Is Apple ripping us off with the Macbook Pro?

[kny3twalker]

While I really don't know how much it costs to manufacture these things, we can still do some analysis.

Cost difference estimation done with the help of Newegg.


Graphics
Another discrepancy - Gateway says this laptop has no dedicated graphics, but you claim it has a 128MB dedicated graphics card. The MBP has a 256MB dedicated nVidia card. If your laptop does have a dedicated card, I'd still put that at $50 MBP advantage. If it doesn't, that's a whopping $300 or so in the MBP's favor.


Chassis and Weight
Plastic (?) 5.84 lbs on the Gateway, Aluminum 5.5 lbs on the MBP. Sturdier design and 0.34 lbs lighter, let's put the price on that around $30.


Optical Drive
Blu-Ray/DVD on the Gateway, Superdrive in the MBP. $50 in favor of the Gateway for the Blu-Ray.


So, yes, a MBP is expensive. They're probably making a good profit. A 30% profit margin puts the MBP around $1700, which, if you look at everything I've laid out, is about right.

First an all aluminum body versus plastic, is at least a $200 upgrade, probably more. The complete layout is far better, the trackpad is better, the keyboard is better, the build quality is better (machining is far more precise), and the body is more rigid.

Then a Blu Ray upgrade from a DVD burner is more likely $100.

Finally, the video card in the $1700 MBP is the 256MB 9400M, and the video card in the $2000 MBP is the 256 MB 9600GT/9400M.
But the 9600GT or the equivalent in the next generation MacBook Pro is not really a $300 upgrade even if thats what Apple charges for it. More than likely its somewhere between $100-$200.

Also you forgot the screen is much better in the MacBook Pro, thats probably a $100-$200 difference or more!

This isn't really the point I was making, but regardless, to address your post...

The gateway doesn't have an i3, it indeed has an i5 processor. It was simply mislabeled. Read the thread I linked to in the OP if you don't believe me.

Regardless, your math seems off, and you seem to have overvalued apple's parts.

For example, you claim that the 2 year old GPU in the Macbook Pro costs $300 more than than the just released 128 mb dedicated ram GPU in the Gateway, which seems like quite a stretch. There's no way the 9600 costs more than $60 nowadays.

In addition, you post says that you can get a Macbook Pro with the dedicated graphics card, a 500 GB HDD etc for $1700 when in fact, a Macbook with those specifications costs $2300.

Again, the video card in the $1700 MBP is the 256MB 9400M, and the video card in the $2000 MBP is the 256 MB 9600GT/9400M.

Then its really irrelevant what the 9600GT costs, the point is the next generation MacBook Pro that comes with a dedicated video card, the video card will be a $100-$200 upgrade on Windows machines, even if $300 on a MacBook Pro.
Where as Intel graphics come along with the processor and are the bare minimum for current GPUs.

 

[wikoogle]

MacFanUK, Lol at your rapid switch to defensive mode.

Apple uses the same exact components to build their laptops everyone else uses.

They get intel processors, ddr ram, hdd, everything from the same assembly line chinese factories that every other manufacterer does.

So no, the Gateway internals don't turn into crap any faster than the Macbook Pro's internals do. And if you love OSX so much, it's really not that hard to install OSX onto the Gateway.

P.S: If you actually read past the first three posts, you would see that everyone of those laptops comes with an i5 processor and Gateway simply mislabled them. There is a single model of that laptop with an i3 anywhere, the specs were a misprint.

Kny, once again, the specs weren't the main point of my post. But actually the 9400M doesn't have 256 mbs of ram, it borrows them from the laptop mobo's ddr3 ram, and thus the ram is significantly slower than dedicated ram built onto the chip itself. On the contrary, the Gateway has 128 mbs of dedicated ram built onto the chip itself, which makes a huge difference and on top of that can borrow another 256 mbs of ram from the laptop's ddr3 ram if it ever needs to. And no, even the 9600GT is not a $200 card anymore. I guarentee you that Apple pays Nvidea no more than $40 for it at most.

