Is M1 base really that superior to Intel i9 or i7?

[MauiPa]

The Air will slow down if asked to do multithreaded tasks for long periods of time - it has no fan, so it can't sustain peak performance forever. And Geekbench only measures peak since the tests run for short periods of time. If you were doing something that exercised all cores for long periods of time, the 2019 would likely be faster.

If this is something which concerns you, you'd want to upgrade to the 13" MacBook Pro at minimum. It has a fan and will maintain the performance as measured in Geekbench indefinitely.

I did see comparison tests a long time ago where, in some workloads, the late 2019 i9 could beat a M1. But in general, yes that performance is real. The M1 is very good relative to what Intel was making in 2019.

On RAM - If you actually need 32GB, you still need 32GB. Lots of people get confused ideas about how RAM relates to performance. The real way to look at it is that once you have enough RAM, your software will run as fast as it can given the CPU and GPU you've got, and if you don't have enough RAM, performance will suffer. There's usually not a lot of benefit to more RAM than that minimum amount.

Basically, if your workload causes tons of swapping at 16GB RAM, and little or none at 32GB, you want 32 for sure. If you think that's the case, look at a 14" or 16" with M1 Pro. (and as an additional benefit, these machines will offer a substantial performance upgrade over the M1 13" and Air, especially for any software which uses the GPU.)

and to mention, you can easily see memory pressure in activity monitor.

 

[MauiPa]

I've not yet seen a comparison with an Alder Lake Hackintosh. I'd guess that the Alder Lake comes out on top.

Apple Silicon is a great architecture but the original M1 implementation has a lot of limitations.

I'd guess that would depend on the alder Lake of course. alder Lake (high end) was designed to compete with M1 Max and M1 Pro, M1 is a more basic SOC, but probably competes handily with lower end alder Lake

 

[MauiPa]

I've not yet seen a comparison with an Alder Lake Hackintosh. I'd guess that the Alder Lake comes out on top.

Apple Silicon is a great architecture but the original M1 implementation has a lot of limitations.

I'd guess that would depend on the alder Lake of course. alder Lake (high end) was designed to compete with M1 Max and M1 Pro, M1 is a more basic SOC, but probably competes handily with lower end alder Lake. Oh and lets not forget the thermals on alder Lake

 

[pshufd]

I'm not forgetting about those chips, M1 Pro and Max are exclusively the new MacBook Pros for now. The M1 has been a rocket out of the gate. I'm saying we haven't seen what Apple has in mind for the last of the Macs that have yet to transition. I suspect the Pro and Max will be seen in a Mac mini (high end) and iMac 27-inch. The flex I was referencing was against Alder Lake that is just in desktop form, I can see Apple crushing them pretty easily with their silicone. It is going to get better from here. The fact these chips required Intel to make such huge power suckers in Alder Lake is entertaining, so I can't wait to see what these models are packing.

Rumors are that there will be a 12-performance core option in the iMac Pro, currently expected in September. I guess that they want higher Geekbench numbers than Alder Lake.

 

[pshufd]

I'd guess that would depend on the alder Lake of course. alder Lake (high end) was designed to compete with M1 Max and M1 Pro, M1 is a more basic SOC, but probably competes handily with lower end alder Lake. Oh and lets not forget the thermals on alder Lake

Intel doesn't care about thermals. They will take any win that they can. AMD's results yesterday shows impressive penetration into the server market where PPW is very important. Intel has to next defend their marketshare there.

A lot of consumers don't really care about thermals on desktop - as long as there's a good cooling solution. Nobody likes fan noise.

 

[pshufd]

I thought that once. Which is why in 2011 I ended up almost selling a kidney to buy a nearly new hugely over-specified (for my needs) 27" i7 3.4GHz iMac. 11 years later it still is more than I need in some ways, but in other ways that I couldn't have foreseen and couldn't have planned for, it has been increasingly obsolete for about 8 of the last 11 years, such as the graphics card which does not support metal, and the OS pegged to High Sierra.

