Is opposition to the existance of the Edition Watch class warfare?

[chris975d]

You still have this completely wrong.

What computer company makes the nicest, best engineered and put together computers with the best materials?

What company makes the best, nicest phone with the best construction?

What company makes the most beautiful laptops?

You don't know what you're talking about. If Apple is 'honda' (a ridiculous comparison to make in any context) then who is the BMW, Mercedes and Ferrari of the computing world? I'm waiting.

----------

In this context, there is no Ferrari of computing. Apple is essentially like Mercedes. They make cars, like everyone else does. Just nicer. Better construction. Better materials. Considered design.

----------

In this context, there is no Ferrari of computing. Apple is essentially like Mercedes. They make cars, like everyone else does. Just nicer. Better construction. Better materials. Considered design.

Glad I "don't know what I'm talking about". But haven't HP made all aluminum laptops before? I've owned HTC One phones that were on the same build level of the iPhone.

To the average person, I guess these things can equate to "luxury". It's all about perception and perspective. Doesn't mean that someone with lots of money views it the same way as you do.

And to most people, "luxury" goods aren't mass produced. They are usually made in much smaller numbers, which adds to their exclusivity. Apple mass produces the hell out of what they sell. It's the same thing in the watch world. And whereas the average person views Rolex as "luxury", in the watch world, they are barely "luxury". They are mass produced (about 1 million a year) as well. Nothing like a hand finished Patek, as much as I hate to say that (Rolex is my favorite brand). So again...perception.

To the last bolded item in your quote...we aren't talking about computing. We are talking about watches. There are plenty of "Ferraris" in the watch world. This is now the playground Apple is attempting to play in.

 

[TallManNY]

I think the really interesting things is that the SS with link is $1,000. Everyone is well aware that there are gold items that they can't afford. No big deal there. The big deal is that the SS with Link band is actually the "basic" watch for a man. It is the watch that goes with any outfit or in any setting. You can wear it working out, not worry about splashing water on it or getting it sweaty. But you can also wear it with a tuxedo and it will be as fine and appropriate as any smart watch.

There are lots of options, but the SS with Link is the best one, in my opinion, for a man. But for an ancillary notification machine it is priced too high for it to be a comfortable buy for the U.S. middle class. Even a single guy making $100,000 a year might have to give some serious thought to buying that version. This is different than when it comes down to a phone that we will use all the time or a laptop that we expect to get five years out of. Those are all affordable to basically the middle class. And in fact they are generally smart buys based on the resale value and the durability.

But the SS watch is at a higher price point. It is basically a quasi-luxury item.

 

[bunnicula]

I think there's some confusion between "luxury goods" and "luxury purchases" going on.


A purchase might be a "luxury" to someone, yet not a purchase of "luxury goods."

For some people, buying an iPhone is a "luxury," but to most people here, the iPhone is not considered "luxury goods."

But, to others? It's a luxury. Period. They don't need it and it costs more than they're willing/able to spend.

I don't think the Edition is any different. It's a LUXURY to many people and whether or not you want to define them as "luxury goods" is completely irrelevant.

 

[michael1019]

Glad I "don't know what I'm talking about". But haven't HP made all aluminum laptops before? I've owned HTC One phones that were on the same build level of the iPhone.

To the average person, I guess these things can equate to "luxury". It's all about perception and perspective. Doesn't mean that someone with lots of money views it the same way as you do.

And to most people, "luxury" goods aren't mass produced. They are usually made in much smaller numbers, which adds to their exclusivity. Apple mass produces the hell out of what they sell. It's the same thing in the watch world. And whereas the average person views Rolex as "luxury", in the watch world, they are barely "luxury". They are mass produced (about 1 million a year) as well. Nothing like a hand finished Patek, as much as I hate to say that (Rolex is my favorite brand). So again...perception.

To the last bolded item in your quote...we aren't talking about computing. We are talking about watches. There are plenty of "Ferraris" in the watch world. This is now the playground Apple is attempting to play in.