 

[MyDesktopBroke]

Every one knows Apple charges high profit margins. No one really cares, though. And if it bothers you enough that your breaking down parts to check the price, a Mac probably isn't right for you anyway.

Personally I would never buy a MBP at full price. I picked up one that originally cost $2499 (late 2008 15.4 inch, 9600 w/ 512vram, 4gb of ram) for $1449 as a refurb. That's still around 200 - 250 more expensive than a comparable computers I saw at that time, but it was worth every penny for me.

So no, the Gateway internals don't turn into crap any faster than the Macbook Pro's internals do. And if you love OSX so much, it's really not that hard to install OSX onto the Gateway.

Well, you could argue that the plastic case and inferior ventilation design reduces the lifespan of internal components significantly. I just read a great article about this, and Apple was 3rd out of a list of a bunch of makers for longest life. And it's illegal to install OS X on anything other than a mac.

 

[kny3twalker]

MacFanUK, Lol at your rapid switch to defensive mode.

Apple uses the same exact components to build their laptops everyone else uses.

They get intel processors, ddr ram, hdd, everything from the same assembly line chinese factories that every other manufacterer does.

First just because they have the same parts available does not mean they use the same parts. This should be obvious from the displays used in cheaper laptops. As far as motherboard, harddrive, ram, video card and processor, you are right, but ram, processors, and video cards are price according to performance and apple does not use the cheapest available, and furthermore, you continue to discount the unibody.

So no, the Gateway doesn't turn into crap any faster than the Macbook Pro does. And if you love OSX so much, it's really not that hard to install OSX onto it.

P.S: If you actually read past the first three posts, you would see that everyone of those laptops comes with an i5 processor and Gateway simply mislabled them. There is a single model of that laptop with an i3 anywhere, the specs were a misprint.

Kny, once again, the specs weren't the main point of my post. But actually the 9400M doesn't have 256 mbs of ram, it borrows them from the laptop mobo's ddr3 ram, and thus the ram is significantly slower than dedicated ram built onto the chip itself. On the contrary, the Gateway has 128 mbs of dedicated ram built onto the chip itself, which makes a huge difference and on top of that can borrow another 256 mbs of ram from the laptop's ddr3 ram if it ever needs to. And no, even the 9600GT is not a $200 card anymore. I guarentee you that Apple pays Nvidea no more than $40 for it at most.

I said equivalent in the next generation MacBook Pro. Do you read my posts before replying?
And I never once said the 9400M had dedicated memory. Regardless, the intel graphics are the bare minimum for current GPUs and comparing to older hardware is irrelevant. Furthermore its irrelevant what Apple pays nvidia for a chip, the cost you should be looking at is how much does Dell, HP, Sony, etc charge to upgrade to a better video card.
If your thread is about the current MacBooks being a rip off because the next generation of technology has been released, I can agree, but if you are saying in general the MacBook Pro is a rip off, I disagree.

On a final note, when I picked up my MacBook Pro is late August/Early September, the windows laptops I was considering were about $900 and not plastic. The basically equivalent MacBook Pro was $1100 with an iPod. If I had no interest in an iPod, I could have seen myself passing this by, but considering an iPod is worth about $200, the price difference was minimalized between a windows laptop and a MacBook Pro. This might not be true for everyone, but it was for me at the time of purchase. So paying retail was not really an option for myself either.

 

[wikoogle]

And it's illegal to install OS X on anything other than a mac.

Lol, it's not illegal. You have every right as an enduser to install OSX that you legally purchase onto any device that you want. It's the same legal justification for why it's legal for you to back up a cd or videogame that you purchased, as long as you don't give the backup out to other people.

What you meant to say is that it's against Apple's policy for you install OSX on a nonapple machine.

And in actually, it's Apple's policy that is very likely a violation of antitrust laws. In the same fashion it is illegal for Apple to block Google Chrome or Mozilla Firefox from making and releasing a competing web browser for the iPad.

If some one was to sue Apple on these grounds, Apple would in fact lose.

Remember what happened to Microsoft. Microsoft was fined as being in violation of antitrust laws for merely bundling Internet Explorer with Windows.

