Is Apple ripping us off with the Macbook Pro?

[Jason Beck]

This kind of thread, again? Really?

Gee, let me try to rehash something, relevant, except wording it
differently. "PalmFace."
There.

 

[allforpiratebay]

I think they're expensive for what they are,so yes I agree with the topic starter. However I will still buy them as it is something I will pay more for... and I think that's how apple think also.
Most of the parts in their computers and standard ones that others would use; screens (low bit panels), ram, hard drive, graphics etc. So that can't really explain why the prices are so high, R&D?! - we're all paying extra so they can develop iPhones and ipads and neglect their computers, just wonderful(!)

 

[aristobrat]

Most of the parts in their computers and standard ones that others would use; screens (low bit panels), ram, hard drive, graphics etc. So that can't really explain why the prices are so high, R&D?!

Right, they have the same basic parts (screen, RAM, CPU, hdd) inside, but when you start to look at everything else about the system, that's where you start to see some obvious differences between Apple notebooks vs. the competition.

Again, those difference may add no value to you personally, but for others that take advantage of them, there is a value associated with them.

 

[kny3twalker]

Did they make any effort with the design to get it into a 1" thick case, or is it the usual laptop thickness that comes from just slapping off-the-shelf stuff together in a re-used laptop design?
Aluminum unibody casing?
Backlit keyboard?
Decent LED screen?
7-hour battery?
Large, multi-touch trackpad?
Mag-safe power w/ a power-brick that can be downsized if needed?
Ability to attend free in-store workshops for getting the most out of the system?
Ability to get free in-store tech support for the life of the system?
Option for virtually unlimited in-store personal training for $99/year?
OS X + iLife?

For some, nothing on the list above adds any value, which is fine.

For those that do find value in some of the things above, it decreases the difference in price between a Mac notebooks and the commodity notebooks that shuffle in and out of Best Buys on a regular basis.

These really do not benefit many people:

Ability to attend free in-store workshops for getting the most out of the system?
Option for virtually unlimited in-store personal training for $99/year?

The aluminum casing and other hardware aspects though are definitely huge advantages. The cost of the aluminum and machining I think could easily add $50 or more to the cost of manufacturing. And by comparing the MB to the MBP, we can see the aluminum unibody adds close to $200 in cost to the consumer.
Suddenly if we want a rigid well constructed body on our laptops and start including other features, the price difference slowly begins to decrease at least so this $500 computer is not a good comparable product to the MBPs.

Here is a Lenovo T510 with the IPS display

ThinkPad T510 - 1 Year Depot Topseller Warranty

Processor Intel Core i5-520M Processor (2.40GHz, 3MB L3, 1066MHz FSB)
Operating system Genuine Windows 7 Professional 64
Operating system language Genuine Windows 7 Professional 64 US English
Display type 15.6" FHD Display (95% Gamut, 270nit) with LED Backlight
System graphics NVIDIA NVS 3100m Graphics 512MB DDR3 with Intel Advanced Management Technology
Total memory 4 GB PC3-8500 DDR3 SDRAM 1067MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM)
Keyboard Keyboard US English
Camera Camera, 2.0 MP
Hard Drive 500 GB Hard Disk Drive, 7200rpm
Optical device Multi Recorder Optical Drive (12.7mm)
System expansion slots Express Card Slot & 5 in 1 Card Reader
Battery 9 cell Li-Ion Battery
Power cord Country Pack North America with Line cord & 90W AC adapter
Bluetooth Bluetooth w/ antenna
Integrated WiFi wireless LAN adapters Intel Centrino Advanced-N 6200
Wireless WWAN accessories Integrated Mobile Broadband - Upgradable
Language Pack Language Pack US English
Subtotal: $1,984.00
Sale Price: $1,714.00

I made a couple upgrades including adding the 500 GB drive, 4 GB DDR3, bluetooth, and upgraded wireless card. And while I realize this was on lenovo.com and not their cpp or spp stores nor did I include any coupons if there are any, but this should be much more comparable to the MBP15.