You're still wrong. We're not just talking watches. We're talking about brands. Apple makes high end products. No other company competes with Apple above their price point in terms of quality and craftsmanship.

I'm still waiting for you to describe how exactly apple is like Honda. That makes zero sense. And even I'd we're just talking watches, and to be clear - we aren't, there is a ton of room at the top end. A ton. Anyone can compete. Just make something nice. That's all it takes.

 

[Brian Y]

It's the pathetic game playing and one upmanship I feel so sad about.

The poor people here who need to buy things to try and impress others.
God that is so sad that you feel so insecure about yourself as a human being that you need to buy items in an attempt to prove your worth to others.

I don't care if you are dressed in rags or draped in gold.
In fact if you are in rag you are probably a far nicer person to know.

Okay, we get it. You're anti-apple-watch. You don't seem to listen to any other argument, and you've ignored several posts in several threads when you get proved wrong.

 

[chris975d]

You're still wrong. We're not just talking watches. We're talking about brands. Apple makes high end products. No other company competes with Apple above their price point in terms of quality and craftsmanship.



I'm still waiting for you to describe how exactly apple is like Honda. That makes zero sense. And even I'd we're just talking watches, and to be clear - we aren't, there is a ton of room at the top end. A ton. Anyone can compete. Just make something nice. That's all it takes.

Apple is like Honda in that both offer good value for the money, aren't terribly overpriced, and are damn near everywhere (iPhones wouldn't be everywhere if they were "luxury priced"). Kids have iPhones, every college aged student has an Apple laptop. That's hardly a luxury priced good. No matter how you want to attempt to spin it, nothing in Apple's regular lineup is luxury priced to anyone making a decent living. Hell, sign up for the Apple/Barclay credit card and you can 0% interest finance them all.

 

[Rogifan]

I'm not necessarily in opposition of it, as I do believe anyone should be allowed to sell whatever they want at any price they choose to. After all, the market will dictate if there are any actual buyers. I just personally think it's not the most well thought out decision by Apple. That's coming from a buyer/collector/admirer of luxury watches ($8-10k and up). I'm not sure Apple has the right idea of how you actually get to the point you can command a $10K price for a watch.

But thats a different argument. Saying in effect "Apple doesnt know what it's getting into" is completely different than "Apple is only for the 1% now".

 

[Piggie]

Okay, we get it. You're anti-apple-watch. You don't seem to listen to any other argument, and you've ignored several posts in several threads when you get proved wrong.

There is no "proved wrong" there is just opinions.

Apple produces often technically inferior products which some like.
Liking does not make better.

 

[chris975d]

But thats a different argument. Saying in effect "Apple doesnt know what it's getting into" is completely different than "Apple is only for the 1% now".

But don't you think they need to understand WHY the MAJORITY of that 1% buy expensive watches? Sure, there ARE the people (mostly outside the Western world) that buy gold things just 'cause they are gold, but that's not why the vast majority of people buying expensive watches buy them. Not even close. So if you're going to attempt to compete in that market, Apple might want to know why the buyers have the buying habits they do.

 

[michael1019]

Apple is like Honda in that both offer good value for the money, aren't terribly overpriced, and are damn near everywhere (iPhones wouldn't be everywhere if they were "luxury priced"). Kids have iPhones, every college aged student has an Apple laptop. That's hardly a luxury priced good. No matter how you want to attempt to spin it, nothing in Apple's regular lineup is luxury priced to anyone making a decent living. Hell, sign up for the Apple/Barclay credit card and you can 0% interest finance them all.

You're still missing the point.

Apple is nothing like Honda. Your argument makes no sense. I asked you if Apple is like Honda, who is the Mercedes in the computing world? Apple makes the best stuff. Mercedes and BMW sell a ******** of cars. It doesn't make them any less desirable. In southern California everyone has a 911. It makes them no less cool or no less fun. Apple just makes the best stuff.