Apple goes way beyond that. Not only do they bundle Safari with the iPhone OS, they actively disallow competitors from making competing browsers or competing products such as Google Voice.

It's actually a very blatant violation of antitrust and I expect that it won't be long before Apple gets sued for it, and ends up having to pay a fine and change their policy.

 

[mofunk]

Yeah, they're great laptops, I'm not saying they aren't. And anyone that has disposable income couldn't go wrong in getting one. I'm just saying they're not a great value for the price and at the very least, Apple needs to hurry up and include basics like an i5 processor, a better graphics card, hdmi and bluray into their MBPs if they still want to keep catering to the high end market.

You have a valid argument. It also can be applied to everything we purchase. The bottom line is how much are you willing to spend. I have several Sony Walkmans and iPods. Hands down the sound quality is far better on my Walkman. But I don't mind spending money for an iPod because it's convenient.

The same goes for Macbook Pro. I paid $2500 for my Powerbook G4 and it still works after 7yrs. Before I paid for it, I asked myself if I was getting the most bang for my buck? For me it's connivence.

If you have a product and demand for one, you can set you're own price. What is Apple's overhead? How much does it cost to run a company like this? As a marketing stand point they've kept their Computers prices pretty much the same since the first Powerbook which came with 1 Ram slot, Max Ram 8MB, Processor speed 16 Mhz, and 20MB hard drive. ($2500) Again how do you price your product?

Back to your question, I honestly think it's priced fair. Buying any car, will do what it suppose to do... get you from point A to point B. We live in a world of choices. You can choose to buy a Bimmer or a Toyota. Both will get you to your destination. As for a PC or MBP, the MBP will get you there but a lot cooler. Plus you don't have to go out and buy extra gear.

 

[maddan]

Whether one wants to admit it or not, when buying an Apple computer, one pays not just for the hardware, but for the name. Not to mention, Apple computers require less software maintenance than others, as they are not prone to the same weaknesses as PCs. That reliability comes at a premium price, and rightly so. And if you feel ripped off by Apple, then I would suggest not buying from them again. It's as simple as that; no need for masochism.

 

[4x4bob]

It's really a whole lot simpler than everyone is trying to make this discussion.

A cheap $500 superior laptop has WINDOWS installed....and the cost of dealing with MICROSOFT's POS OS is about $2,000.

You can look around and find "superior" specs, but it mostly comes down to brand perception. You want to spend $500 on an ACER computer, then do so. If Apple charges a price that the market supports (supply and demand), as do nearly every other manufacturer.

I'd rather drive my Macbook Pro than a POS Windoze machine.

 

[wikoogle]

It's really a whole lot simpler than everyone is trying to make this discussion.

A cheap $500 superior laptop has WINDOWS installed....and the cost of dealing with MICROSOFT's POS OS is about $2,000.

Have you ever used Windows 7. It's just as stable, fast and secure as OS X. Just install Microsoft Security Essentials onto it (it's a completely free download for all Windows users) and I dont see how you could possibly get a virus on it.

I will give you that Macbook Pros and iMacs look badass though, way cooler than any Windows laptops and desktops I've ever used.

 

[kny3twalker]

Have you ever used Windows 7. It's just as stable, fast and secure as OS X. Just install Microsoft Security Essentials onto it (it's a completely free download for all Windows users) and I dont see how you could possibly get a virus on it.

I will give you that Macbook Pros and iMacs look badass though, way cooler than any Windows laptops and desktops I've ever used.

I like Windows too. Not so much MSE though. Nonetheless, the MacBook Pro and Mac Pro are bad ass machines.

 

[neteng101]

I'd rather drive my Macbook Pro than a POS Windoze machine.

I have both. You can thank S. Jobs for not making a Macbook Mini ie. a netbook, instead of this iPad contraption that can't even do Flash.

 

[4x4bob]

Have you ever used Windows 7. It's just as stable, fast and secure as OS X. Just install Microsoft Security Essentials onto it (it's a completely free download for all Windows users) and I dont see how you could possibly get a virus on it.

