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Mac Pros are not overpriced. The fact that you can build a comparable or even exactly the same system for less is completely irrelevant. When considering a price of an item, any item not just the Mac Pro the market demand is always the deciding factor.

The simple fact is that Mac Pros sale at the current price point ergo they are not overpriced as enough people are willing to buy them for Apple to keep manufacturing them. If at any point Mac Pros become overpriced and the demand falls below the point where Apple can not sale enough of them to produce desired profits you can be sure that Apple will lower the price, tweak the product line or discontinue it completely.
 
Just because it's arranged nicely in a nice case does not mean anything

It does to me, I will pay more for nicer looking hardware, personal preference. If "all the same parts" was the only factor, Alienware would have never made a successful company, no?

If you want a nice matching car comparison, compare a Qvale Mangusta or a Ford Mustang. The DO have the same engine and drive train, but different "case".
 
I'm supposed to be working right now, but since this opinion-and-lie-riddled thread has gone on too far, I need to take some ground here.

First, the Mac Pro is expensive. Nobody can deny that. But our opinion of "expensive" may vary from person to person. An average computer user (ACU for short) has no need for server-grade CPUs, ECC fully buffered memory, and the other workstation/server grade components of a Mac Pro. Take me, for example. I'm not an ACU, I sometimes am faced with high end video editing projects, video encoding, managing web servers, etc. Not the computers tasks of an ACU. For someone who does not see the benefit/need of a Mac Pro, the Mac Pro is indeed expensive. For these ACUs, a Mac Mini, MacBook/Pro, iMac would suffice. For gamers, iMacs should suffice and maybe the MacBook Pros w/ discrete graphics.

Now onto the hardware vs. dollar part. No doubt, if I went to Dell/HP and tried to configure a Mac Pro equivalent with the same exact hardware specs (everything, from ground up) I would not be able to find such a machine for "half the price of a Mac Pro". That is simply ridiculous. I could skimp out on some features like ECC memory, maybe the high end CPU, etc. and end up with something that costs about half a Mac Pro, but it's not the same machine, relatively speaking. I agree some people don't need it, but the design/OS of a Mac Pro [sometimes] makes up for the extra bit of cash you spend.

Not everybody needs ALL of the server/workstation grade hard on a Mac Pro. If I'm a gamer, I need a top notch CPU and GPU combo. Those are gaming rigs. The minority of PCs. Computers built especially for a highly specific purpose are always the minority. Like super computers for example. For moderate to heavy gaming intents, an iMac/MacBook Pro should suffice.

Some what I'm trying to say is, that at the end of the day, Apple is trying to simplify the concept of buying computers. Sure, there are outliers (gamers, servers, tinkerers etc.) but for the majority of computers users (ACU or not) the current lineup of Mini, iMac, and Mac Pro for desktop and MacBook, MacBook Pro for notebook will cater to that majority fairly well. Some people just want a low-power (power saving) desktop, they go Mini. Some want a complete desktop solution/family computer, they go iMac. Some want an entry level notebook, they go MacBook, and MacBook Pro for more processing power. My Dad always told me "keep it simple". Sure vendors can confuse customers with hardware choices, but when customers choose hardware by themselves, they aren't experienced, and may not choose a system that works well as a whole. Most customers are like this, but not all (again, the outliers).

*For those of you hoping for expandability but not a Mac Pro, you will be waiting for a long time. Expandability is moot because unless you tinker with it every day/year, you're wasting time. You're spending countless hours researching hardware, picking price (most of the time), and receiving little overall performance gain. You can't tinker with everything you own. Try tinkering with your house every year, adding the latest hardware. I guarantee your wife yelling at the top of her lungs that she wants to live in the house, no upgrade it year after year.

Conclusion: Some of us don't need/see the benefit of a Mac Pro. I do, but I don't need it. Mac Pro hardware was carefully selected to work well with each other and have saturated performance. Basically, computer working in harmony. Not some top notch CPU tyrannizing a cheap stick of ram or likewise. Just because you upgrade a sports car with the most expensive parts doesn't mean it will run the fastest. You need to tinker, but again, Apple does this for you. Hence the AIO desktops, minis, notebooks, etc. They do leave one option with some slight tinkering left for the user. The Mac Pro.
 