Honda sells cars that are like appliances. Driving a Honda is like driving a toaster. It's boring as hell. It says to the world - I don't care anymore. I only want to get from A to B and with no style. A Mercedes isn't necessary. It's just nicer, more comfortable and has bucket loads of style compared to a Honda. And that's OK. But apple is about style and design. So there's no comparison. In the business that Apple is in, it has no competition above them. There's no one making nicer or prettier stuff. There's the Virtu phone and the tag heuer phone, but no one takes them all that seriously.

 

[Rogifan]

But don't you think they need to understand WHY the MAJORITY of that 1% buy expensive watches? Sure, there ARE the people (mostly outside the Western world) that buy gold things just 'cause they are gold, but that's not why the vast majority of people buying expensive watches buy them. Not even close. So if you're going to attempt to compete in that market, Apple might want to know why the buyers have the buying habits they do.

My focus isn't on the 1%. I honestly couldn't care less about them other than I don't support class warfare. And if Apple wants to try and sell something to them then more power to 'em. It might as will be Apple getting that money if they can rather than some third-party modder.

 

[farmkittie]

You hit the nail on the head. I think some people resent Apple selling a watch that they cannot afford.

I'm not a 17k watch person, so I "cannot afford" one in the sense that it would be an illogical purchase for me to make. Do I have the funds to buy one? Hell yes. I do.

Maybe that's why I don't really care about how much they're selling these watches for in the first place. They have a product (the Watch in SS) that I really like and it's at a price that I AM willing to pay for a first gen Apple smart watch.

So, I am satisfied. They could be selling a 100k Limited Edition or some such and I wouldn't care. I'd just be interested in the marketing and how well it sold, if at all.

It's interesting.

At first I was disappointed that I couldn't get the gold/midnight blue classic buckle at a price point I can live with but I realize that the stainless steel midnight leather band is just about as appealing. I realize too that Apple couldn't sell a gold-colored watch at a much lower price because then people wouldn't be able to tell whether someone had a $17K watch vs. a 1K watch.

If I did spend 15-17K on a watch I'd always think of what else I could buy for that amount and cringe. I'm going to be putting in a beautiful cedar fence with brick posts to enclose my back and side yards and it's in that price range. Which would I rather have? No contest. Fence.

Even if I spent 15-17K on something from Apple, I'd wait of the next version of Mac Pro. Or buy the next version of MacBook Pro fully loaded, a SS Apple Watch, a new gold MacBook 12", etc.

 

[chris975d]

Is opposition to the existance of the Edition Watch class warfare?

You're still missing the point.



Apple is nothing like Honda. Your argument makes no sense. I asked you if Apple is like Honda, who is the Mercedes in the computing world? Apple makes the best stuff. Mercedes and BMW sell a ******** of cars. It doesn't make them any less desirable. In southern California everyone has a 911. It makes them no less cool or no less fun. Apple just makes the best stuff.



Honda sells cars that are like appliances. Driving a Honda is like driving a toaster. It's boring as hell. It says to the world - I don't care anymore. I only want to get from A to B and with no style. A Mercedes isn't necessary. It's just nicer, more comfortable and has bucket loads of style compared to a Honda. And that's OK. But apple is about style and design. So there's no comparison. In the business that Apple is in, it has no competition above them. There's no one making nicer or prettier stuff. There's the Virtu phone and the tag heuer phone, but no one takes them all that seriously.

There also doesn't HAVE to be a Mercedes of the computing world.

Let me ask you this...can the average person afford an iPhone? Yes, of course they can. Can the average person afford a Honda? Yes. Are both dependable, reliable? Yes.

Can the average person (nationwide) afford a Mercedes? Nope. That's why they are an aspirational vehicle to own. That's their selling point.

Apple lost a lot of that "prestige" and "exclusivity" when they made it a point several years ago (about the time the iPhone took off) to start pricing more aggressively. The laptops have come down in price for the most part. iPhone is no expensive than any other top of the line smartphone. You're missing that. Mercedes, BMW and Porsche (your examples) ARE priced above what the average person can afford.

But, think however your little heart desires. That's the beauty of the world we live in. You consider iPhones that are in WALMART "luxury", and I'll consider my watches, and the Pateks above them, along with Ferraris, luxury.