I will give you that Macbook Pros and iMacs look badass though, way cooler than any Windows laptops and desktops I've ever used.

After just 24 years, Microsoft came up with a stable version??? Uh, yeah, I seriously doubt it. I tried 1.0, 3.1, 95, 98, ME, XP, Vista, there's really no reason to continue the pain and suffering.

Anyway, you can single out any brand that charges a "high" price in your opinion and anyone can make an argument that it's overpriced. Have you ever priced an Alienware laptop?

My personal experience has been that the PC laptops tend to last me 18 months before I wish to upgrade. My experience with Apple has been that I can keep the same laptop for well past 3 years before considering an upgrade or replacement.

 

[airplaneman]

What happened to factoring in R&D costs? Shipping? Warranty? Promotion? Etc.?

 

[coast1ja]

What happened to factoring in R&D costs? Shipping? Warranty? Promotion? Etc.?

They do!... they have to or they wouldn't make money.

The real question here... would you rather have FOUR gateways with all those goodies, or ONE MBP.

FYI... I'm currently typing on a 2.66 15" MBP with 256gb SSD.

 

[Bitmap Frog]

Apple has a global 30something% gross margin, so go figure.

 

[Techhie]

Lol, it's not illegal. You have every right as an enduser to install OSX that you legally purchase onto any device that you want.

If some one was to sue Apple on these grounds, Apple would in fact lose.

I would like to see you go head-to-head with Apple's legal team if you are so confident in your understanding of copyright laws.

 

[macjunk(ie)]

My personal experience has been that the PC laptops tend to last me 18 months before I wish to upgrade. My experience with Apple has been that I can keep the same laptop for well past 3 years before considering an upgrade or replacement.

no offense intended but that's probably because one would find it difficult to afford a MBP every 18 months....

 

[NT1440]

no offense intended but that's probably because one would find it difficult to afford a MBP every 18 months....

ACtually, its because macs have a reputation for lasting. My aunts powerbook g4 ha finally been replaced, not because it needed to be, but because my uncle couldn't figure out what to get her for Xmas

Yes you do get some PCs that last a good amount of time, but it seems to be the exception to the rule.

 

[masterpace]

Buying a MacBook Pro over a Dell is like buying a Mercedes instead of a Ford.

Macbook Pro a Mercedes? Maybe your Macbook Pro is a Mercedes in terms of design, but my Alienware, which is made by Dell by the way, is the Ferrari of both! It's much faster and has a sporty look too.

 

[NT1440]

Macbook Pro a Mercedes? Maybe your Macbook Pro is a Mercedes in terms of design, but my Alienware, which is made by Dell by the way, is the Ferrari of both! It's much faster and has a sporty look too.

Right.

Alienware's are powerful, i give you that, but hideous comes to mind when i think of those orange or blue backlit keyboards, ugh.

 

[Kestrel87]

This isn't really the point I was making, but regardless, to address your post...

The gateway doesn't have an i3, it indeed has an i5 processor. It was simply mislabeled. Read the thread I linked to in the OP if you don't believe me.

Fine. I took that into account in my post. I said...

Either way, it's probably worth about $50-$100 more than a Core 2 Duo. As has already been pointed out in this thread, once Apple updates the MBP line, this advantage will go away.

Moving on...

Regardless, your math seems off, and you seem to have overvalued apple's parts.

For example, you claim that the 2 year old GPU in the Macbook Pro costs $300 more than than the just released 128 mb dedicated ram GPU in the Gateway, which seems like quite a stretch. There's no way the 9600 costs more than $60 nowadays.

I quote myself again...

Another discrepancy - Gateway says this laptop has no dedicated graphics, but you claim it has a 128MB dedicated graphics card. The MBP has a 256MB dedicated nVidia card. If your laptop does have a dedicated card, I'd still put that at $50 MBP advantage. If it doesn't, that's a whopping $300 or so in the MBP's favor.

Now, I could have sworn you had 128 MB in your original post, which is where my $50 MBP advantage came in (128 MB more VRAM). The $300 figure comes from, if you'd just read what I wrote, if the Gateway doesn't have a dedicated card, which is what Gateway's specs say. There's that word, "If."