It's obviously wise to future-proof to some extent. For example if you reckon you currently need 256GB for your current apps and data, don't just buy a 256GB model. But I think it's senseless to over-specify your purchase based on assumed future needs you don't yet know. Five years from now whatever you buy will be obsolete in ways you can't yet fathom because of the overall advancement of technology.

The past decade has shown huge growth in the cloud which means that old systems can be used for far longer because compute is done somewhere else. That's true for storage too.

From left to right: Windows i7-10700 Desktop, M1 mini, 2014 iMac, 2010 iMac. One of the most annoying thing about Windows is how Virtual Desktops works with multiple monitors. Apple gives you the option to have virtual desktops be for one screen or all screens. On Windows, it's all screens. I usually like to keep one screen fixed while being able to change another.

 

[bobcomer]

Come on, tell us how you *really* feel! 🙂

Fair comment, I was a bit grumpy yesterday. 🙂 Still, that M1 MBA is just sitting on a shelf gathering dust for me. 🙁

To add a different viewpoint, I think the M1 Mini I bought in December 2020 was the *best* computer that I had bought in decades, at least in terms of bang-for-buck.

It has a fan! My dislike of the Air was centered around 3 points, one was a lack of a fan (hot, throttling), and the other is that I need x86 VM capability to run Windows. And until Microsoft allows us to actually purchase a Windows on Arm License, I can't use it for work, and that is a requirement for me. I can see how that doesn't matter to a lot of people, but it does to me. Windows on Arm isn't exactly a speed demon on the M1 either, and it definitely causes a lot of my heat problem, not to mention it doesn't run everything x86.

My Air only has 16G of RAM, and that's really not enough for me either. I tend to run a lot of different things all the time. That's why my Intel Mac Mini with a lot more RAM actually is a better fit for what I want to do.

I had a decently specc'd 14" MBP Max on order for awhile to replace my MBA, but I decided to wait until the WoA situation gets resolved.

It's great that it fits what you want and need though, congrats!

 

[MauiPa]

The question of how things work in real life is interesting. I have an M1 mini 16/512 on my desktop and it was nice but it could slow down if you're running a lot of things on it. I have one large application with a Windows executable and it will run on macOS Intel via WINE and on macOS Apple Silicon via WINE and Rosetta 2. Startup uses 300% of the M1 and it takes a fair amount of CPU (under one core) while running. The program runs with ease on my Windows i7 desktop though. Two translations does have a performance and RAM cost.

It's running Big Sur and Big Sur seems to use up a lot of RAM. I bought a 2014 iMac 27 (i7, 16 GB, 500 SSD, 4 GB GPU) for $500 and an iMac 2010 (i7, 8 GB, 1 TB HDD) for $100 in the past month and I like the combination of these two systems better than the mini. I added 16 GB of RAM to both systems ($94 each) and they handle whatever I throw at them. Some things the M1 runs faster but I never swap on the iMacs and responsiveness, while not neck-snapping like the M1 is fine for getting things done.

I am in the process of moving stuff off the M1 mini and then plan to sell it.

I really wanted a model with 32 GB of RAM and the ability to support 3 4k monitors but it was a chance to try out Apple Silicon. I have the 2021 MacBook Pro 16 which I love - the early M1 models were just a stopgap. I suspect many are in the same place looking for more options for the mini and iMac.

The used iMacs were great deals as the 2014 comes with a 5k display which I love. I can see how it's hard to go back after going 5k. But with the iMac, I get two displays, two sets of speakers, videocams, microphones and I don't have cables all over my desk. I would take a 2020 iMac i7 over an M1 iMac - just better performance all around and the ability to add aftermarket (cheap) RAM.

