Is Leopard really worth all this headache?

[JNB]

I like how you guys are like "what stress?", "what problems?", "what are you talking about?"... Look at the forum.. If you can read ... people ARE HAVING PROBLEMS!!

Many of them self-induced.

Rule of thumb here is to NEVER upgrade when:
1. Unsupported UI "enhancers" are installed
2. Mission-critical production apps are in use
3. Recoverable backup/clone has not been performed immediately prior to the upgrade

Jumping into ANY upgrade (whether it be complete OS or a dot-version) is and always has been an "at-your-own-risk" proposition. No OS developer can or will guarantee 100% compliance with any particular combination of apps, utilities, and processes.

Not saying that some folks aren't having some issues, but then most aren't. And for those that are having problems, seeking assistance on a forum only helps when a detailed description of the problem, how it differs from pre-upgrade, and some current configuration parameters for troubleshooting are essential. Simple, anecdotal offerings, either with or without problems, don't prove or resolve anything.

Following this cycle for years, I'd still have to say that the vast majority of problems encountered are generally not related to the actual upgrade, but steps taken or bypassed in the upgrade process. Impatience and unrealistic expectations are rampant.

My 2.16 MB took the 341MB update, did the whole two-reboot thing, and was back to me fully in about twenty minutes. The G5 iMac took the 180MB update, "hung" for quite a while, rebooted, found more updates, rebooted again, and was back to normal in about forty minutes. Completely different experiences, but ultimately both were perfect as expected, and as I had SuperDuper! clones mere hours old, totally stress-free.

I would suggest that folks encountering suspected 10.5.2 issues approach them the same way any other unexplained behavior should be on the forum. Do a search here for similar issues and post on those threads, check the Apple KB, and refrain from the new thread "10.5.2 sux" commentary, as it doesn't solve their problem and just adds to the clutter. We can't help otherwise, and are likely to simply "tune out" the noise.

 

[Skiniftz]

Care to elaborate? I've been using Leopard every day since it was released and it hasn't "fallen over" once.

Sure - how about USB problems on the MacBook Pro for a start - like you wake from sleep, then no USB. Then we have the airport issues (however lets see how 10.5.2 pans out on that - I've not had time to test properly yet - I'm trying a sacrificial G4 Powerbook from now on).

I don't see anything about USB fixes in the Apple fix list for 10.5.2

Then we have the screen freeze where your screen looks ok, you can move the mouse, but the screen does not change. You can operate your apps using the keyboard and you can hear stuff happening, but no screen updates. I am hoping the graphics update has resolved this but who knows.

For those of us that use machines for more than email, these things are kind of important. I've gone back to Tiger on the MBP as that machine absolutely no excuses has to be rock solid, particularly with USB. Am trying to stick it out on the Mac Pro (mainly as there are graphics driver issues under Tiger on the Mac Pro if you can shoe horn it on there) however I'm having firewire problems with Leopard.

Leopard is simply not ready yet for serious use IMO. Damn iPhone.

 

[aross99]

Sure - how about USB problems on the MacBook Pro for a start - like you wake from sleep, then no USB. Then we have the airport issues (however lets see how 10.5.2 pans out on that - I've not had time to test properly yet - I'm trying a sacrificial G4 Powerbook from now on).

I don't see anything about USB fixes in the Apple fix list for 10.5.2

Then we have the screen freeze where your screen looks ok, you can move the mouse, but the screen does not change. You can operate your apps using the keyboard and you can hear stuff happening, but no screen updates. I am hoping the graphics update has resolved this but who knows.

For those of us that use machines for more than email, these things are kind of important. I've gone back to Tiger on the MBP as that machine absolutely no excuses has to be rock solid, particularly with USB. Am trying to stick it out on the Mac Pro (mainly as there are graphics driver issues under Tiger on the Mac Pro if you can shoe horn it on there) however I'm having firewire problems with Leopard.

Leopard is simply not ready yet for serious use IMO. Damn iPhone.

Obviously everyone is not having these types of problems. Some are, but most are not.