In addition, you post says that you can get a Macbook Pro with the dedicated graphics card, a 500 GB HDD etc for $1700 when in fact, a Macbook with those specifications costs $2300.

I assume you've been comparing this Gateway to the $2300 MBP, which is where I've been getting my MBP specs. I didn't say you could get that MBP for $1700, I said...

A 30% profit margin puts the MBP around $1700, which, if you look at everything I've laid out, is about right.

If the 30% profit margin is based on the manufacturing price,

$2300 / 1.3 = $1769

Else, if it's based on the sale price,

$2300 * 0.7 = $1610.

Hence the estimate of about $1700 manufacturing cost.

 

[masterpace]

Right.

Alienware's are powerful, i give you that, but hideous comes to mind when i think of those orange or blue backlit keyboards, ugh.

Well, you may always customize those backlight keyboard lights to be white too. http://images.macrumors.com/vb/images/smilies/biggrin.gif Actually, I own both (a 13" MBP and an Alienware M15x). Both are great machines. But they obviously serve different purposes. I'm currently typing on my MBP.

 

[kny3twalker]

Now, I could have sworn you had 128 MB in your original post, which is where my $50 MBP advantage came in (128 MB more VRAM). The $300 figure comes from, if you'd just read what I wrote, if the Gateway doesn't have a dedicated card, which is what Gateway's specs say. There's that word, "If."


I assume you've been comparing this Gateway to the $2300 MBP, which is where I've been getting my MBP specs. I didn't say you could get that MBP for $1700, I said...

The gateway does not have a dedicated graphics card, it has an integrated graphics chip with its own dedicated memory, which as the 9400M shares system memory and the 9600GT has dedicated memory.

And according to the video card specs, you were actually comparing the $2000 MacBook Pro 15 as the $2000 MacBook Pro has 256 dedicated memory and the $2300 MacBook Pro 15 has 512 dedicated memory.

I think you should go back and read my posts cause some of your reasoning for price differentials are incorrect.

 

[macjunk(ie)]

Well...though it pains me to say it...I am with the OP on this one. The MBP is really expensive for what it does today....

For me, using an OS is a sort of investment cause eventually, I would like to master the OS so that I can focus on my work....the easier the OS, the easier it is to master and hence I can get my work done that much faster. This is where the Mac OS comes in....

BUT...the recent events however have forced me to think about the viability of using the Mac OS and in effect...Apple products...Agreed that they are the most innovative of the lot..agreed that they design products which rivals find it hard to clone even (case in point : HP Envy).. agreed that they have the best OS out there...but when it comes to choice..there are very few and the few choices available are really expensive.

I mean...c'mon...hw are they expecting people to shell out 2grand on a machine which is still powered by C2D...??? I do not sense any urgency in them to introduce those models either...all the manufacturers are moving towards core processors but not the Macs...nah...
Apparently...Steve likes to focus on toys (Ipad)now...it is very unsettling to have one's choice totally dictated by one man's fancy....

And we take all this frustration because......??? Its not as if the Mac OS is the Jesus OS...From my perspective as a business user...I am convinced that using a Mac is always going to be a pain..cause whether we like it or not...the business speaks Microsoft lingo...bottom line! The whole point of buying a Mac is 'it just works' ...but not for a business user...he will need to buy Parallels and Windows or Windows only...install Windows...and then wonder..if all he is doing is working on Windows in a Mac..then the why the hell did he ever go for a Mac!!!???

Okay...enough of my rants...I am looking forward to the updates...and I will be very interested at the price points at which they will come...Apple is good but it can't take us for granted...I just wish Sony, HP, Dell do a better job of setting Apple's a** on fire and get things moving..maybe then they will not focus on building toys for my grandma...

 

[IntelliUser]

Have you ever used Windows 7. It's just as stable, fast and secure as OS X. Just install Microsoft Security Essentials onto it (it's a completely free download for all Windows users) and I dont see how you could possibly get a virus on it.

None of what you said matches my nor my family's nor my friend's experience. OS X still > Windows as far as we're concerned.