I'll add that I also have to understand that there are people out there, including some of my friends, that view my Rolexes as "entry level". It's all about perspective.

 

[bunnicula]

At first I was disappointed that I couldn't get the gold/midnight blue classic buckle at a price point I can live with but I realize that the stainless steel midnight leather band is just about as appealing. I realize too that Apple couldn't sell a gold-colored watch at a much lower price because then people wouldn't be able to tell whether someone had a $17K watch vs. a 1K watch.

If I did spend 15-17K on a watch I'd always think of what else I could buy for that amount and cringe. I'm going to be putting in a beautiful cedar fence with brick posts to enclose my back and side yards and it's in that price range. Which would I rather have? No contest. Fence.

Even if I spent 15-17K on something from Apple, I'd wait of the next version of Mac Pro. Or buy the next version of MacBook Pro fully loaded, a SS Apple Watch, a new gold MacBook 12", etc.

I remember when they first unveiled the yellow and rose gold watches. My daughter (she's 14) was home sick that day and she got to watch the Keynote with me. We both loved the rose gold, but I told her I felt sure it would be really expensive.

And... it is.

Do I love it 17k? No way. LOL.

I like the SS with a Modern Buckle and it's a very attractive watch.

So, yeah... it would be nice if they made the bands for SS (the red, the midnight in classic buckle, the pink shade they're making for the rose gold watch... I prefer it to the other pink band)... but, at the end of the day? I figure they'll wind up making those bands eventually anyway.

 

[michael1019]

There also doesn't HAVE to be a Mercedes of the computing world.

Let me ask you this...can the average person afford an iPhone? Yes, of course they can. Can the average person afford a Honda? Yes. Are both dependable, reliable? Yes.

Can the average person (nationwide) afford a Mercedes? Nope. That's why they are an aspirational vehicle to own. That's their selling point.

Apple lost a lot of that "prestige" and "exclusivity" when they made it a point several years ago (about the time the iPhone took off) to start pricing more aggressively. The laptops have come down in price for the most part. iPhone is no expensive than any other top of the line smartphone. You're missing that. Mercedes, BMW and Porsche (your examples) ARE priced above what the average person can afford.

But, think however your little heart desires. That's the beauty of the world we live in. You consider iPhones that are in WALMART "luxury", and I'll consider my watches, and the Pateks above them, along with Ferraris, luxury.

I'll add that I also have to understand that there are people out there, including some of my friends, that view my Rolexes as "entry level". It's all about perspective.

You're an idiot. And kind of condescending and apparently not all that bright. An iPhone isn't a luxury item and that isn't my argument at all. You're missing the point.

 

[bunnicula]

There also doesn't HAVE to be a Mercedes of the computing world.

Let me ask you this...can the average person afford an iPhone? Yes, of course they can. Can the average person afford a Honda? Yes. Are both dependable, reliable? Yes.

Can the average person (nationwide) afford a Mercedes? Nope. That's why they are an aspirational vehicle to own. That's their selling point.

Apple lost a lot of that "prestige" and "exclusivity" when they made it a point several years ago (about the time the iPhone took off) to start pricing more aggressively. The laptops have come down in price for the most part. iPhone is no expensive than any other top of the line smartphone. You're missing that. Mercedes, BMW and Porsche (your examples) ARE priced above what the average person can afford.

But, think however your little heart desires. That's the beauty of the world we live in. You consider iPhones that are in WALMART "luxury", and I'll consider my watches, and the Pateks above them, along with Ferraris, luxury.

We have to consider the fact that there are MANY people who could not afford to buy the iPhone for full price. If subsidies didn't exist in the cell phone and tablet world, you'd see way more inexpensive smart phones and tablets being sold. Apple still make some of the most expensive computing devices in the world.

They just seem less "exclusive" because so many people have them.

But, it's all relative. If you're in NorCal, even a Tesla doesn't seem so exclusive because you can throw a rock and hit one. But, in Paducah, Kentucky, it might seem like the one guy who owns a Tesla must be RICH!

