Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Is Motorola KILLING Apple?
- Thread starter MacManiac1224
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
MacAztec
macrumors 68040
MmmmmmmmMMMMmm....last night was home-made meatloaf. And the night before I believe was subking. MMMMMMM!!!
P.S.- I am now the hi-jacker of this thread!
But my friend, its time for bed.
I say good-bye to you all,
See you another day,
Because this site,
Will be viewed in my dreams....
Im gonna make a lil rap...
I went to...MacRumors
Saw the headline, and then went boomers!
Looked around the web,
And saw what I saw,
Then decided to play baseball.
I believe that this site is great,
It is really addicting...especially really late!
Now my friends, its time for bed,
Hopefully tomorrow...I wont be fed.
Fed up with the crap, about the NRA,
And the crap that I heard...on the news today!
Thats all, it kinda sux, but....night all!
rainman::|:|
macrumors 603
Alex you bastard. 🙂 I didn't chime in on the 2nd amendment threads, but i'm an opinionated little prick so I hafta share at some point. I'm fairly liberal on many things (i'm a libertarian tho - don't be calling me a damn dirty democrat 😉 ) but gun control?? come on, i don't give a flying f*ck whether or not the authors of the 2nd had any foresight, the fact is, we do have the right, which brings me to my point: as soon as i'm of age, i'll be purchasing a nice glock to ...hunt with, yes (looks around and laughs) Seriously, I don't see why i shouldn't be allowed to keep a gun in my nightstand... I'd like a license to carry concealed, but they're hard to get i understand... i can't imagine a situtation where i would want to pack, but it'd be nice to know i could.
So in summary, all you gun control nuts can bugger off.
🙂
and if you get the thread started on abortion, Alex, i will never forgive you-- every other topic can be handled very well, especially by the kind and courteous members here, but that one is best left to some other site. no one is going to change anyone's minds so just leave it alone 🙂 i realize you were joking, but still...
hehe
pnw
alex_ant
macrumors 68020
Wow! That was great! That should be the official Macrumors rap. I especially like the rhyming of "Macrumors" with "boomers"... and you could make the official site slogan out of lines 6 & 7! Just put it on a banner or something.
I believe that this site is great,
It is really addicting...especially really late!
Gold!!
So: The right to bear arms. Fundamental and necessary for the preservation of freedom, or an impediment to healthy civilization? Discuss!
I believe that this site is great,
It is really addicting...especially really late!
Gold!!
So: The right to bear arms. Fundamental and necessary for the preservation of freedom, or an impediment to healthy civilization? Discuss!
alex_ant
macrumors 68020
Thanks, Paul. I actually don't care much about the topic of gun control - I just wanted to find a topic that would get people riled up, so I jumped on it when AlphaTech brought it up. So, I'm just curious - how do you feel about countries like Australia and the UK where gun ownership is not legal? Specifically, how would you feel about the topic of gun ownership if you were a citizen of either of those countries? Again, I don't have much of a stance, although if I had to lean one way I'd lean slightly toward pro-gun-control - I'm just wondering what the other "side" thinks.
Alex
rainman::|:|
macrumors 603
Kind of assumed you were just trying to change the subject. I suppose if one never knew of gun ownership, one would not find any reason to desire it. Australia may not have gun ownership, but if I remember right they have some particularly brutal serial killers from time to time, who get by just fine without. The UK is the same, to a lesser extent. There was an experiment in gun control once, in Nevada I believe (forgive the vagueness, it's been a while)... A gated community where everyone owned at least one gun, and to live there you and every member of the family had to take gun safety courses... The results were pretty surprising, less crime than ever. That's not to say guns make things safer, but they do prove to be a deterrant... If i'm a burglar, i wouldn't break into a house/mug someone who had a gun. IMHO, if you want to kill someone, you'll do it no matter what... There are plenty of very deadly object lying around the average house. True criminals rely on guns for many illegal activities (does gun blackmarket count? 😉 ) but again, they would just resort to something else... So to sum up, i think guns get a much worse rap than they deserve, and the real fault lies with people. The saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people" may be cliché, but it's true if you think about it.