Wait wait so if I buy the exact same parts and my hands install them rather than someone overseas then it doesn't equal the same thing? You make good points but on this one I'd say you are reaching. :eek:

I've built plenty of machines have have lasted for 5-7 years for people and just because I bought parts and assembled them doesn't mean they were destined to explode because they aren't up to some imaginary standard.

Well, a) you aren't buying the exact same parts, and b) that 'imaginary standard' is meaningful in the business world.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't build a very nice machine from NewEgg parts (I used to do it all the time). I'm saying you can't provide the guarantees that one gets with a properly engineered enterprise level system.

Say what you will about the Mac Pros, but they are well engineered systems (2009 Quad excepted)
 
There've been some great posts in this thread so far, particularly about people willing to pay the price because they make money using the machine and "time is money". I also like the posts referencing the value people see in the machine, whatever the cost is, and that's where I fit in.

I was a PC user for around 20 years - went through the good and bad of DOS, all the way through Vista. I finally had enough of "dealing" with Windows and viruses and spyware and slowdowns...you get the idea.

I'm a power user, but I don't use my machine for making money (much as I might like to.) Photoshop and Lightroom are my major apps, along with Garageband to do some amateur recording. Other than these, I use apps like Firefox, Thunderbird, other various internet apps, etc.

So I was fed up with Vista, and taking a close look at the Macs...An iMac, while plenty powerful for what I need, doesn't have the expandability that I'm *USED TO* on the PC platform (I have several hard drives worth of accumulated stuff over the years, and I wasn't about to throw it all on external disks.)

Alongside the expandability problems, the iMac is an all in one machine - if the monitor goes out, I'm out a computer for however long it takes to fix. I'm not willing to accept that (as good as Mac hardware tends to be, things can still fail.)

So my ONLY option was an early 2008 (at the time) Mac Pro. My motto has always been "buy the best you can afford / you get what you pay for." Thankfully, I WAS able to afford one of these beasts (and with a few hundred bucks discount through my NAPP membership) - an octo core 2.8, which has now lasted me over 1.5 years so far, with NO signs of slowdowns, spyware, viruses, and VERY minimal upkeep (I *love* the UNIX underpinnings in OS X.)

Did I need an 8 core machine for what I use at home non-professionally? Of course not - it's total overkill. By now I have 14 gigs of RAM, since the price has been fairly low, and I bought it in stages. I can keep ALL my used apps open at all times and STILL have half my RAM free for other things.

Do I think I paid too much for this machine? OS X beats Vista in every way imaginable for my needs (by the way, I'm not a gamer AT ALL), I have no more headaches with slowdowns/viruses/spyware, I love the easy access to the hard drives and RAM slots, and this machine is nearly SILENT. Even my last PC with "Noise reduction" case, fans, and power supply was like an airplane taking off next to THIS computer.

This is THE single best computer I've ever honestly had the PLEASURE of owning and using, and in a few years I'll be able to put a hefty downpayment on a new Mac Pro from the proceeds of this one.

Is it overpriced to me? No way!
 
There've been some great posts in this thread so far, particularly about people willing to pay the price because they make money using the machine and "time is money". I also like the posts referencing the value people see in the machine, whatever the cost is, and that's where I fit in.
(trimmed)

Exactly, my entire post was user opinion. Some users think it's expensive/overpriced, and some don't. Hardware is cheap these days, and difference between high end hardware is very small, sometimes negligible. Move on towards the real innovation. Touchscreens, gestures, voice control, etc.
 
... (trim trim)... I love the easy access to the hard drives and RAM slots, and this machine is nearly SILENT. Even my last PC with "Noise reduction" case, fans, and power supply was like an airplane taking off next to THIS computer.

This is THE single best computer I've ever honestly had the PLEASURE of owning and using, and in a few years I'll be able to put a hefty downpayment on a new Mac Pro from the proceeds of this one.

Is it overpriced to me? No way!

