Is Apple doomed?

[Bungaree.Chubbins]

Well, that is the point actually. Collecting and running retro macs is a hobby of mine. I have and use Apple silicon but also daily early Intel and their predecessor PowerPC Macs. It is eye opening to see what an Intel Mac from 2008 can still bring in fluid, snappy daily driver functionality when compared to my current M3 mbp. There is a lot there still functionally speaking so for people who can and are willing, Linux (Big or my fav distro MX, etc) are fantastic paths forward to get additional secure, supported & usable life out of their Macs.

It is a fun challenge/hobby. It illustrates the true usefulness of our devices vs what planned obsolescence would dictate to us.

2008 Intel Mac, really? I have a 2008 iMac that I keep around for the once every few years I need access to old software that won’t run on newer hardware. It does make me miss the format and tempt me towards the rumoured M5 Max iMac (as if I could ever afford that), but every time I fire it up it’s a game of patience as I have to wait for everything. It’s such a slow, sluggish experience!

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

2008 Intel Mac, really? I have a 2008 iMac that I keep around for the once every few years I need access to old software that won’t run on newer hardware. It does make me miss the format and tempt me towards the rumoured M5 Max iMac (as if I could ever afford that), but every time I fire it up it’s a game of patience as I have to wait for everything. It’s such a slow, sluggish experience!

Expectations what they are, any Apple silicon Mac is going to crush an old Intel Mac in snappiness, even running a supported Linux distro like MX23 or 25. If that is the lens that ones expectation passes through, running linux on old anything is not going to be acceptable. In that case, buy the newest Mac that can be responsibly afforded and enjoy it as countless folks do

I took a minute to capture some times of apple silicon, Intel and PowerPC hardware times for boot up and browser to MR that I currently have up on my network.

Boot up:
2023 16" MBP Sequoia - 27.04 seconds
2008 MBP MX23 - 41.64 seconds
2005 PowerMac G5 Leopard/Sorbet - 70.42 seconds

Browser to MR
2023 16" MBP Sequoia - Safari 18.6 - 8.95 seconds
2008 MBP MX23 - FireFox 146.0.1 - 13.06 seconds
2005 PowerMac G5 Leopard/Sorbet - Aqua Fox 3 - 10.00 seconds

So as what is pretty obvious I think to most people, apple silicon beat out the others, however current supported linux and even unsupported obsoleted old macOS on 20 year old PowerPC hardware is not this horrible unusable experience for the common daily driver tasks like YT, browsing, AI, email, discord etc. Are we going to process 8k raw video on an old Intel Mac ? Obviously not, but the usual stuff most of us do, absolutely we can and do it comfortably. Anyways, I highly recommend anyone who is curious about linux to give a distro like MX or Big a shot as their installation really is as painless as it gets on older Intel hardware and. It's pretty awesome.

 

[Bungaree.Chubbins]

Expectations what they are, any Apple silicon Mac is going to crush an old Intel Mac in snappiness, even running a supported Linux distro like MX23 or 25. If that is the lens that ones expectation passes through, running linux on old anything is not going to be acceptable. In that case, buy the newest Mac that can be responsibly afforded and enjoy it as countless folks do

I took a minute to capture some times of apple silicon, Intel and PowerPC hardware times for boot up and browser to MR that I currently have up on my network.

Boot up:
2023 16" MBP Sequoia - 27.04 seconds
2008 MBP MX23 - 41.64 seconds
2005 PowerMac G5 Leopard/Sorbet - 70.42 seconds

Browser to MR
2023 16" MBP Sequoia - Safari 18.6 - 8.95 seconds
2008 MBP MX23 - FireFox 146.0.1 - 13.06 seconds
2005 PowerMac G5 Leopard/Sorbet - Aqua Fox 3 - 10.00 seconds

So as what is pretty obvious I think to most people, apple silicon beat out the others, however current supported linux and even unsupported obsoleted old macOS on 20 year old PowerPC hardware is not this horrible unusable experience for the common daily driver tasks like YT, browsing, AI, email, discord etc. Are we going to process 8k raw video on an old Intel Mac ? Obviously not, but the usual stuff most of us do, absolutely we can and do it comfortably. Anyways, I highly recommend anyone who is curious about linux to give a distro like MX or Big a shot as their installation really is as painless as it gets on older Intel hardware and. It's pretty awesome.

Yeah, switching from an M3 Pro to a Core 2 Duo is a pretty stark contrast for me.