Tho I think if you're going to have kids, a gun in the house isn't the best parential decision you can make... But my grandmother and her husband have a handgun collection, in full working order that they practice with often... Lots of kids staying/visiting there at one time or another, and no kid has ever bothered a gun. It's a blend of keeping them out of access, and teaching respect for them.
I'm not trying to start up the 2nd amendment thread again, because it's been done, but then i've not been talking about the 2nd 🙂 just the "philosophy" of guns and criminals...
pnw
alex_ant
macrumors 68020
Hasn't the U.S. seen many, many more very brutal serial killers than either of those countries, though? Not just in absolute terms, because obviously the U.S. is a lot bigger, but even per capita.
I agree that I wouldn't want to break into a gun-owning house if I were a burglar, but is that to say it would be a good idea if all families owned a gun in order to deter against crime? This seems to me to be a bit similar to a nuclear arms race, where country A (the criminal) acquires the bomb (the gun), and country B (the innocent bystander) feels a need to protect itself against this bomb because it doesn't want to get blown up, so it acquires the bomb also. So country A acquires more bombs, and country B sees this and acquires even more bombs than country A, to the point where both countries have more bombs than they could ever possibly need to blow each other up. In other words, instead of everyone owning a gun, wouldn't it be better if nobody did?
I agree that if someone really wants to kill another person they'll find a way, but certainly guns make it easier. You can't kill vast quantities of people very rapidly with knives, for instance, unless you're a ninja or something.
I guess gun control sounds to me like taking prescription medication for depression. You can take Prozac and it may alleviate your symptoms, but the underlying cause(s) of those symptoms will still be there. So I guess it's just a question of whether or not we ought to tackle the cause of gun violence or just tackle the gun violence itself (by removing people's access to guns, for example). I would say that #1 would be ideal, but #2 would be easier. (Although that doesn't mean I would choose #2.)
I agree. But along the same lines, the saying "hydrogen bombs don't kill people, people kill people" is also true. Yet, what else are you gonna use a hydrogen bomb for? 🙂
The reason I asked what you thought about Australia and the UK was because it seemed to me that the US would be so much better off if guns were simply not a part of its culture, as is the case in the UK. In that case, nobody, especially criminals, would feel any need to have anything to do with guns, and therefore nobody would feel the need to own guns in order to protect themselves from criminals. I've heard that in the UK, not even police officers carry guns! Because they don't have to. That's just awesome, in my opinion. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like it's possible to consciously move in that direction. 🙁 (But this is all just my opinion, of course.)
Alex
rainman::|:|
macrumors 603
whew, i was afraid i'd killed a good thread by getting all serious and stuff. Ahem <mind trick="jedi">*waves hand* you WILL give me a powerbook</mind trick> hehe sorry couldnt resist...
Hmm, would like to look into this further... I'll bet the per-capita is very close if Australia isn't higher... i have no idea the population of Australia... this sounds like a job for www.crimelibrary.com... the US's serial killers seem more plentiful, because we as Americans hear about them in great detail when they happen... Not talking spree or mass-killings, i'll get to that in a moment...
This is a hard one to answer... In pure ideology, yes a gun-free society would be better... It's interesting to look at the gun-free countries, from an American point of view, since guns are so much a part of our society... The hunting aspect is always there, and rifles are just as good for blowing a hole in someone as a semi-automatic handgun... It's all in the attitude of the society. As you say below, for better or for worse, guns are here to stay...
I think a look at Japan would be appropriate... They have always been a rather peaceful society, and they saw their first serial killer not too long ago. But remember the gas attacks on the subway... There's always a way. True guns put the ability to kill more, faster, and are more readily accessible... that's certainly a flaw in the gun-friendly society. I think the fact that we have people wanting to do this type of thing is the real problem... Mental illness aside, we kind of breed a violent rhetoric into people. That's another discussion tho!