I'd forgotten about the easy access! Sounds like we have the same machine, by the way. I recently upgraded my MP up to 12 Gigs of RAM. It took me longer to dig the thing out from behind the desk where its been sitting for a year, than to actually open it up and add the RAM, and close it up again. I had been used to systems where you had to partially disassemble the case to get at it, and then thread your way through cables occasionally. Its now safely tucked away again. Bliss.
 
Here's a great blog post that I came across today that reminded me of this debate and so I thought I'd share...

Most people simply don’t have good taste, or don’t care enough to be discerning.

Apple products are great because Steve Jobs and much of Apple’s upper staff has exceptionally good taste. Most people (with bad or no taste) don’t see what the big deal is, and they’ll buy the $300 Wal-Mart special.

But to the discerning minority, there is a big difference. It’s not like audiophile placebo — there are real differences between good computers and bad computers and good coffee and bad coffee.

The only difference is whether people notice or care, and I recognize that most don’t.

But I do. I try to be discerning in everything, because I love it. I love the research and acquisition of specialty things, I love finding new and better versions of the things I like, and I love discovering the immense depth of hobbies and goods that most people never see.

I shave with this stuff when everyone else uses the Mach 3. I buy wine from this guy when everyone else drinks Bud Lite. I use these fancy headphones when everyone else buys Sony. I drink loose tea when everyone else is fine with Lipton dustbags. I carry around 5 pounds of camera gear every day because I won’t settle for bad photos. And I got this ridiculous monster [Mac Pro] because no laptop would satisfy me.

Most people aren’t discerning, but that doesn’t mean that I’m not allowed to be.

Bravo!

http://www.marco.org/31318747
 
More than worth it

When i used to buy PC's I'd spec up the best I could afford and I did this on regular basis upgrading at least some parts every single year the whole computer within eighteen months.

However in the year or so I've had the Mac Pro I've not felt the need for this the system is still blazingly fast, and in my opinion that makes it cheaper in the long run this system will probably be with me for years to come :)
 
When i used to buy PC's I'd spec up the best I could afford and I did this on regular basis upgrading at least some parts every single year the whole computer within eighteen months.

However in the year or so I've had the Mac Pro I've not felt the need for this the system is still blazingly fast, and in my opinion that makes it cheaper in the long run this system will probably be with me for years to come :)

its funny how it works like that with Mac's, and a lot of PC only users have no idea how wonderful it is not having a registry :rolleyes:
 
Overpriced...

Overpriced is too polite a word.
It is ridiculously expensive, a graft.
Manufacturing costs in China or another similar country are very low - keep it in mind and do the calculations!
It means fat and fast profit for Apple. Simple as that...

Arguments about 'long term savings' blah blah? Well ,
in long term your machine will be obsolete and also in long term, as they say, we all will be dead...
 
Many, if not most, of posters on this thread seem to think that because they want a particular Mac at an affordable price - then Apple is "bad" for not providing that product at that price. ...

Yeah, I wish I could get a Ferrari for $25K, a Rolex for $300, a latte for 50-cents, my girlfriend a LV handbag for $20... and a Mac Pro for $900 ...

But our opinion of "expensive" may vary from person to person.
... Apple is trying to simplify the concept of buying computers.


What a load of horse manure. Computer parts are what they are. Branding them Apple, DELL, IBM, or HP doesn't change a thing except the name on the case. Apple marketing has REALLY done a number on your heads. If I had such a talent I could market and sell air and retire a rich man! Of course I would need a bunch of suckers to fall for it. NP, look no further than a few of the folks in this very thread.

Hey, guys, wanna buy some air? It's not just any air tho it's "Apple" air! It's special. It's ultra server grade air. Oh yeah, it's not the same as that normal stuff. :D It's instant shipping too. Right after your check clears it'll be right in front of your face. Just breath in. See, we have simplified the concept of buying air - so for sure this air is worth more! Yup, yup, you shop differently with our air so it's worth more. Of course "shopping differently" in Apple Air's case means higher prices and less selection but we can spin that to look like a plus! Why not? We already have them paying for air after all...

