Is it a good time to buy?

[john123]

This guy spends his time teaching lessons to everyone. We get it now. Though I'm pretty sure it must be exhausting on an everyday basis. I'm glad I'm able to smile at life instead of spending my days being the moral police of MR.com

People amaze me.

Lessons? No. Constructive disagreement is at the heart of productive discourse. That's enjoyable and useful—not exhausting.

Glad to amaze you, though!

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I have to agree with Quu on this one. There's absolutely no end "The next model will be better". And EVERYONE always speculates that the next model will be a vast improvement over what was just released. If you go by "waiting because the next model will be superior", you'll always be waiting and you'll never have a computer.

Gotta disagree. First off, there are roadmaps, so the speculation is somewhat informed. Granted, people often go off half-cocked on boards like this and get their hopes up, facts be damned, but that's a separate issue.

Second, sometimes the next model is a big upgrade, and sometimes it isn't. As a result, that means that there's a logical gap between the first part of your quoted statement and your second. As long as all a person is waiting on is a "decent" or "worthwhile" upgrade, then they won't "always be waiting."

 

[Windows&Apple]

Well, when I started this thread, I wanted to know if my chances of getting a macbook now was good because the screen flaws and such might have been filtered out, but regardless, this next update is pretty interesting

 

[simon48]

Well, when I started this thread, I wanted to know if my chances of getting a macbook now was good because the screen flaws and such might have been filtered out, but regardless, this next update is pretty interesting

And the one after it and the one after that and the one after that and th...

 

[Windows&Apple]

And the one after it and the one after that and the one after that and th...

Lol exactly

 

[Beezy253]

I will be waiting until Apple addresses the issue.

If i'm going to spend $2k, it better be 100% out the box.

 

[AGuyInATown]

And the one after it and the one after that and the one after that and th...

This is exactly what I meant...

 

[toneLA]

Lessons? No. Constructive disagreement is at the heart of productive discourse. That's enjoyable and useful—not exhausting.

Glad to amaze you, though!

There are ways to talk to people. Most of the time, you sound condescending and you seem to be in need of the last word. I don't think that's the point on MR.

Most people don't have your incredible knowledge about everything related to Apple and even if they are in the wrong and claim something you disagree with, having a voice doesn't necessarily mean going all out on them.

I know exactly what's gonna follow my comment and can easily predict your response. I'm not trying to be right and say you're ultimately wrong, I just believe the format you use to deliver your information is sometimes way off. And quite frankly, I don't believe to be the only one to feel this way.

Let's just all take a breather and realize we're talking about yellow screens, dGPU glitches - essentially 1st world problems.

 

[john123]

I know exactly what's gonna follow my comment and can easily predict your response. I'm not trying to be right and say you're ultimately wrong, I just believe the format you use to deliver your information is sometimes way off. And quite frankly, I don't believe to be the only one to feel this way.

Thank you for your feedback.

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I will be waiting until Apple addresses the issue.

If i'm going to spend $2k, it better be 100% out the box.

That will never, ever happen. There are always issues affecting some small percentage of units. That's why there are things like warranties and exchanges.

 

[Windows&Apple]

I will be waiting until Apple addresses the issue.

If i'm going to spend $2k, it better be 100% out the box.

I agree, Apple did address the track pad issue, but they won't address the yellowing.

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On a side note, I'll be picking up a 2.3 tomorrow and I'll post benchmarks on my steam library. If anyone's interested.

 

[Xerotech]

Definitely the next batch and make sure you get a Sammy LCD.
LG can **** me.

 

[Windows&Apple]

Definitely the next batch and make sure you get a Sammy LCD.
LG can **** me.

Awe crap. When's the next batch due?

 

[Windows&Apple]

Well, I suppose its store to store, huh?

 

[Windows&Apple]

Definitely the next batch and make sure you get a Sammy LCD.
LG can **** me.

Also, why not the LG screens? What was wrong?

 

[Voca]

Stay away from 2012/2013 MBP!!!

2012 and 2013 MacBook Pro's are the least upgradable or repairable MacBooks so far.
Everything is soldered to the logic board - ram, hdd.
No upgrades and no repairs....unless you pay Apple directly!

 

[john123]

2012 and 2013 MacBook Pro's are the least upgradable or repairable MacBooks so far.
Everything is soldered to the logic board - ram, hdd.
No upgrades and no repairs....unless you pay Apple directly!