I certanly use my MBP for more than just e-mail, and I don't have any USB issues, Airport Issues, or screen freezes like you are talking about.

On the machines I have worked on (2 iMac G5's, 1 G4 Mini, 1 G4 PB, 2 MB, and 1MBP), all are as stable on Leopard as they were on Tiger.

Issues with the Airport Disk is another subject entirely...

 

[kunze50]

opinion

I like how you guys are like "what stress?", "what problems?", "what are you talking about?"... Look at the forum.. If you can read ... people ARE HAVING PROBLEMS!!

Posts are usually only problem related; the new update release is why it seems like so many issues have uprise. This update was a very positive one for me.

 

[Amigaman]

Sure - how about USB problems on the MacBook Pro for a start - like you wake from sleep, then no USB. Then we have the airport issues (however lets see how 10.5.2 pans out on that - I've not had time to test properly yet - I'm trying a sacrificial G4 Powerbook from now on).

I don't see anything about USB fixes in the Apple fix list for 10.5.2

Then we have the screen freeze where your screen looks ok, you can move the mouse, but the screen does not change. You can operate your apps using the keyboard and you can hear stuff happening, but no screen updates. I am hoping the graphics update has resolved this but who knows.

For those of us that use machines for more than email, these things are kind of important. I've gone back to Tiger on the MBP as that machine absolutely no excuses has to be rock solid, particularly with USB. Am trying to stick it out on the Mac Pro (mainly as there are graphics driver issues under Tiger on the Mac Pro if you can shoe horn it on there) however I'm having firewire problems with Leopard.

Leopard is simply not ready yet for serious use IMO. Damn iPhone.

I'm using a MacBook Pro that I bought back in September 2007 and I'm not experiencing any of those issues. I use it every day at work (programming, database & system administration, etc.) and it's my primary system at home. I'm not "just checking email" as you so sarcastically imply.

 

[iCeFuSiOn]

I'm using a MacBook Pro that I bought back in September 2007 and I'm not experiencing any of those issues. I use it every day at work (programming, database & system administration, etc.) and it's my primary system at home. I'm not "just checking email" as you so sarcastically imply.

I can vouch for this as well, absolutely no issues on my MacBook Pro and I work with large images a lot (10,000 x 6,000 resolution), listen to music, write code, type assignments, browse the web, and whatever else and it's all been flawless.

 

[webgoat]

I can vouch for this as well, absolutely no issues on my MacBook Pro and I work with large images a lot (10,000 x 6,000 resolution), listen to music, write code, type assignments, browse the web, and whatever else and it's all been flawless.

yet another perfect functioning mbp with leopard here... not to mention no problems with vista ultimate in boot camp either... i must be blessed or something

 

[DesignerOnMac]

no issues here either.....

On my Alum iMac for 10 or 12 hours a day and no issues like your saying. Sorry for your problems.

 

[Neil321]

I like how you guys are like "what stress?", "what problems?", "what are you talking about?"... Look at the forum.. If you can read ... people ARE HAVING PROBLEMS!!

This is a forum in case you didnt know,people post there issues (what few there are)what about the countless others who are fine with leopard and dont post

No issues here

 

[mantic]

I use photoshop cs3 every day.. and from what i can tell so far there are issues with it that i can't deal with untill there is a fix.

 

[John01021988]

No problems here, I did an OS upgrade. Never been happier 😛

 

[ceres]

I am still suffering from the Mac Pro can´t wake up from sleep syndrome and still no larger icons for the Sidebar. Why is this possible in itunes but not in finder? I am going to have to wait for a hack or 10.5.9 to give me that option.

 

[Skiniftz]

I'm using a MacBook Pro that I bought back in September 2007 and I'm not experiencing any of those issues. I use it every day at work (programming, database & system administration, etc.) and it's my primary system at home. I'm not "just checking email" as you so sarcastically imply.

Great - perhaps you could explain to these guys:

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=6448465

How they must be imagining things then because your MBP is ok, therefore the problem doesn't exist right?

 

[scaredpoet]

I like how you guys are like "what stress?", "what problems?", "what are you talking about?"... Look at the forum.. If you can read ... people ARE HAVING PROBLEMS!!