I'm not so arrogant as to actually go through with this tho so even before the IPO, I'm shutting it down. :D Land in a particular area has a set estimated price. If the seller is asking more than that it's deemed "over-priced" - end of story. Computer parts have a set market price: SRP, and a discount price: SRP -alpha. Labor and manufacturing also are known variables. If the seller is asking more than these it's deemed "over-priced" - end of story.

With the Mac Pro in 2009 you get less and pay more than just about anyone else is asking. The Mac Pro is over-priced. End of story.

It's human to try and justify why you fell for a con or allowed yourself to be duped - I can understand that - no one wants to be a sucker. But I don't think you need to shove those false justifications down other people's throats.

No, the Mac Pro's in 2009 are over-priced and we can be OK with just knowing that - we don't have to lie to ourselves too. If someone decides to pay that much for one I doubt anyone here will ridicule you for it - At least I've never seen it happen so far. It's your business. It's your decision. But let's be honest so people are not unwittingly coned or duped into thinking they're getting something special or "better" worth what's being asked. Apple has a set price on their operating system. That and the case is all that's different so let the buyer be informed and decide from there - with a full understanding.



Just because you upgrade a sports car with the most expensive [implied: best/fastest] parts doesn't mean it will run the fastest.

My buddies at the track would laugh you right out of your cover-alls for saying such a silly thing. Of course it does exactly mean just that. It's the car's potential paired with the driver's ability. And just like with computers, the car's potential is based primarily on the parts used.
 
Tess you are a serious crack-up..so satirical, yet i can still take you seriously.. nice job :p

i would definitely buy your plain, under-performing, over-priced air. :D
 
Most people simply don’t have good taste, or don’t care enough to be discerning about air.

Apple Air products are great because I and much of my upper staff have exceptionally good taste in air.

You really can't go wrong!

:D
 
You misunderstood me. I'm talking about the middle "hole" between iMac & Mac Pro. The one that is filled by boxes built with parts in the Hackintosh community.

Unfortunately, what a lot of posters don't fully appreciate is that there is a huge difference between there being a "technology hole" and a "marketplace hole".

Thus, we can all agree that there's a substantial 'gap' from a hardware/technology perspective between an iMac and a Mac Pro...but the simple fact that it exists does not mean that if Apple were to build a product to "plug that gap" that they would automatically be a financial success in business.


Yeah, I wish I could get a Ferrari for $25K, a Rolex for $300, a latte for 50-cents, my girlfriend a LV handbag for $20... and a Mac Pro for $900 because that's what it costs to buy a car, watch, coffee, handbag or desktop from elsewhere. LOL.

Afterall, that latte only costs me that 50 cents to DIY it from home...particularly when I ignore my labor costs, tool costs, dishes costs, dishwasher costs, cost for a square foot of countertop, etc...


What a load of horse manure. Computer parts are what they are.

Agreed 100% ... if and only if they're a commodity item.

From a manufacturing standpoint, as soon as the item becomes a non-standard (non-commodity) part, you break the 'Economy of Scale' rule.


The challenge is to demonstrate where one can go purchase the Mac Pro motherboard as a commodity from someone other than Apple. Specifically, at that comparatively low price that one finds on NewEgg for "commodity" grade motherboards.


Computer parts have a set market price: SRP, and a discount price: SRP -alpha. Labor and manufacturing also are known variables. If the seller is asking more than these it's deemed "over-priced" - end of story.

That's still when only addressing "commodity" parts.

What's missing is the cost to develop & set up a manufacturing line for a non-commodity item...and then across how many units of production you have to amortize your fixed costs in order to break even.


What's missing from this entire discussion are a couple of big Elephants. As a starting point:
  • What Apple's NRE development costs are for the Mac Pro
  • how many Mac Pros Apple sold in 2008
  • how many they expect to sell in 2009


We need to remember that cost = (variable costs) + (fixed costs)/(units)

...and that the number of units sold is a projection of future performance, which frequently incurs risk.


While we would all like to believe that Apple sells enough volume to amortize their development costs, the grim reality for desktops is that they're now less than 30% of the ~10M/year sales volume of Macs.