Gotta say, just on a technicality, the type of depression that Prozac works on is indeed cured by the prozac - but not indefinitely. Chemical depression is when the seratonin levels of the brain fluctuate in ways they weren't supposed to. As long as one stays on an SSRI antidepressant, the cause itself is actually removed. Now i'm just nitpicking, but I understand what you're saying... I agree that the easiest course of action is not the best in this case. Unfortunately to get to the root of what makes people violent, we have to look at the fundamental way our society is shaped, and no one wants to do that. I'm not sure if it's even possible to change, anymore. Violence breeds violence, and it's a cycle that's broken less often than a new one is started--
Ever read The Utopia? 😉 I would certainly like to see more countries with less of a violence problem. Kind of makes you wonder why some countries are non-gun and some are pro-gun... Perhaps it's a question of where each country was, in their respective evolutions, when the gun was invented. It would make sense for most countries except Australia, but they don't let people take guns to prison, do they? 😉 gotta rile up the Aussies.
Now that England is decriminalizing pot, I think we could learn a lot from them... hehe...
must say, Alex, you make some good points 🙂
pnw
Hmm, would like to look into this further... I'll bet the per-capita is very close if Australia isn't higher... i have no idea the population of Australia... this sounds like a job for www.crimelibrary.com... the US's serial killers seem more plentiful, because we as Americans hear about them in great detail when they happen... Not talking spree or mass-killings, i'll get to that in a moment...
This is a hard one to answer... In pure ideology, yes a gun-free society would be better... It's interesting to look at the gun-free countries, from an American point of view, since guns are so much a part of our society... The hunting aspect is always there, and rifles are just as good for blowing a hole in someone as a semi-automatic handgun... It's all in the attitude of the society. As you say below, for better or for worse, guns are here to stay...
I think a look at Japan would be appropriate... They have always been a rather peaceful society, and they saw their first serial killer not too long ago. But remember the gas attacks on the subway... There's always a way. True guns put the ability to kill more, faster, and are more readily accessible... that's certainly a flaw in the gun-friendly society. I think the fact that we have people wanting to do this type of thing is the real problem... Mental illness aside, we kind of breed a violent rhetoric into people. That's another discussion tho!
Gotta say, just on a technicality, the type of depression that Prozac works on is indeed cured by the prozac - but not indefinitely. Chemical depression is when the seratonin levels of the brain fluctuate in ways they weren't supposed to. As long as one stays on an SSRI antidepressant, the cause itself is actually removed. Now i'm just nitpicking, but I understand what you're saying... I agree that the easiest course of action is not the best in this case. Unfortunately to get to the root of what makes people violent, we have to look at the fundamental way our society is shaped, and no one wants to do that. I'm not sure if it's even possible to change, anymore. Violence breeds violence, and it's a cycle that's broken less often than a new one is started--
Ever read The Utopia? 😉 I would certainly like to see more countries with less of a violence problem. Kind of makes you wonder why some countries are non-gun and some are pro-gun... Perhaps it's a question of where each country was, in their respective evolutions, when the gun was invented. It would make sense for most countries except Australia, but they don't let people take guns to prison, do they? 😉 gotta rile up the Aussies.
Now that England is decriminalizing pot, I think we could learn a lot from them... hehe...
must say, Alex, you make some good points 🙂
pnw
Geert
macrumors 6502a
I hear yeh alex_ant😀
You are all right: stories of Apple dying come by the bunch, but they pass just as quickly as they came😛
they have been telling that Apple was dying since the late 80ies (or even earlier) but we're still here, banging away on our pro-keyboard, real pissed off by anyone who says one negative about Apple. hehehe
I like that in you guys!
That is why I love putting posts here😉
man a lot of u guys are real dosers, since wen wasnt an opinion valid?! ur sounding more like microsoft every day!! think of it from a slightly different perspective and blah blah blah blah seems to make sence.
Gun toting
If you've got to carry a gun to keep your fragile seat at number one, this is a bullet you can't outrun.
If you've got to carry a gun to keep your fragile seat at number one, this is a bullet you can't outrun.
alex_ant
macrumors 68020
I'll agree with that. I was just guessing about Australia's per capita serial killings being lower, because whenever I envision Australians I think of them living in peace and harmony along with their countless pet kangaroos and koalas. (Thank you, Paul Hogan, for being part of such a fine geographical documentary as "Crocodile Dundee.") 🙂
Well, you make some good points too, so good in fact that I really don't have anything else to say. 🙂 I just wanted to get a feel for the opinion of the "other side" on this, because so often the discussion never gets more articulate than "Guns good!" "No, guns bad!" and thus it's difficult to tell where the respective sides are coming from.