People ALWAYS have problems on this forum. They've had them in Tiger too, and with Panther before that. This forum is primarily about problems and people searching for solutions. There'd be little reason for this forum to exist if it were filled with "NO PROBLEMS HERE WITH LEOPARD LOLZ" threads. In fact, the only time the "no probs" people come out is when people come in and say "OMG NO ONE SHOULD USE LEOPARD WORST OS EVAR!!!!" merely to point out that no, it's not universally true.

If you took the threads in this forum as representative of all Mac users, then it would be a wonder why OS X was ever adopted at all. But, it's not representative of all Mac users. Simply the ones having trouble.

By that logic Microsoft Windows should be the most amazingly awesome OS ever conceived.

Actually, at the time it kinda was. Sorry, but pre OS X, Mac OS as pretty lacking, and even Apple admits that. And between that and linux being quite unfriendly to run until recently, Windows gained momentum to the point where people assumed it was the ONLY choice. The fact that Mac OS is thriving in what many consider to be a monopoly is pretty interesting, actually.

 

[Markleshark]

FWIW, you can mark me down as another 'No Problems' 😉

 

[xUKHCx]

Before 10.5.2 then I would say no based on my problems but everyone has different problems.

After 10.5.2 what headache, now recommending my friends to install it.

 

[scaredpoet]

Great - perhaps you could explain to these guys:

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=6448465

How they must be imagining things then because your MBP is ok, therefore the problem doesn't exist right?

You should take care to note that in the thread you cite, a user (third post from the top) is having the same issue in Tiger.

I don't think anyone is saying the problems don't exist. But at the same time the reverse is true: while it's unfortunate some are having problems, that doesn't mean that someone is a lightweight simply because they are not having problems too. Nor does it mean that EVERYONE will have problems either, and therefore, should not use Leopard.

For the record, I have an MBP too that I frequently dock at work. I use the left USB port to attach to a bunch of devices on a hub, and I put it to sleep. Never even knew others were having a USB issue. Does that mean I think the people having problems are idiots somehow? No! I DO think it's probably some hardware issue on some MBPs, and it does need to be addressed.

 

[deputy_doofy]

Count me in as another who has not had any Leopard problems. Sure, start-up is much slower than it used to be, but that's about it.

Some of you, it seems, don't remember Tiger's humble beginnings. People were complaining how much more stable Panther was.

See:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/150106/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/129912/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/69402/

As you can see, happens every iteration.

 

[yoyo5280]

Don't blame Apple for your health problems. 😛

 

[Skiniftz]

You should take care to note that in the thread you cite, a user (third post from the top) is having the same issue in Tiger.

I don't think anyone is saying the problems don't exist. But at the same time the reverse is true: while it's unfortunate some are having problems, that doesn't mean that someone is a lightweight simply because they are not having problems too. Nor does it mean that EVERYONE will have problems either, and therefore, should not use Leopard.

For the record, I have an MBP too that I frequently dock at work. I use the left USB port to attach to a bunch of devices on a hub, and I put it to sleep. Never even knew others were having a USB issue. Does that mean I think the people having problems are idiots somehow? No! I DO think it's probably some hardware issue on some MBPs, and it does need to be addressed.

If it was a MBP hardware problem, then I would experience the same problem under Tiger, which I don't. It is entirely possible that the one guy with Tiger has an actual hardware fault.

Under Leopard, problem happens. Under Tiger, problem doesn't happen. Ergo, problem is with Leopard.

 

[xraydoc]

I like how you guys are like "what stress?", "what problems?", "what are you talking about?"... Look at the forum.. If you can read ... people ARE HAVING PROBLEMS!!

And before 10.5, the forums were filled with posts about people having problems with 10.4.

Really, if you don't like Leopard, you don't need to use it. But I personally have had no significant problems. There are a few things about 10.4 that I prefer (Spotlight window for one), but many things I like more about 10.5 (Finder, seemingly better memory management, and Time Machine to name a few). Most of the apps I use on a regular basis continued working, and the couple that didn't were updated right away (Nisus Writer for example).