As such, threre's five (5) major desktop product variations (the mini, 20" iMac, 24" iMac, Quad Mac Pro, & Octo Mac Pro) that sum to this (10M*30%) = 3M units/year. Assuming that they all sold equally well ... which we know can't be true ... then each of these 5 desktop permutations sells 600,000 units/year.

As per cultofmac, it can be suggested that Apple's gross on desktops was roughly $4B/year ... which at 3M units was an average unit sales price of $4B/3M = $1,333. With the Mac Pro averaging to at least $3000 (before options), this infers a sales ratio of roughly three (3) mini's sold for each Mac Pro. Since IIRC the iMac is the most popular desktop model, this infers at least 6-7 "non-Mac Pro" desktops gets sold for each Mac Pro, so its sales volume was (in 2008) was probably less than 375K units/year...probably IMO 300K at best. Now with the economy's contraction, the 2009 guidance would have been revised and then all of the fixed/variable manufacturing cost factors (and the rest of the product development & lifecycle support) recalculated to see the consequences. Assuming a 50% cut, we could be looking at only 150,000 Mac Pro units projected by Apple to be sold in 2009...with all of the consequences of the financial implications of pricing to recover the fixed costs of development & support of all of their unique "non-commodity" items that they can't simply buy off the shelf from Bubba's Computer Parts Bin.



-hh
 
What a load of horse manure.
... (trim trim - though I like the Apple Air stuff)...
It's human to try and justify why you fell for a con or allowed yourself to be duped - I can understand that - no one wants to be a sucker. But I don't think you need to shove those false justifications down other people's throats.

I didn't fall for a con, I made a rational decision. Took me awhile too, since they are expensive. And.... I am not trying to " ... shove those false justifications down other people's throats." Just the opposite, I am having my throat shoved down by people who accuse me of being a mindless lemming, soft-headed con job target, tech fashion slave, etc.
Those of us defending the Mac Pro prices are not the throat targeting group. I will say this again.... if you can't justify buying a Mac Pro, then DON'T BUY ONE! There, problem solved. Easy. Apple doesn't sell a midrange desktop system, for business reasons. Its not personal - really.

(... trim some more ... )

My buddies at the track would laugh you right out of your cover-alls for saying such a silly thing. Of course it does exactly mean just that. It's the car's potential paired with the driver's ability. And just like with computers, the car's potential is based primarily on the parts used.[/QUOTE]

And that actually makes my point. I can buy all the same parts as you, but my car won't go as fast - 'cause I don't what I'm doing, and I'm not a driver. In your analogy, Apple is providing the driver and the mechanic who knows what parts go together to make a winning car. Its the team that will get the sponsorships. Any car I make and try to drive will not perform as well or as reliably.

Gotta go.... sunshine calls.....

Peace and all that...
 
It's human to try and justify why you fell for a con or allowed yourself to be duped - I can understand that - no one wants to be a sucker. But I don't think you need to shove those false justifications down other people's throats.

Honestly, I thought we had all agreed that the Mac Pro is expensive. What the discussion for the last couple of pages has been about is those who see value in higher priced goods vs. the cheapest alternatives.

I take it that you are now saying that anyone who buys anything that's more expensive than the absolute cheapest product in it's category is a fool?

Do you buy anything in life that's not the absolute cheapest product in it's category? Unless you are at the poverty line, I'm sure you do. If so, why?

If you can answer these questions, even to yourself, honestly, then you will have the answer as to why people pay more (even what you might consider ridiculous prices) for a Mac Pro.
 
The only difference is the ECC support. Single socket systems are usually going to use X58.
Some of the SP boards are listing support for W35xx processors, as the X58's do support it (ECC). It just needs the correct CPU Id to enable it. Others that don't list support, might actually be capable, but it's possible it was disabled in the firmware. For those interested, it would be worth an email to the board maker to find out. :)
 
Some of the SP boards are listing support for W35xx processors, as the X58's do support it (ECC). It just needs the correct CPU Id to enable it. Others that don't list support, might actually be capable, but it's possible it was disabled in the firmware. For those interested, it would be worth an email to the board maker to find out. :)
Surprisingly enough my $59 ASUS 760G board supports ECC as well.
 
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