Maybe Microsoft will stop exercising anti-competitive behavior and release widows on ARM, or your vendor would release an apple silicon version. It is not surprising that a demanding windows program, not an optimized Apple silicon program, would have trouble running on emulation, goes without saying. The remarkable thing is that it does run. You should have known about the monitors. But what amazed me is that I can use my laptop monitor, an external 4k monitor and an airplay 4k monitor at the same time. Not 3 external 4Ks, but enough for me

 

[pshufd]

Maybe Microsoft will stop exercising anti-competitive behavior and release widows on ARM, or your vendor would release an apple silicon version. It is not surprising that a demanding windows program, not an optimized Apple silicon program, would have trouble running on emulation, goes without saying. The remarkable thing is that it does run. You should have known about the monitors. But what amazed me is that I can use my laptop monitor, an external 4k monitor and an airplay 4k monitor at the same time. Not 3 external 4Ks, but enough for me

On the mini - I did know but I wanted an immediate solution. The rumors were that an upgrade to the mini would come in the fall so I wanted something to play with to see if my stuff would work on Apple Silicon and then upgrade to something better in the fall. The mini Pro didn't arrive and I don't know when it will other than to say that it will arrive this year. There are rumors that it will arrive this spring but, really, I don't think that anyone knows. Not even Apple.

So the M1 mini was an experiment. I don't strictly need it as I could just hook up the second monitor to my Windows desktop. I would just lose Spaces which I like a lot. The Windows Desktop supports up to 4 4k displays.

I bought the 2021 MacBook Pro in that crazy 15 minute timeframe on launch and just wanted to hit my requirements - 32 GB RAM and 16 inches. I assumed that it would support three external monitors and was pretty disappointed that it didn't. The thing is my 2014 and 2015 said that they only support 2 4k monitors but they actually support 2x4k + a third monitor but it can't be 4k. I found this out with experimentation. That is in addition to the internal display. So Apple, in the past, did support more external displays than in the specs. Just not with these models.

I was using the 2021 MacBook Pro with two external displays but there are memory leak problems which were really annoying. I took it off the desktop cluster because I had to reboot it regularly and it's just used in the house and when I travel. It appears that external displays really exacerbate the memory leak problems. It's much less of a problem used standalone. So I am waiting for bugfixes on Monterey in general. I'm running Big Sur and Mojave on my other Macs (that can go to Monterey) because I still consider Monterey to be unstable.

I really didn't want to return it and then wait for an M1 Max. It appears that you get 1 external with 13, 2 with Pro and 4 with Max. I'm hoping that they do 2 with the M2 Air, 3 with M2 Pro. Some people do like to run their desktop off a MacBook. At the moment, though, I'm enjoying them being separate as I can use the laptop as a laptop and the desktop is stable.

 

[clevins]

If you want a better iMac on pure performance, compare it with the iMac Pro.

I have PCs. But I prefer Macs. But there are limitations on software.

That's why I have a desktop cluster. Currently a custom Windows build, M1 mini, 2014 iMac and 2010 iMac. I don't actually need the mini though.

You talked about software assuming that I wasn't already an expert on it. And now you're changing the subject. There are restrictions. There are issues with Apple Silicon. There is software that won't be ported.

So? None of that is relevant to the thread topic. And speaking of changing the topic, every post in here is all about your incredibly specialized needs. That M1 won't run x86 is both well known and NOT RELEVANT TO THE TOPIC.

 

[clevins]

Hey, I'm OP of this thread and continuing on with my quest here:

I found a local seller selling a secondhand MacBook Air M1 with 16GB RAM + 1TB SSD for $1280 USD. Is this a good deal?

My other option is a MacBook Pro 16" 2019 with i9 2.3GHz + 32GB RAM + 1TB SSD + Radeon 5500M 4GB for $1475 USD.

Which would be the better buy here? Need a powerful system to handle daily motion and 3D design work. For context, I'm currently working on an Early 2013 15" Retina MBP with 16GB RAM and it's terrible. It's why I'm not sure if 16GB RAM is enough to cut it.

Here are my specific use cases:
- I don't need to use Windows or any Windows apps as I'm a designer mostly working on Mac.
- Not going to be playing any games on it. That's what my Xbox is for.
- I will be using an external monitor as well, so being able to connect is important.
- Mainly using apps like Figma, Photoshop / Affinity Designer, Final Cut Pro, After Effects, Blender, Unreal Engine, etc.
- Open to the possibility of reselling and then upgrading to an M1 Max in a few months from now.