I’ve long since satisfied my curiosity with Linux. It was fun when I wanted to use my computers, as opposed to using my computers to do things. Now though I don’t have the energy to futz with things every time I need to do something, I just want it to work. Not to mention the fact that the software I need doesn’t run on it!

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

Yeah, switching from an M3 Pro to a Core 2 Duo is a pretty stark contrast for me.

I get that. I have learned patience with kids I suppose. Anytime I feel impatience coming on, I boot up my Blue & White Powermac g3/Tiger and surf MR with Aquafox. Man, that is pain I guess it’s cool that I technically can still do it, but fun? Even patient folks have their limits

I’ve long since satisfied my curiosity with Linux. It was fun when I wanted to use my computers, as opposed to using my computers to do things. Now though I don’t have the energy to futz with things every time I need to do something, I just want it to work.

I totally get that. Our time is finite; our most valuable asset and if one can afford to have their pc just work, why not?

MX23 was the first distro where it truly did actually work out of the box for me - zero futzing. Everything just worked which was amazing haha. Linux & everything just worked were mutually exclusive until then. There’s a learning curve sure, but none of the “why doesn’t this stupid thing #%^* work” BS that I dealt with other distros LOL just went away *poof* - sounds like many in this thread also experienced that fun

Not to mention the fact that the software I need doesn’t run on it!

That’s a big one I think. If one needs a specific app, it may simply not exist on Linux. All of my work computers have been and are 100% MS for that simple fact.

 

[JMalone]

Yeah, switching from an M3 Pro to a Core 2 Duo is a pretty stark contrast for me.

I’ve long since satisfied my curiosity with Linux. It was fun when I wanted to use my computers, as opposed to using my computers to do things. Now though I don’t have the energy to futz with things every time I need to do something, I just want it to work. Not to mention the fact that the software I need doesn’t run on it!

The issue with (desktop) Linux is despite all the progress to make it a great desktop OS there’s much less incentive for developers to port their apps to an OS where piracy is much easier and the typical Linux user openly brags online about piracy and not wanting to pay for apps.

The irony is the same kind of user attacks AI for “stealing from programmers and artists” but then they brag about how they torrent apps and movies. It’s like a platform for hypocritical virtue signallers.

When that attitude changes and Linux has much better app stores and protections for apps then we might see the users acting like grown ups. Then many of the popular productivity apps can come.

 

[Bungaree.Chubbins]

The issue with (desktop) Linux is despite all the progress to make it a great desktop OS there’s much less incentive for developers to port their apps to an OS where piracy is much easier and the typical Linux user openly brags online about piracy and not wanting to pay for apps.

The irony is the same kind of user attacks AI for “stealing from programmers and artists” but then they brag about how they torrent apps and movies. It’s like a platform for hypocritical virtue signallers.

When that attitude changes and Linux has much better app stores and protections for apps then we might see the users acting like grown ups. Then many of the popular productivity apps can come.

I think that if there ever were a Linux distro that were to see mainstream success, and have major software suites ported to it, that subsection on Linux fan wouldn't go near it! Too mainstream for them!

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

The issue with (desktop) Linux is despite all the progress to make it a great desktop OS there’s much less incentive for developers to port their apps to an OS where piracy is much easier and the typical Linux user openly brags online about piracy and not wanting to pay for apps.

The irony is the same kind of user attacks AI for “stealing from programmers and artists” but then they brag about how they torrent apps and movies. It’s like a platform for hypocritical virtue signallers.

When that attitude changes and Linux has much better app stores and protections for apps then we might see the users acting like grown ups. Then many of the popular productivity apps can come.

Wow. Linux folks try to build/do something nice and this is how they are portrayed? Don’t worry, Linux isn’t for you.

Easy to install and use Linux distros are for the young person just starting out who has a hand me down pc and needs to get online or the single parent or family trying to make ends meet who needs an ecosystem that they can afford and won’t strangle them with app subscription fees or the elderly person who is on a fixed income and is looking at having to buy a pc they can’t afford because they’re on the edge of lack of support. Linux is for them. I’m glad it’s around for folks who would appreciate the value it represents to thousands of people across the globe who are in this exact place right now.

 

[teh_hunterer]

Wow. Linux folks try to build/do something nice and this is how they are portrayed? Don’t worry, Linux isn’t for you.

Easy to install and use Linux distros are for the young person just starting out who has a hand me down pc and needs to get online or the single parent or family trying to make ends meet who needs an ecosystem that they can afford and won’t strangle them with app subscription fees or the elderly person who is on a fixed income and is looking at having to buy a pc they can’t afford because they’re on the edge of lack of support. Linux is for them. I’m glad it’s around for folks who would appreciate the value it represents to thousands of people across the globe who are in this exact place right now.