Although, I didn't know the UK was legalizing marijuana. I'm going to have to get over there some day. 🙂
Cheers,
Alex
rainman::|:|
macrumors 603
I think so, could someone from the UK verify? i heard tho there's nothing official, there's a amsterdam-style cafe operating, and tho it got busted on it's first day, since then the cops are just watching to see how well it works. You can get two different strains, and a hash, i think... but we're getting a little technical on taboo subject 😉
Very interesting conversation, thank you Alex 🙂
pnw
jefhatfield
Retired
there should be an amendment to own macs...sometimes looking around i think it must be illegal
there is more heroin around these parts than macs...let's change that
we just need to get past the tin horn man named bill gates...that is who is killing apple, not motorola
but i would like to see a high end mac with an ibm processor, too
there is more heroin around these parts than macs...let's change that
we just need to get past the tin horn man named bill gates...that is who is killing apple, not motorola
but i would like to see a high end mac with an ibm processor, too
Listen, folks. I don't want to get sucked into this, but all this talk of outlawing guns is really disturbing. Yeah, so some crazy people want to go around killing each other. FINE! Natural selection the way I see it. Let the crackheads and ignorant people kill themsilves, and each other. FINE WITH ME.
But the whole reason that we have guns, and the entire reason for the 2nd is that the people should have the ability, and the right, to rise up and overthrow the government should it turn into a totalitarian state, or dictatorship, or fail to reflect the will of the people. It's a way to keep power in the hands of the common man.
Very disturbing that some of us have been lulled into a utopia. Very disturbing. As it is, we all live in a society where corporations have become more powerful than our govenment. Where our desires and wishes are spoon-fed to us through a series of television commercials and boy bands. And where art and free speach and the right to openly criticise is stifled by high-dollar suits, corporate interest lobying, and copyrights. They've even found a way to copyright parts of the human genome. THAT's what's sick and disturbing. Not a bunch of idiots running around killing other idiots.
But the whole reason that we have guns, and the entire reason for the 2nd is that the people should have the ability, and the right, to rise up and overthrow the government should it turn into a totalitarian state, or dictatorship, or fail to reflect the will of the people. It's a way to keep power in the hands of the common man.
Very disturbing that some of us have been lulled into a utopia. Very disturbing. As it is, we all live in a society where corporations have become more powerful than our govenment. Where our desires and wishes are spoon-fed to us through a series of television commercials and boy bands. And where art and free speach and the right to openly criticise is stifled by high-dollar suits, corporate interest lobying, and copyrights. They've even found a way to copyright parts of the human genome. THAT's what's sick and disturbing. Not a bunch of idiots running around killing other idiots.
LethalWolfe
macrumors G3
Yes, before guns were invented humans were much more civilized and there was no such thing as murder or crime. 🙄 😛
People are the problem, not guns (or knives, or baseball bats, or axes, or pillows, or poisons, or big sticks, etc.,) . Mass genocide was carried out in Rwanda with machetties<sp?> and farm tools.
The kids who shot up Columbine High School had rigged 2 propane tanks (place in the cafeteria I think) to explode (thankfully they didn't go off). I'm pretty sure those two tanks exploding would have killed more people/done more damage than the shooters did.
And making more gun control laws is pointless because criminals don't obey laws. We should spend $$$ enforcing our current laws not making more. The only regulation I'd like to see passed is all gun buyers should take/pass a basic gun safety course.
IMO, why people kill people should be of bigger concern then what was used to do the killing.
Lethal
People are the problem, not guns (or knives, or baseball bats, or axes, or pillows, or poisons, or big sticks, etc.,) . Mass genocide was carried out in Rwanda with machetties<sp?> and farm tools.
The kids who shot up Columbine High School had rigged 2 propane tanks (place in the cafeteria I think) to explode (thankfully they didn't go off). I'm pretty sure those two tanks exploding would have killed more people/done more damage than the shooters did.
And making more gun control laws is pointless because criminals don't obey laws. We should spend $$$ enforcing our current laws not making more. The only regulation I'd like to see passed is all gun buyers should take/pass a basic gun safety course.