Well, at least you aren't hiding the fact that you have an axe to grind...

 

[Tears Apart]

2012 and 2013 MacBook Pro's are the least upgradable or repairable MacBooks so far.
Everything is soldered to the logic board - ram, hdd.
No upgrades and no repairs....unless you pay Apple directly!

Why would that be a good reason to stay away?

I couldn't mind less if I can't upgrade/repair my laptop as long as I can get it fixed for free for two years from purchase (in Europe) and for three years if I get AppleCare.

 

[Freyqq]

I agree with the latter part, but not the former part. As upgrades go, this last batch of 15"ers is pretty ho-hum. Broadwell should offer a pretty significant performance improvement. This isn't a horrible time to buy, but I don't think it's fair to call this a great time to buy either.

If you want discrete graphics on a 15", now is definitely the time to buy. I highly doubt it will be an option next revision.

If you want a 13", now is also definitely the time to buy. They just did a case revision and increased the battery life and speed by a lot.

 

[john123]

If you want discrete graphics on a 15", now is definitely the time to buy. I highly doubt it will be an option next revision.

Your first sentence reads a little bit like "discrete good; integrated bad." That's slightly misguided, although I agree with your second sentence. The reason a dGPU will be unlikely in the next revision is that Broadwell will likely deliver a 30-40% improvement in iGPU performance. Assuming those numbers are roughly accurate, that will make the next iGPU equal to or better than the 750M in pretty much everything. And since next-generation NVIDIA dGPUs won't be an option, they're irrelevant for comparison purposes for buyers.

 

[simon48]

2012 and 2013 MacBook Pro's are the least upgradable or repairable MacBooks so far.
Everything is soldered to the logic board - ram, hdd.
No upgrades and no repairs....unless you pay Apple directly!

Some of this is not true. The SSD is not soldered to the logic board, SSD can removed and OWC sells replacement SSDs (they are still working on SSDs for the new rMBPs). Because the RAM is soldered to the logic board Apple can't really replace it, unless you want to pay for a new logic board which can be over $1000.

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Your first sentence reads a little bit like "discrete good; integrated bad." That's slightly misguided, although I agree with your second sentence. The reason a dGPU will be unlikely in the next revision is that Broadwell will likely deliver a 30-40% improvement in iGPU performance. Assuming those numbers are roughly accurate, that will make the next iGPU equal to or better than the 750M in pretty much everything. And since next-generation NVIDIA dGPUs won't be an option, they're irrelevant for comparison purposes for buyers.

The 750m is close to twice as fast as the Iris Pro at high settings in games. So a 30-40% boost isn't enough to be faster for a lot of things.

 

[Freyqq]

Your first sentence reads a little bit like "discrete good; integrated bad." That's slightly misguided, although I agree with your second sentence. The reason a dGPU will be unlikely in the next revision is that Broadwell will likely deliver a 30-40% improvement in iGPU performance. Assuming those numbers are roughly accurate, that will make the next iGPU equal to or better than the 750M in pretty much everything. And since next-generation NVIDIA dGPUs won't be an option, they're irrelevant for comparison purposes for buyers.

Perhaps in raw speed, but intel drivers are notoriously bad for opengl and gaming support. I agree that the next gen iGPU will likely beat out the 750M by a small margin in all areas, but gaming performance will be pretty even due to bad drivers. And even in raw speed, the iGPU still has to compete without 2GB of dedicated GDDR5. As resolutions and textures increase in size, the iGPU will be less and less efficient. We'll see in about a year.

Clearly not everyone's use case, but worth consideration for current buyers.

 

[john123]

The 750m is close to twice as fast as the Iris Pro at high settings in games. So a 30-40% boost isn't enough to be faster for a lot of things.

What benchmarks are you looking at? Anandtech's showed max gaps of up to maybe 50%, and many less. I'd consider that within spitting distance, assuming the 30-40% improvement in iGPUs applies to gaming, OpenGL, etc.

Also, I didn't say "faster." I said, "equal to or better than." Gaming is obviously an area where we should feel happy to see parity with the 750M in Broadwell.

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intel drivers are notoriously bad for opengl and gaming support.