It's all a matter of perspective. I have redneck relatives who have very little style and not remotely any sort of discriminating taste who wear Rolex because they may not be fashionistas, but they are aware enough of marketing to know that Rolex is fancy.



They would probably never buy a Patek, but it's not because it's not a nice watch... and it's not because they cannot afford it. It's because everyone they deal with regularly knows a Rolex is fancy. They dunno wtf a Patek Philippe is.

Point being... to some people? Apple products off subsidy aren't any more reasonable a purchase than a Mercedes. It's all a matter of perspective.

I suspect that many who post here and aren't high school or college students could afford at LEAST an entry-level Mercedes. Does that make it NOT a luxury car?

 

[chris975d]

You're an idiot. And kind of condescending and apparently not all that bright. An iPhone isn't a luxury item and that isn't my argument at all. You're missing the point.

I can't miss a point that you fail to make. Apple is not considered luxury anymore. They lost that prestige, and that focus, when they decided to chase market share and sell more units. Luxury goods typically have a sense of exclusivity.. Apple products are everywhere. They are accessible and affordable to most (western world). There are several posters in this same thread that are saying the same thing. You consider them idiots too? Go to most any luxury goods forum (another watch forum, for example) and call all the people mocking Apple idiots too. It's cute. Your discussion skills have devolved into name calling.

----------

We have to consider the fact that there are MANY people who could not afford to buy the iPhone for full price. If subsidies didn't exist in the cell phone and tablet world, you'd see way more inexpensive smart phones and tablets being sold. Apple still make some of the most expensive computing devices in the world.

They just seem less "exclusive" because so many people have them.

But, it's all relative. If you're in NorCal, even a Tesla doesn't seem so exclusive because you can throw a rock and hit one. But, in Paducah, Kentucky, it might seem like the one guy who owns a Tesla must be RICH!

It's all a matter of perspective. I have redneck relatives who have very little style and not remotely any sort of discriminating taste who wear Rolex because they may not be fashionistas, but they are aware enough of marketing to know that Rolex is fancy.



They would probably never buy a Patek, but it's not because it's not a nice watch... and it's not because they cannot afford it. It's because everyone they deal with regularly knows a Rolex is fancy. They dunno wtf a Patek Philippe is.

Point being... to some people? Apple products off subsidy aren't any more reasonable a purchase than a Mercedes. It's all a matter of perspective.

I suspect that many who post here and aren't high school or college students could afford at LEAST an entry-level Mercedes. Does that make it NOT a luxury car?

You yourself used the word (which I've agreed with) "perspective". That's what all of this is. I know of very few people who think (anymore) of Apple as being "luxury". They used to have that prestige, when there was some rarity (and they cost A LOT more), but they aren't that anymore. They are a very good quality, above average consumer good. That's my take on them. Again, it's perspective. But back to MY point is that to anyone WITH MONEY, they are not considered luxury.

 

[Tycho24]

It's the pathetic game playing and one upmanship I feel so sad about.

The poor people here who need to buy things to try and impress others.
God that is so sad that you feel so insecure about yourself as a human being that you need to buy items in an attempt to prove your worth to others.

I don't care if you are dressed in rags or draped in gold.
In fact if you are in rag you are probably a far nicer person to know.

I understand your sentiment...
However, I feel like you're jumping to a lot of conclusions.
I have yet to read a single comment that leads me to believe that anybody here is so "poor" that they can only afford the $350 model, yet they are getting the Edition "just to impress people".
You're projecting.

 

[bunnicula]

You yourself used the word (which I've agreed with) "perspective". That's what all of this is. I know of very few people who think (anymore) of Apple as being "luxury". They used to have that prestige, when there was some rarity (and they cost A LOT more), but they aren't that anymore. They are a very good quality, above average consumer good. That's my take on them. Again, it's perspective. But back to MY point is that to anyone WITH MONEY, they are not considered luxury.

Well, I do agree that Apple isn't (to me) a "luxury" brand. But, I do think that owning Apple products is to some people a "luxury."

I think you and I agree on that much.