This should be comparable to the MBP13

ThinkPad T410 - 1 Year Depot Warranty

Processor1 Intel Core i5-520M Processor (2.40GHz, 3MB L3, 1066MHz FSB)
Operating system12 Genuine Windows 7 Professional 64
Operating system language Genuine Windows 7 Professional 64 US English
Display type 14.1 WXGA+ TFT, w/ LED Backlight (WWAN antenna)
System graphics NVIDIA NVS 3100m Graphics 256MB DDR3 with AMT
Modem 56K v.92 Designed Modem
Total memory8 2 GB PC3-8500 DDR3 SDRAM 1067MHz SODIMM Memory (1 DIMM)
Keyboards Keyboard US English
Pointing device UltraNav (TrackPoint and TouchPad) with Fingerprint Reader
Camera Camera, 2.0 MP
Hard drive4 320 GB Hard Disk Drive, 7200rpm
Optical device5 DVD Recordable 8x Max Dual Layer, Ultrabay Slim (Serial ATA)
Battery60 9 cell Li-Ion Battery
Power cord Country Pack North America with Line cord & 90W AC adapter
Bluetooth Bluetooth w/ antenna
Integrated WiFi wireless LAN adapters10 Intel Centrino Advanced-N 6200
Wireless WAN accessories65 Integrated Mobile Broadband (Gobi 2000 3G with GPS)
Selectable SIM Open SIM Card for Verizon: USA
Language pack Language Pack US English
Subtotal: $1,815.00
Sale Price: $1,369.00
Estimated total: $1,369.00*

 

[aristobrat]

These are really do not benefit people:

Ability to attend free in-store workshops for getting the most out of the system?
Ability to get free in-store tech support for the life of the system?
Option for virtually unlimited in-store personal training for $99/year?

What? There are tons of people that find benefit in those Apple Store services, the prices of which are included in every Mac.

Again, not every person, but some people do find value there.

 

[kny3twalker]

What? There are tons of people that find benefit in those Apple Store services, the prices of which are included in every Mac.

Again, not every person, but some people do find value there.

I edited my typos and did not mean to include tech support. But I still feel like those services are most probably very underutilized. (I doubt tons of people are hanging out at the apple store to learn how to use finder or safari or whatever...., but from reading on this site, I should know that Apple has plenty of customers with more money and more time.)

 

[shambo]

Bad boys aren't cheap, get over it.

 

[aristobrat]

I edited my typos. But I still feel like those services are most probably very underutilized.

I agree, definitely not everyone (or probably even a majority) find value in those services. Many people have no Apple Store nearby.

But for people in the market for a new laptop, especially those that aren't very computer savvy, MB/MBPs having those services available - again, if needed - can be a value that sways a decision away from a cheaper Wintel notebook over towards a MB or MBP.

 

[kny3twalker]

Bad boys aren't cheap, get over it.

WTF does this have to do with motorcycles.

And Bad Boys at around $15k were pretty cheap for a Harley Davidson.

 

[bloody]

Lol MBP is totally over priced. I still want one though.

 

[wikoogle]

Yeah, they're great laptops, I'm not saying they aren't. And anyone that has disposable income couldn't go wrong in getting one. I'm just saying they're not a great value for the price and at the very least, Apple needs to hurry up and include basics like an i5 processor, a better graphics card, hdmi and bluray into their MBPs if they still want to keep catering to the high end market.

 

[GGJstudios]

... I'm just saying they're not a great value for the price.

That's just one subjective opinion. Many MBP owners consider them great values.

 

[iDisk]

well, currently, to answer the question in the title, yes. but in the future, with an update, no. for $1200 (base 13") you essentially get a great laptop, great software, and since it will likely break/have something go wrong, maybe a new logic board, etc, say $1000 in free repairs with labor over the one-year period. plus they pay people to diagnose anything, anytime regardless of warranty. thats worth it imo.

LOL Your Sig

This kind of thread, again? Really?

Gee, let me try to rehash something, relevant, except wording it
differently. "PalmFace."
There.

LOL Your post ..... I literally laughed .. keep em coming .. Any relation to John Beck ?

 

[wikoogle]

They are a great product, not a great value. There is a difference.

Buggati cars are indeed great products. And thus rich people buy them. But it would be wrong to claim that they're a great value or give you a great bang for your buck.

And that analogy doesn't even do Buggati justice. Because Buttati's in addition to being carefully hand crafted with high quality materials, are actually much faster and use more high end parts than Macbook Pros.

However, $3000 Macbook Pros still don't offer high end parts like the i5 processor, blu ray or hdmi that laptops that cost a sixth as much cost.

It would be like if Bugatti's started putting V4 engines in their cars and people still bought them for the build quality.

This all begs the question.

Why doesn't someone make a quality unibody laptop that looks gorgeous like the Macbook Pro and sell it for $1000 even.

I mean Toyota was smart enough to take the awesome build quality of their Lexus cars, and put the same care into cheaper cars like the Corrolla and Camry. And they want onto to completely dominate the US Sales market.

Other japanese companies followed suit, and suddenly many manufacterers started putting a lot more care into build quality even for low end cars.

So why doesn't someone do the the same thing for laptops, offer up luxury build quality for a reasonable price.

 

[Takashi]

Even assuming the Macbook Pro costs $500 to manufacture, it does seem like a huge markup to $2500.

Regardless, mainly I was hoping to hear from someone that actually has insider knowledge on how much it might be.