Honestly? Look at one of the other half dozen 'what should I buy' threads from the last few weeks.

But a short answer? Get the Air unless you KNOW you need more than 16gig RAM. We can't tell you if you do or not. Obviously, another solution would be to tough it out and see if any of the current Pro models show up on Apple's refurbished store page in a few months or save. up and buy a MBP.

Also, if you do this seriously/professionally, budget for a new machine every 3-4 years. Not every 8.

 

[clevins]

Fair comment, I was a bit grumpy yesterday. 🙂 Still, that M1 MBA is just sitting on a shelf gathering dust for me. 🙁


It has a fan! My dislike of the Air was centered around 3 points, one was a lack of a fan (hot, throttling), and the other is that I need x86 VM capability to run Windows. And until Microsoft allows us to actually purchase a Windows on Arm License, I can't use it for work, and that is a requirement for me. I can see how that doesn't matter to a lot of people, but it does to me. Windows on Arm isn't exactly a speed demon on the M1 either, and it definitely causes a lot of my heat problem, not to mention it doesn't run everything x86.

My Air only has 16G of RAM, and that's really not enough for me either. I tend to run a lot of different things all the time. That's why my Intel Mac Mini with a lot more RAM actually is a better fit for what I want to do.

I had a decently specc'd 14" MBP Max on order for awhile to replace my MBA, but I decided to wait until the WoA situation gets resolved.

It's great that it fits what you want and need though, congrats!

GET. A. WINDOWS. BOX.

Even if MS licenses Windows Arm, that doesnt mean the x86 apps you need will run on it or run well. Seriously, people, if you need Windows going forward, you want to buy a Windows machine for that need. Unless something drastic changes, the days of Windows being a first class citizen on Apple hardware are over.

 

[iBug2]

It's not faster for WINE programs. I have one critical program that was written on frameworks from the 1990s. It runs like a dog on Apple Silicon and the Reddit forum has bitched and complained about it for the past year. There's no indication that they are going to do a native port for Apple Silicon. They don't have a native port for macOS Intel and people have been asking for it since 2006. It will not work when Rosetta 2 goes away.

Ok those cases are there of course. I'm not running any old code, all my daily apps are native M1 already.

 

[bobcomer]

GET. A. WINDOWS. BOX.

I HAVE MULTIPLE WINDOWS BOXES. I WANT TO RUN A MAC.

Even if MS licenses Windows Arm, that doesn't mean the x86 apps you need will run on it or run well.

Actually I've already tested it, and most runs, and the stuff that doesn't run has alternates that do the same thing. The licensing is a hard block issue though, I can't get around that.

Seriously, people, if you need Windows going forward, you want to buy a Windows machine for that need. Unless something drastic changes, the days of Windows being a first class citizen on Apple hardware are over.

And just forget about what I want to run? That's a totally useless suggestion and comment.

If I ever give up on Mac's, it'll be because of all the people that have told me to get a Windows box around here, not because of the M1+ processors. I'm a computer geek, I run all kinds of boxes and OS's, it's what I do as a hobby -- but I do have a job to do too. (IT Manager, you know the one that approves all the computer purchases and such...)

 

[pshufd]

So? None of that is relevant to the thread topic. And speaking of changing the topic, every post in here is all about your incredibly specialized needs. That M1 won't run x86 is both well known and NOT RELEVANT TO THE TOPIC.

Read the title.

 

[DeepIn2U]

I can't do my work on a new $250 computer. But most people spending a grand or more on a new Mac aren't doing my work. I'm unsure what part of my original statement you're trying to disprove.