I'm not blindly defending Apple - there are some people having legitimate issues. Some are user issues (applying the 10.5 update on top of hacks, things like that) and some are legitimate bugs. But I believe the vast majority of users are not having any trouble.

Don't forget, people post messages when the are having trouble, not when they aren't.

 

[CashGap]

Out of two operating systems where one is rock solid (Tiger) and the other is about as stable as Tom Cruise (Leopard) then I certainly wouldn't refer to the rock solid one as 'inferior'.

The job of an OS is to provide a platform to run apps. Not to be so full of whizz bang bells and whistles that it keeps falling over.

I was a little worried about my MBP when it came with Tiger. Lots of network connection flakiness/general "unfinished" feel to the OS.

Thankfully, Leopard fixed everything.

 

[Skiniftz]

And before 10.5, the forums were filled with posts about people having problems with 10.4.

That doesn't mean there were no problems - Tiger when first launched had a LOT of problems, however as of 10.4.11 it is rock solid.

Really, if you don't like Leopard, you don't need to use it.

If only it were that simple. I have a '2008' Mac Pro that has replaced my old G5 - Apple does not support me installing Tiger on there (I would if it would work properly - I've imaged it on there and booted it - it runs, but there are problems). As it stands I have an amazingly fast machine that some very expensive studio hardware I have really doesn't like. Sure the manufacturers are working on Leopard updates, but where does that leave me in the meantime? Considering we have the double whammy of migrating to Intel, would it not be prudent of Apple to simply release some form of installer / driver package to allow Tiger to be installed on the Mac Pro for we serious users who are having problems during the migration?

I held off upgrading to a Mac Pro for a long time due to waiting for Universal Binary updates. Now most things I use are UB, but now it's Leopard problems. I would quite happily use Tiger on the Mac Pro while waiting for Leopard to be fixed / other updates however I cannot. The alternative is I am forced to use an old computer.

 

[kcassidy]

New Here but having major issues - Long

Hi All:

My problems with Leopard could be my fault, I don't know but I'm hoping I can share whats going on and get some insight.

I am a computer tech, who learned all there was to know about windows up to XP. Then I got sick of the instability and expenses of MS and switched to a Mac, as they say I've never gone back 😀

But I don't know the OS like I did Win2K and WinXP. I had a MBP (an older non intel one) and now I have an iMAC. I also convinced one of my clients to slowly get off PC's and go to mac's. Whenever he needed an upgrade he bought mac's instead of PC's.

He has 2 MBP's running Tiger, 3 iBooks running Tiger and around xmas I got him to buy 2 new iMac's, 1 a 20" and 1 a 24"

Both have 2gb of memory.

The 20" came with Tiger and the 24 with Leopard. I upgraded the 20" and the user had nothing but problems. Office 2004 crashed in word, excel constantly. Opening documents over the network (on a Win2K server) takes up to a minute on the new Leopards but is instantaneous on the ibooks and the remaining PC's.

I installed Parallels, that crashes constantly. iTunes crashes and the machines are slow slow slow. You can click on a program and the wheel will spin for 30 seconds or more. Even if the program is already open.

I did go back to the account and reinstall Leopard as a clean install, still no good.

The 24" that came preinstalled has a lot of the same issues.

All updates have been run on both machines.

I'm wondering if I have some network issue? I have set the 2 machines workgroups to the windows domain and turned on SMB.

I don't have any of the Remote Management software turned on thinking that was a problem.

Do you think I should go back to Tiger for now?

I called Apple but they say nothing is wrong.

Also could you all recommend a good book(s) for a techie to pick up to learn more of the inner workings of Tiger/Leopard. So far all I can find is books for the users.

Thanks

Kim Cassidy

 

[Skiniftz]

I was a little worried about my MBP when it came with Tiger. Lots of network connection flakiness/general "unfinished" feel to the OS.

Thankfully, Leopard fixed everything.

I think you have them mixed up there - Tiger is well refined and stable. Leopard is unfinished.