If my guess is correct, the cost to build a macbook pro (including all accessories that come with the box) equals to the price of apple-care. If my assumption is correct, it might even cost less than $ required for applecare because:

1) Labor is cheap in China -- Don't forget: how much we make a month = how much a typical Chinese worker make in a year. Furthermore, labor is cheap in China compared to USA. Some say that the Aluminium shell costs $ to make. You are so wrong. It will cost more to make the MBP shell in USA; however, it does not cost anything to make in China. If you border to look at the unibody promotional video, the manufacture process is all automated.

2) Apple is buying parts at bulk. A lot of the parts are made in China as well. Being said, the cost to make and assemble the parts will be dirt cheap.

3) Apple makes more profits by keeping the manufacture cost low and charge customers an arm and a leg to buy the computer.

At the end, it all goes down to profits and apple shareholders. Do you think apple can lower the $ for a 13" macbook? Of course they can. Would they do that? Of course they won't. They want to differentiate themselves with PC manufacturers (i.e. owners prestige). Apple will have no success in doing that if they drop the price down. Furthermore, Apple is very into applecare. If they drop the price of MBP, nobody will buy applecare which leads to less profits (Applecare = pure profit for Apple).

You don't need a pHD to know how to make money. With a little bit of logic, you can figure it out.

 

[iDisk]

Yeah, they're great laptops, I'm not saying they aren't. And anyone that has disposable income couldn't go wrong in getting one. I'm just saying they're not a great value for the price and at the very least, Apple needs to hurry up and include basics like an i5 processor, a better graphics card, hdmi and bluray into their MBPs if they still want to keep catering to the high end market.

Apple products have 100% margins in them, so if ANY items retail for a certain price it cost Apple half that to make.

I seriously am eager for the new notebook and Mac Pro lineup, Arrandale & Gulftown!! Come on WWDC X .. Come on 6 & 12 Cores!!!

Developers Rule!!!

 

[Winters]

Apple products have 100% margins in them, so if ANY items retail for a certain price it cost Apple half that to make.

I seriously am eager for the new notebook and Mac Pro lineup, Arrandale & Gulftown!! Come on WWDC X .. Come on 6 & 12 Cores!!!

Developers Rule!!!

That's probably the margin when they get released but the cost goes down after some time.

 

[GGJstudios]

They are a great product, not a great value.

Again, just your opinion.

Ferrari cars are indeed great products.

Actually, they're not particularly well built, compared to some other brands.

The fact is, people value different things. Any notebook running Windows is a lower value to me, because I prefer Mac OS X. Some place a high value on aluminum unibody notebooks with built-in batteries and Mac OS X. For them, the MBP may be the highest value available.

The bottom line is, YOU don't consider the MBP a great value, based on what YOU value. That's still only your opinion. Others consider it a great value, based on what they get for their money (specs, Apple's reputation, design, Mac OS X, AppleCare, no viruses, etc.).

You can't accurately say something is not a great value, just because YOU don't value it. Some buy Rolls-Royce motorcars because they place a high value on exclusivity, appearance, status, etc., and not just because of the horsepower or mileage compared to the money spent.

 

[neondrgns]

Well if you are looking for great looks for low price, but not really great specs, Dell Adamo is now $999, and personally I think the adamo looks better than macbook. Only problem is that its built with mobility in mind and its lacking power.

 

[iDisk]

That's probably the margin when they get released but the cost goes down after some time.

True, so the margins get larger for apple!

Say the 6 core Mac Pro cost $2,600 when released

Then it cost Apple $1,300 to build

1 year later it cost Apple $800 to build and they're still charging $2,600.

The cost goes down for Apple not for the users lol

DON'T FORGET APPLE CAN BUILD THE ALUMINUM HOUSING IN-HOUSE NOW, WHICH EQUATES TO LOWER PRICES FOR APPLE TO BUILD AND = LOWER PRICES FOR USERS TOO APPLE STILL IS GOING TO GET THEIR MARGINS THOUGH

 

[AppleNerd96]

Even though this is only my personal opinion...

I think with the current GPUs and outdated C2D CPUs... Yes, they are, and very much indeed.

 

[mrbobbo]

Supportability and Growth is the value

One thing I've found with macs over the years is this: six months after I buy one for purpose X I find I have purpose Y also. Photo editing, audio editing, video file translation, video editing, color management, synchronization with mobile devices. I usually find I've already bought the software or hardware I need. And if not, there's some small piece of software that is all it takes.

In contrast, Windows machines have been a complete pain. As soon as I had a new need that I didn't shop for, I'm stuck with a new hardware purchase. And with macs, you plug it in and it works.

I've programmed on, maintained, and used both the cheaper (Windows) machines and macs, and macs are way better. How much that translates to $$ depends on your standard: how valuable is your time to you and how much do you want to do that thing. If your time is cheap and your really don't care, then a mac isn't a good value. If you have better things to do and you want it to work right, then it's a great value. Personally, I'll be happy if I never see a .dll ever again.