One more to add to the ignore list*

You can't honestly think there is a single mother or an elderly person on a fixed income who is going to go and learn Linux just to save a few bucks. Single parents don't have time for that - they need something that actually works and isn't a second job in and of itself. The people you described are all people who just need something that works.

Personal desktop Linux for the most part is for people who don't have enough real things to do on their computer. And people who want to look smart for knowing how to use it. I'm sorry, but knowing how to use an operating system that makes you waste your valuable time learning how to fix things that aren't even broken in the first place on other operating systems doesn't make you smart.

A bit too harsh, maybe? Nothing compared to the smug, antisocial Linux "community".

 

[kody137]

How could a company like Apple be doomed as opposed to OpenAI, Antrhopic, etc. One of these companies is profitable, the others are not...

 

[unchecked]

How could a company like Apple be doomed as opposed to OpenAI, Antrhopic, etc. One of these companies is profitable, the others are not...

There's going to be long term pain. Short term those non profittable companies are going to buy and hoard up resources. Power, water, chips, memory et al. Then there's going to be a battle of attrition, to see if Apple's (and other electronics producers) long term contracts hold up before those AI companies go bust and stop the hoarding.

Remember the AI companies will have to keep buying infrastructure as it gets updated, so it's a process that's going to keep going as long as they have the money to burn. And they are asking governments to give them money to burn so the end may not be in the near future.

Even if the AI companies go bust, we would have created a huge gap in the timeline for the next few years for the bubble to burst and then they're going to need to build back up momentum. It's like the pandemic lost years all over again.

 

[kody137]

There's going to be long term pain. Short term those non profittable companies are going to buy and hoard up resources. Power, water, chips, memory et al. Then there's going to be a battle of attrition, to see if Apple's (and other electronics producers) long term contracts hold up before those AI companies go bust and stop the hoarding.

Remember the AI companies will have to keep buying infrastructure as it gets updated, so it's a process that's going to keep going as long as they have the money to burn. And they are asking governments to give them money to burn so the end may not be in the near future.

Even if the AI companies go bust, we would have created a huge gap in the timeline for the next few years for the bubble to burst and then they're going to need to build back up momentum. It's like the pandemic lost years all over again.

Right, but who has the actual money here. Apple. They can out bid just about anybody on the planet for resources. An AI company running on venture capitol will never be able to out spend Apple, and when they do, it's because Apple is letting them. Apple just has different priorities in the AI space. If Apple wants something they will get it.

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

You can't honestly think there is a single mother or an elderly person on a fixed income who is going to go and learn Linux just to save a few bucks. Single parents don't have time for that - they need something that actually works and isn't a second job in and of itself. The people you described are all people who just need something that works.

Personal desktop Linux for the most part is for people who don't have enough real things to do on their computer. And people who want to look smart for knowing how to use it. I'm sorry, but knowing how to use an operating system that makes you waste your valuable time learning how to fix things that aren't even broken in the first place on other operating systems doesn't make you smart.

A bit too harsh, maybe? Nothing compared to the smug, antisocial Linux "community".

With MX you don’t have to learn it really to use it. It has evolved to be truly as easy as any other mainstream OS imo. My parents (dad is 81 & mom is 75) run Linux on their aging Macs - both Intel Macs that are now technically unsupported machines but more than fine for their uses with MX. I also rescue old Intel Macs & wintops and replace them with MX and donate them to those in need through a local Catholic charity in my town (targeted mostly at struggling young women & families who need help but also elderly folks from Time to time). Both of these demographics seem to have zero issue with using MX. The old Intel Macs and laptops always go & are welcomed gifts of support and care.

So, my specific use case absolutely has led me to know & understand that these demographics of folks absolutely can and will use a polished Linux distro given the chance to do so. If easy to use distros like MX weren’t around, they’d not be served in this way & at a distinct socio-economic disadvantage to the rest of us.

Linux did that.

Do I think they’d have sourced a Linux distro on their own? Maybe? I can’t say but I’d not count them out just because they’re a struggling single parent or family. Quite the opposite imo. Struggle builds folks with a tenacity that absolutely would drive someone to explore Linux distros if that was their only option with what the had. I think elderly folks need a bit more hand holding but again, they’re not dumb people just because they’re old. Show them how to fish and they’re usually absolutely ok with daily driver tasks on a distro like MX or Big or Ubuntu etc. & they might just reciprocate & teach you something along that journey together. There’s a lifetime of experience in that brain.