IMO, why people kill people should be of bigger concern then what was used to do the killing.
Lethal
AlphaTech
macrumors 601
Already in place in MA. I believe that you need that as well in FL to get a license to carry firearms. In BOTH states, the dealers are required to run background checks before you can purchase pistols. That is the dealerships that are legit that is.
There will always be ways around the checks in the system. If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.
alex_ant
macrumors 68020
Wow. Kind of an extreme viewpoint, isn't it? I'm a bit disturbed by this. What if one of those crazy people were one of your friends, or one of your siblings? Would you still feel the same way?
Yes, we would raise our Smith & Wessons to the heavens and give those F16s and B22 bombers something to really be scared of. If you want to put the ability to overthrow the government back in the hands of the citizens, you'd better equip every household with grenade launchers, tanks, and SAMs, because that's about what it would take to stop the combined forces of the US Military. A couple 9mm pistols in your nightstand isn't gonna cut it.
You might want to define that. For instance, it's arguable that G.W. Bush was not actually elected President. Now, I'm not saying he's not a legitimate president, but just assume for a moment that I'm an Al Gore supporter (I'm not, actually) and I think he's not. And I have some very strong arguments as to Bush's illegitimacy. Does that give me the right to overthrow the government, due to its ceasing to reflect the will of the people?
Yes, that is disturbing, but I don't see how it's relevant to the topic of gun control.
Alex
alex_ant
macrumors 68020
I'm picking up on some sarcasm here. Before guns were invented, there was murder or crime, of course, but guns have been an enabling factor in dramatically widening their scale.
Aren't both guns AND people the problem, though? Guns can do more damage per person than most other weapons, excepting nuclear, chemical, and biological ones. The Rwandan mass genocide you speak of involved many people. Think of how much additional killing they could have done if they had had machine guns. I'm not saying if guns were removed from society somehow that all killing would stop - I'm saying it would lessen.
Yet, however much damage the propane tanks would have done (let's assume a lot), the shooters would have tacked on even more killings.
How does that differ from "making murder laws is pointless because murderers don't obey laws?" Obviously gun control laws aren't gonna solve everything. It would take a lot of work to enact them, and it would probably be impossible to get *all* guns off the streets. But it would be possible to get a great majority of them confiscated and destroyed within several years.
Yet it's so much easier to put energy towards the cause of protecting gun rights than to establish reasons for and ways to prevent homicidal tendencies. The NRA, for example, doesn't really seem to genuinely care whether or not people kill each other, and therefore can't be bothered to conduct research into the social and psychological factors that lead to homicidal tendencies in an effort to preclude such tendencies. What I'm saying is, "if guns don't kill people, and people kill people, then perhaps it would be a good idea to get rid of guns until we can do away with the underlying behavior that would cause people to use guns in a malicious manner, after which time it would be safe to legalize gun ownership again." Because legalized gun ownership is an ideology that many people unwillingly die for every day.
Alex
LethalWolfe
macrumors G3
It differs 'cause murder isn't protected by the Constitution. 😉 Comparing murder to gun control laws is like comparing apples and oranges. You can legally buy/own a gun in the US, you cannot legally murder someone (killing someone in self-defense would be considered justifiable homicide not murder 😉). Placing more and more restrictions on legally buying a gun hinders a lawful person much more than it hinders a criminal.
We can't keep drugs or illegal immegrants from getting into the country, what makes you think we can stop guns at the border? Not to sound cliched, but assuming all legal guns are taken and destroyed who is going to be left armed? And comparing the US to the UK just isn't realistic. Not only from a cultural point of view, but from a logistical one. The UK is a small (compared to the US) island country that naturally has difficult borders to sneak across. The US, on the other hand, is a big country w/thousands of miles of pretty porous border.
In a perfect world we wouldn't need guns, locks, or M$ and communism would work. But this is a real world, not a perfect one, so idealogical solutions (like taking away all the firearms of private US citizens) are never gonna happen.
alex_ant, you've done a really good job of spoutin' off 'bout why guns are bad (and keeping this topic waaayyy OT 😉) but I've yet to see one feasable solution from you yet. Personnally, I think education and better enforcement of current laws is a good place to start...
Lethal