you have a smoking bar in a gambling club or a men only gym. If the law of the land changes and you have an agreement with your clients its quite possible that your agreement is nullified.

But this is retroactively changing the agreement / taxing - not a change to the future tax arrangements !!

 

[furi0usbee]

LOL So Ireland *doesn't want* $14BIL???? Yes, there is something fishy in deed going on in Ireland...

 

[H2SO4]

Or maybe Ireland doesn't want the EU to dictate their own tax policies?

Then Ireland should have left the EU and chose not to benefit from the state aid.
[doublepost=1478674706][/doublepost]

Well, most millionaires dont really have "home employees", but sure I will bite.

Nope, should not able to avoid paying taxes.
[doublepost=1478641575][/doublepost]

to be fair, its mostly the private contractors wasting a ton of the governments money with the governments acquiescence...

Thankyou for being straight.
[doublepost=1478674844][/doublepost]

But this is retroactively changing the agreement / taxing - not a change to the future tax arrangements !!

that doesn’t matter at all. there are plenty of things even everyday people do that suddenly have to change because of a change in the law. If not, people would sign longer contracts to avoid tax rises etc.
Ignorance is no defence of the law. Especially when you have an army of lawyers that should have seen this coming.

 

[niun]

Your example needs to have an added situation.

Say you are looking to rent a house and a landlord comes along asking you to rent from him, if you are bringing jobs to the neighborhood, which makes everything around it prosper. House values go up, you may even employ more people, etc.
You rent the house that you employ all these people in, because the landlord instead of the going rate of $ 1,500 a month offers it for $ 750. The landlord then gets taxed on the $ 750 of rental income.

You move in for $ 750. You pay the employees and the payroll taxes.

Years later the city tells the landlord: Hey, by renting for only $ 750, which is way under what the houses rent for in this neighborhood you are avoiding paying taxes on $ 1,500.

Pay up for the difference. Then the country joins and says the city did not have the right to offer the house under market value.

You rented the place knowing $ 750 was a good deal and had an agreement with the landlord.

So, why would I have to deal with the city now, when I legally rented the place, bringing jobs and did nothing wrong, but taking advantage of the landlords offer?

Ok, let us correct this slightly.

You and the landlord do a further backroom deal and only paid $75 in rent, knowing full well that such a deal went against all renting laws in the land.

Lets also say that the landlord receives a whole bunch of cash from the city and is expected to pay his fair share of this back based on income ($1500) from his rented properties.

What should the city then do?

 

[Teon]

President Trump will fix this?

ahah, I think he's drunk now (happiness)
and after several weeks of celebration - of course

 

[Sefstah]

Trump will make them pay

 

[Tech198]

Trump will make them pay

That's my first through, when he said he will "build a wall"

Although not illegal (tax in other countries that is, not the wall, but u could argue that one as well), i kinda get all giddy every time i see a large sack with a dollar sign affix.

 

[Apple Corps]

Then Ireland should have left the EU and chose not to benefit from the state aid.
[doublepost=1478674706][/doublepost]
Thankyou for being straight.
[doublepost=1478674844][/doublepost]
that doesn’t matter at all. there are plenty of things even everyday people do that suddenly have to change because of a change in the law. If not, people would sign longer contracts to avoid tax rises etc.
Ignorance is no defence of the law. Especially when you have an army of lawyers that should have seen this coming.

It matters plenty - an agreement was struck with Ireland - Apple met the obligation as we know it - if the EU goes after Ireland why should Apple have any liability?
[doublepost=1478711288][/doublepost]

It matters plenty - an agreement was struck with Ireland - Apple met the obligation as we know it - if the EU goes after Ireland why should Apple have any liability? Especially a retroactive one.