In addition to the above, while I agree with this, it also seems like we're entering a new era for this stuff. Apple's part of the reason Intel has stepped up its game in the first place. To some degree, the lack of OpenGL drivers has been a chicken-and-egg problem: serious gamers/OpenGL folks were never going to use Intel's iGPUs, so there wasn't much reason to advance that development. I expect we'll see that change going forward.

 

[simon48]

What benchmarks are you looking at? Anandtech's showed max gaps of up to maybe 50%, and many less. I'd consider that within spitting distance, assuming the 30-40% improvement in iGPUs applies to gaming, OpenGL, etc.

Also, I didn't say "faster." I said, "equal to or better than." Gaming is obviously an area where we should feel happy to see parity with the 750M in Broadwell.

Oh my God, did you really just say that!? I'll give you a tip, when you are talking about GPU speeds "better then" = "faster".

How about this one: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6993/intel-iris-pro-5200-graphics-review-core-i74950hq-tested/10

And you have to keep in mind that the 750m is a little bit faster then the 650m. Also the 750m has 2GB of VRAM so that should help some more at higher settings.

 

[john123]

Oh my God, did you really just say that!? I'll give you a tip, when you are talking about GPU speeds "better then" = "faster".

And I'll give you a tip: reading comprehension is a beautiful thing. I'll add emphasis to the relevant part this time:

equal to or better than

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How about this one: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6993/intel-iris-pro-5200-graphics-review-core-i74950hq-tested/10

That matches what I said perfectly. Calculate the percentages yourself if you don't believe me.


Another hint: when you do those calculations, you'll find that this claim does not match up with the benchmarks:

The 750m is close to twice as fast as the Iris Pro at high settings in games.

 

[simon48]

And I'll give you a tip: reading comprehension is a beautiful thing. I'll add emphasis to the relevant part this time:

You still said "or better than", the emphasis doesn't change that you said "or better than", the difference between "equal to" and "better then" is infinitely small. I'll add "or equal to" to my statement just to even it out. For someone who seems so specific you seem to be wrong a lot (see below).

That matches what I said perfectly. Calculate the percentages yourself if you don't believe me.

Another hint: when you do those calculations, you'll find that this claim does not match up with the benchmarks:

All right:
42.4 fps + 8% (for the difference from the 650m to the 750m, this might be off depending on how the rMBPs 750m is clocked)
= 45.792 fps

+ 10% (for the extra 1GB of VRAM, I think this potentially could be more than that and you should be able to set the settings higher without a hit in fps)
= 50.3712 fps

/ 27.4 fps = 1.838 so 83.8%

I said close to 100% and I get 83.8%, that's not that for off. We'll see for sure when AnandTech's review comes out. I may be off a little bit (and I said close), but you were off by a mile.

 

[john123]

You still said "or better than", the emphasis doesn't change that you said "or better than",

If you don't know what "or" means, I don't know that I have that much more to say.

insert horrible math here

Battlefield 3 HQ: The 650M performs at 36.6FPS. Take the Iris Pro 5200 and scale it up 40%, and that's 32.1FPS. That's within spitting distance as far as I'm concerned—a heck of a lot closer, in fact, than your claim that 83.8% is about equal to 100%.

+ 10% (for the extra 1GB of VRAM, I think this potentially could be more than that and you should be able to set the settings higher without a hit in fps)

And at this point, you're just making up numbers. That's cute and all, but is hardly grounds for claiming, "NO U WRONG BRO." Also, I love how you cherry-picked the game with the biggest gap. Again, still cute.

Edit: Here, I'll do the work for you. Complete with all the calculations. And then average it. Shocking, what do you know—the average without cherry-picking comes out to 36%, right in the middle of that "30-40%" number I've been talking about. It sure is great when one doesn't bias data selection in favor of the argument they're trying to make.

Game GT650M Iris Pro 47W Percentage Difference
Metro 20.0 15.3 30.7%
Bioshock 35.5 24.2 46.7%
Sleeping Dogs 28.4 19.3 47.2%
Tomb Raider 44.0 31.4 40.1%
Battlefield 36.6 22.9 59.8%
Crysis 3 32.0 22.3 43.5%
Crysis: WH 34.5 29.0 19.0%
Grid 2 30.2 30.8 -1.9%
Total 35.6%

when AnandTech's review comes out. I may be off a little bit (and I said close), but you were off by a mile.

See above.