I wasn't' trying to disprove just suggesting it maybe interesting to try and post about it 😉

 

[Tagbert]

I'm not forgetting about those chips, M1 Pro and Max are exclusively the new MacBook Pros for now. The M1 has been a rocket out of the gate. I'm saying we haven't seen what Apple has in mind for the last of the Macs that have yet to transition. I suspect the Pro and Max will be seen in a Mac mini (high end) and iMac 27-inch. The flex I was referencing was against Alder Lake that is just in desktop form, I can see Apple crushing them pretty easily with their silicone. It is going to get better from here. The fact these chips required Intel to make such huge power suckers in Alder Lake is entertaining, so I can't wait to see what these models are packing.

Based on your needs you are probably at the high end of what the M1 is optimized for but the next jump up to the MBP M1 Pro may be a more expensive jump. Since Apples products are in flux right now, if you need to buy now, I would go with the M1 13” MBP or even the M1 Air depending on you budget. Consider this a short term decision for the next couple of years. By then all of the products will transitioned and moving onto their next revision of the M-series chips. Software will be fully adapted to AS. You will have more experience with the new platform and can make a more informed choice. Getting the M1 will give you a good tool at a reasonable price. In a couple of years, you can trade it in on something that meets your future needs, too.

Definitely don’t waste your money and patience on the Intel laptops, at this point. Unless you like slow, hot, and noisy. 😊

 

[spiderman0616]

Thanks for the explanation! Makes sense that the peak performance from the M1 probably isn't meant to be for a long period of time, considering there's no fan. Good point about the RAM; that's definitely new info to me!

There's a thermal cap so you don't toast your MacBook, but even when you hit it, even for extended time, M1 will most likely keep up with you unless you are legitimately someone who really does need more RAM/CPU/etc. I haven't had it chug on one thing I've thrown at it so far, even the games I've tried on it, and even translating them with Crossover or running through Rosetta 2.

 

[appleArticulate]

Thanks for the explanation! Makes sense that the peak performance from the M1 probably isn't meant to be for a long period of time, considering there's no fan. Good point about the RAM; that's definitely new info to me!

That's not what he said at all.

The M1 is fully capable of peak performance including in a device that doesn't even a have fan! (MacBook Air).

Every other M1 device that is not intending to be the lightest most portable thing available has a fan, and can maintain peak performance indefinitely.

 

[Fomalhaut]

It's obviously wise to future-proof to some extent. For example if you reckon you currently need 256GB for your current apps and data, don't just buy a 256GB model. But I think it's senseless to over-specify your purchase based on assumed future needs you don't yet know. Five years from now whatever you buy will be obsolete in ways you can't yet fathom because of the overall advancement of technology.

Wise words and 100% agree. There is no “future proofing” - just capacity planning for hardware that will superseded in 2-3 years by the latest models. It won’t stop working of course, and the goal is to plan the capacity based on realistic expected requirements for the planned life of the machine. You don’t need the latest and greatest to be effective, but should need to get “enough machine” for the job.

 

[Tyler O'Bannon]

You might need the 13” M1 Pro because it has a fan

 

[clevins]

I HAVE MULTIPLE WINDOWS BOXES. I WANT TO RUN A MAC.

yeah and I want a Maserati. But we don't all get what we want.

If you need to run Windows apps routinely, your best, most reliable method of doing that will be on a Windows machine. If you can run your apps in an Arm version of Windows, it might work out, but if they're x86 apps and never ported to Arm you'll always be running some risk of incompatibility.

 

[bobcomer]

yeah and I want a Maserati.

So make the money and buy one. (If you were serious.) I see no reason to compromise if one is serious.

 

[Madhatter32]

That M1 won't run x86 is both well known and NOT RELEVANT TO THE TOPIC.

One word: Rosetta. The issue here is whether certain software runs well enough and, in some circumstances, whether it actually runs better on an Intel based Mac than an Arm based Mac. With this perspective, an Intel i9/i7 may serve you better than an M1. For example, ATP from Fidelity runs better on the Intel based machines. There may be other examples.

 

[mi7chy]

One word: Rosetta.

No company is going to gamble on emulation for production. Only casual users will tolerate it.