 

[chris975d]

Well, I do agree that Apple isn't (to me) a "luxury" brand. But, I do think that owning Apple products is to some people a "luxury."

I think you and I agree on that much.

Lol. At least we are getting somewhere. Thanks for keeping the discussion civil. I have no issues with anyone who can do that.

Again, "luxury", "expensive", "nice" are all subjective. And we (here on this forum, and the watch forums I'm on) are in a very good place overall in terms of "luxuries". We are debating whether a $1000 phone is luxury, or a $17K watch. While how many people in this world are wishing for the "luxury" of clean drinking water. Again...perspective dictates "luxury".

 

[kdarling]

I'm not talking about Apple, I'm talking about those that are personally uncomfortable/offended Apple would sell a $10K watch.

I agree. I think it reflects poorly on the people that have a problem with it.

Seems a few people have already forgotten that it was recently revealed that SOME APPLE INSIDERS ALSO OPPOSED THE GOLD VERSION.

To get his $10,000 Apple Watch, Ive had to fight through the objections of some at Apple who worried about creating divides between regular Apple customers and insanely wealthy Apple customers. Although Apple has always catered to the high-end computing market, its products have always been seen as attainable for most consumers on some level. A $10,000 Apple Watch, however, would create a distinct “upper crust” of Apple clientele that some in the company weren’t comfortable with.

Former Apple SVP of technologies Bob Mansfield told The New Yorker that Ive faced “a lot of resistance” because Apple’s goal has traditionally been to “build products for everybody.”

- BGR

So if people inside Apple itself opposed such a high priced model, then I don't see any way to knock outsiders who do.

 

[chris975d]

You're an idiot. And kind of condescending and apparently not all that bright. An iPhone isn't a luxury item and that isn't my argument at all. You're missing the point.

I do believe the quote kdarling just posted by an Apple executive helps clarify my stance...

Former Apple SVP of technologies Bob Mansfield told The New Yorker that Ive faced “a lot of resistance” because Apple’s goal has traditionally been to “build products for everybody.”

Even a big wig from Apple states that their goal has typically been to "build products for everybody." That doesn't fit my definition of a luxury good.

 

[bunnicula]

Lol. At least we are getting somewhere. Thanks for keeping the discussion civil. I have no issues with anyone who can do that.

Again, "luxury", "expensive", "nice" are all subjective. And we (here on this forum, and the watch forums I'm on) are in a very good place overall in terms of "luxuries". We are debating whether a $1000 phone is luxury, or a $17K watch. While how many people in this world are wishing for the "luxury" of clean drinking water. Again...perspective dictates "luxury".

Quite true, quite true.

I think that, even on here, we sometimes lose sight of that "perspective" issue. For some of us, owning Swiss luxury timepieces or high-end German automobiles is a fairly typical thing amongst our immediate peers. For others, they'll be scraping up nickels and dimes to buy an Apple Sport Watch.

Which is cool because if they can use that extra cash to buy a watch instead of worrying about starving to death, they're ahead of the curve anyway, no?

 

[BvizioN]

They have made "stuff" fractionally better in form (not function) than some other brands at a price point fractionally higher in mass quantities.

Fractionally higher? Com on! Apple computers are almost double the price of the rest.

 

[bunnicula]

I do believe the quote kdarling just posted by an Apple executive helps clarify my stance...



Even a big wig from Apple states that their goal has typically been to "build products for everybody." That doesn't fit my definition of a luxury good.

This is a really good point.

They do want to build products for everybody. They just wanted to throw in a wildcard this time around (the Edition) to see if people with a bit more discretionary income were interested in wearing something that other people either cannot afford or refuse to spend that much to buy.

As I've said many times, the psychology of this model of watch for them is fascinating.

It also makes me wonder what will happen if/when they get this Apple Electric Car initiative off the ground. You know that not everyone who can afford an iPhone will be able to afford a fully electric vehicle made by a company that's obsessed with perfection.

Maybe it'll be an "everyman's" car one day (assuming they ever launch it and it is successful), but you know it cannot start out that way. The R&D for it alone is quite high.