Again, the Linux community makes that possible. They’re good people serving a needed technology niche.

 

[MBAir2010]

You can't honestly think there is a single mother or an elderly person on a fixed income who is going to go and learn Linux just to save a few bucks.

aveage elderly person: "Linux, was he the one with the blanket on charlie brown penuts?

 

[DCBassman]

You can't honestly think there is a single mother or an elderly person on a fixed income who is going to go and learn Linux just to save a few bucks

If you're starting from scratch, Linux is no harder than any other OS. Mint, MX, Manjaro, Pop!_OS - all as easy as anything else. And for basic use, ALL the software you need is ready to go once you've installed it.
Learn what, exactly? And saving a few bucks can be important when a few bucks is all you've got...

 

[chmania]

The issue with (desktop) Linux is despite all the progress to make it a great desktop OS ...

Linux is not an operating system but a kernel. Operating systems are built by others on top of that kernel. Even Apple had one called MKLinux, which ran Linux as a server on the Mach microkernel for research and education. Its website is still active, long after it went underground (discontinued).

 

[MacCheetah3]

So you haven’t even understood my main point. I don’t want them to pivot towards AI. Because of AI and cloud computing instances, Apple faces a real threat to their hardware business. Once people are used to running things on cloud and ordering compute power online, Apple’s hardware specs will have no relevance. Who would want to spend $1500 on hardware when they can rent compute as per their requirements? Once that happens to regular computers, our mobile phones will follow the same suit. This is where Apple might have to pivot towards thin client manufacturing and that’s where the cookie crumbles. Less money from hardware business. Apple would be forced to adapt or become irrelevant.

I sincerely hope I am wrong about this. ☹️

I also get it that initially, cloud instances will be dirt cheap subscriptions. When Big-Tech companies have taken out every single hardware manufacturer out of the market, then it will be a proper money squeeze where it would be more costlier than owning the powerful hardware itself. Just like how monopolies/duopolies work. But that is for after 5-10 years.

I’m not doubting there will be a permanent impact, longstanding effects in some form to personal computing (or sort of lack thereof) whether the “AI” bubble bursts or deflates.

But is the sky falling? Are we really headed for the Matrix or Terminator land?

How about Micron?

Morons chasing money. Selfish liars trying to save face. Etc.

Microsoft has AI GPUs “sitting in inventory” because it lacks the power necessary to install them

Speaking on the Bg2 Pod, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella said power, not compute, is biggest data center constraint

www.datacenterdynamics.com

A historical example:

Speaking of arrogant, excessively wealthy twits:

Value of X has fallen 71% since purchase by Musk and name change from Twitter

Mutual fund Fidelity, which owns stake in social media platform, marks down value of its shares in disclosure obtained by Axios

www.theguardian.com

To round it out, I’ll include a Hollywood depiction:

And the more excess money these morons have, the more they’re willing to toss it around and hope someone hands it back to them with extra.

NVIDIA cutting consumer production?

In this case, the influencer is seemingly correct. That is, Nvidia did the same for GeForce 40 series — which Nvidia also pulled back plenty early after their oops (i.e., eventually allowed the surplus and lost potential profits) during the 30 series window.

We never saw MSRP go down with GPUs after the crypto craze in 2020/2021. MSRP here NOT scalpers. You honestly think the RTX 5090 will go back down to $2,000 after the jump to $5,000 (rumored price)?

This, the non-1% getting pulverized, has been the path of the economy for decades, at least in the U.S.

https://www.reddit.com/r/EconomyCharts/comments/1q0cah6/usa_average_salary_compared_to_housing_prices

Infographic: House Prices Outpaced Income Growth Over the Past 40 Years

This chart compares the median household income in the United States to the median price of new houses sold in the country.

www.statista.com

Cars price inflation, 1935→2025

This calculator uses the official Consumer Price Index for Cars from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Cars costing $15,000 in 1935 would cost $128,172.60 in 2025.

www.in2013dollars.com

50 years of US wages, in one chart

Average weekly earnings are $23.24 today, the same as in 1973 when adjusted for inflation.

www.weforum.org

I once came across a site with selectable charts though I didn’t bookmark it and can’t locate it again.

Anyway...

Regarding the rumors as well as predictions of an immediate dystopian hellscape… I respect a lot of the analysis from Steve (i.e., GamersNexus) but he also has at least some bias and gets caught up in drama — as one source example.