 

[Kestrel87]

While I really don't know how much it costs to manufacture these things, we can still do some analysis.

Cost difference estimation done with the help of Newegg.

Processor
The Gateway has an i3 according to Gateway's website, so I'm not sure about where the i5 is coming up. Either way, it's probably worth about $50-$100 more than a Core 2 Duo. As has already been pointed out in this thread, once Apple updates the MBP line, this advantage will go away.

Graphics
Another discrepancy - Gateway says this laptop has no dedicated graphics, but you claim it has a 128MB dedicated graphics card. The MBP has a 256MB dedicated nVidia card. If your laptop does have a dedicated card, I'd still put that at $50 MBP advantage. If it doesn't, that's a whopping $300 or so in the MBP's favor.

Operating System
Let's just say, for kicks, that Windows 7 and Mac OS X are roughly equal in value.

Memory
4 GB 1066 MHz DDR3 on the Gateway, 4 GB 1066 MHz DDR3 on the MBP. A perfect tie!

Hard Drive
320 GB 5400 RPM on the Gateway, 500 GB 5400 RPM on the MBP, for about a $40 difference.

Display
15.6" LED 1366 x 768 on the Gateway, 15.4" LED 1440 x 900 on the MBP. Unfortunately, I really don't know how to tell the price difference for an extra 246,912 pixels, but I'd guess it's on the order of $50 or so.

AC Adapter
No Magsafe on the Gateway, Magsafe on the MBP. Maybe $30?

Chassis and Weight
Plastic (?) 5.84 lbs on the Gateway, Aluminum 5.5 lbs on the MBP. Sturdier design and 0.34 lbs lighter, let's put the price on that around $30.

Battery
??? on the Gateway, 7 hours on the MBP. I'm guessing about $100 difference here.

Ports
4 USB, HDMI and VGA on the Gateway, FW800, 2 USB, and DisplayPort on the MBP. Maybe $20 in Gateway's favor, if for nothing other than having more ports and the potential cost of a DisplayPort adapter.

Card Readers
Multicard Reader on the Gateway, SD card reader on the MBP. Maybe $20 in favor of Gateway.

Optical Drive
Blu-Ray/DVD on the Gateway, Superdrive in the MBP. $50 in favor of the Gateway for the Blu-Ray.

Other than that, I'm not seeing many significant differences. That's a total of $110-$410 in favor of the MBP, which is almost 8 months old (about a generation in terms of technology).

So why doesn't the Macbook Pro cost $600-$1000?

Well, another thing to take into consideration is Apple's environmental efforts. Mercury-free LED display, arsenic-free glass, ENERGY STAR, PVC-free internal cables, etc. Even if you don't care about the environment, there's a cost associated with environmental-friendliness.

Furthermore, as others have pointed out, there's Mac OS X versus Windows 7. I'm sure Apple thinks OS X is worth more than Windows 7 due to a plethora of factors (stability, ease of use, etc). And then there's iLife.

Of course, when Apple brings out the next generation of MBPs, that'll probably add $500 in updates/upgrades, and they'll be selling that for the same price as the current MBP.

So, yes, a MBP is expensive. They're probably making a good profit. A 30% profit margin puts the MBP around $1700, which, if you look at everything I've laid out, is about right.

 

[wikoogle]

This isn't really the point I was making, but regardless, to address your post...

The gateway doesn't have an i3, it indeed has an i5 processor. It was simply mislabeled. Read the thread I linked to in the OP if you don't believe me.

Regardless, your math seems off, and you seem to have overvalued apple's parts.

For example, you claim that the 2 year old GPU in the Macbook Pro costs $300 more than than the just released 128 mb dedicated ram GPU in the Gateway, which seems like quite a stretch. There's no way the 9600 costs more than $60 nowadays.

In addition, you post says that you can get a Macbook Pro with the dedicated graphics card, a 500 GB HDD etc for $1700 when in fact, a Macbook with those specifications costs $2300.

 

[MacFanUK]

This isn't really the point I was making, but regardless, to address your post...

The gateway doesn't have an i3, it indeed has an i5 processor. It was simply mislabeled. Read the thread I linked to in the OP if you don't believe me.

The thread you linked to in the OP even stated Core-I3 in 3 posts on the first page. Try reading it!


Regardless, your math seems off, and you seem to have overvalued apple's parts.

In addition, you post says that you can get a Macbook Pro with the dedicated graphics card, a 500 GB HDD etc for $1700 when in fact, a Macbook with those specifications costs $2300.

You can customise the Macbook Pro when ordering and get it with a dedicated gpu and 500GB hard drive for $2100, but yes, I do see your point that if all you're bothered with is amounts of gigabytes, and don't actually want OSX, then buy your crummy Gateway that will be worthless junk in 6 months time.