In fact, for (only) a brief period, Steve reminded fans/viewers that Nvidia’s advertised price was the base MSRP, which was in response to the common mistaken reference of the abbreviation MSRP. For example, saying/asking “Is the Astral 5090’s $1,360 price above MSRP worth it?” is at best careless. Why? Because the ROG Astral GeForce RTX 5090’s manufacturer’s price is $3,359.99. The Astral’s price is not $2,000 and never was.

If you want a very simplistic takeaway: take the tongue of any greedy/seflsih person, whether small-time or trillionaire, with a grain of salt.

 

[Jumpthesnark]

We will be relegated to old tech till it stops working or switch to shiny new thin clients with cloud computing subscriptions.

How do you know this?

It seems to be at the core of the entire premise of this thread.

You say this will happen. Not that it might. How do you know this to be a fact?

 

[kody137]

Oh, and this will impact phones and tablets too. Not just Macs. No new iPhone 18 this year rumor just shows how ridiculous this CURRENTLY is and will get much much MUCH worse.

Them not releasing the base 18 hasn't been rumored to have anything to do with market conditions. They're introducing a new model this year and want to give it some attention. It makes a ton of sense imo to release the base model with the 'e' varient in the spring.

 

[kody137]

I'm convinced this is a rage bait post lol, well done OP 👏

 

[kody137]

How do you know this?

It seems to be at the core of the entire premise of this thread.

You say this will happen. Not that it might. How do you know this to be a fact?

"Trust me bro"

 

[teh_hunterer]

Do I think they’d have sourced a Linux distro on their own? Maybe?

No, they're using Linux because you are a Linux evangelist who did everything you could to get them to.

Family you can browbeat into it, people who don't have an economic choice will have to take what they're given. But that doesn't mean normal people are enthusiastically taking it upon themselves to dive into Linux.

 

[AL2TEACH]

Only if China somehow manages to steal TSMC tech

No need to steal, China will make a move for Taiwan and once again the chorus of the world will be "oh no, it's not right" song.

 

[teh_hunterer]

If you're starting from scratch, Linux is no harder than any other OS. Mint, MX, Manjaro, Pop!_OS - all as easy as anything else. And for basic use, ALL the software you need is ready to go once you've installed it.
Learn what, exactly? And saving a few bucks can be important when a few bucks is all you've got...

Who exactly is starting from scratch with Linux?

And if you're not starting from scratch, then you're having to learn a different operating system from the one you used previously and will be using again once you are doing something out in the real world.

Most desktop Linux users are using it either because they are passionate about open source software, or someone who is passionate about open source software is trying to get them to use it. That's fine, but let's not pretend a bunch of normal people are naturally using it.

 

[teh_hunterer]

No need to steal, China will make a move for Taiwan and once again the chorus of the world will be "oh no, it's not right" song.

Right, because that's invading and stealing.

 

[Certificate of Excellence]

No, they're using Linux because you are a Linux evangelist who did everything you could to get them to.

Family you can browbeat into it, people who don't have an economic choice will have to take what they're given. But that doesn't mean normal people are enthusiastically taking it upon themselves to dive into Linux.

I am SO not a Linux evanegelist. That is funny You dont know me and likely never will so very easy to paint with that broad brush and thats ok. It is amusing . Macos and its ecosystem are my preference. My iphone 17 pro max is awesome as is my M2 16" mbp. They crush it and I happily pay for that and the intertwined services ecosystem because I can afford to. I am however a realist. There are more people in the world than not who can't afford this ecosystem or this hardware. They're in a hard spot - thats life and most of us have been in a similar spot ourselves at some point. Im giving credit to a fantastic and polished Linux distro where credit is due to the folks who built it & maintain it. They did/do a great job and all without a profit motive behind them.

You are right. The folks who approach the charity DO get what they are given because they cannot afford Windows or Macos or a Chrome book for that matter. They do get what they are given because that is the tool that was provided to the person giving - an old Intel something er other & a free, polished linux distro and entrance into an ecosystem that is also free.

I'm ok with that obviously. As much as I love Apple products and macos I fully acknowledge that is beyond alot of peoles economic reach and I am more than happy to help them get established to where they can and likely will at some point enter the windows/chromeos/macos ecosystem of their choice; their preference. Heck they might stay with Linux, who knows. I didnt. I'm into macos and have been for decades at this point but linux absolutely is a tool in the tool box. I'm glad it's there.

The Linux community provides this.