Is the Mac Pro WAY overpriced?

[Tesselator]

How are you coming up with $700 LESS?

Because it's an HP.

With HP or DELL for that matter it's user upgradable. So you buy the base model and drop the procs in yourself. The base single proc HP comes with a $320 2.0 quad core. Sell that for $250, add the 2.66 x 2 and it's $700 less. Unlike Apple, this behavior is actually encouraged from HP. They want to make sure the customer is always able to get the currently best pricing.

This is not even considering the discount prices (which is another $250 off) on the base machine itself as Umbongo pointed out.

 

[Dr.Pants]

Maybe in 2010 they'll make up for it?

Fingers are crossed on this one. However, it might all depend on market pricing, again. Companies can pay mucho grande for their machines, but hardware enthusiasts may not be able to; furthermore, hardware enthusiasts may make up a smaller segment of the market then cooperate entities.

Still, I'm all hoping for 2010; if not, then maybe they will drop the price on their professional applications (not likely ).

 

[snberk103]

Too expensive for you is not the same as overpriced. Do you go into a store that sells fountain pens and berate them for selling "overpriced" goods. I mean, have you priced a high-end fountain pen? They can cost hundreds of $$..... for ink reservoir, a piece of split metal, and a case. Really! Yet, people who regularly use fountain pens pay the prices because it suits their needs.

I have a Mac Pro 2008 Octo. Yes, I know I could have built a cheaper system myself.... but I paid the price for a total system solution. It had the software I wanted, it had the support I needed. I didn't have to research all the parts. I didn't need to spend anytime building it, nor do I spend anytime maintaining it. I just use it. I turn it on, it works. I plug a display into it, it works. I'm not saying that Windows wouldn't work the same way... just that I have chosen to work with Macs - so for better or worse I work with the products that are made by Apple.

I do the same thing at the grocery store. If I need 750ml of milk, I don't cry because my choices are 500ml or 1 litre containers ... I just work with whats offered and get on with my day.

Get outside and get some sun..... life is too short to fret this stuff!

 

[poobah]

Look at any "server grade" MB and the differences will be glaringly obvious. Namely Number of SAS and SATA connection, Number of RAM slots, and etc. The top of the line 2009 Mac Pro is configured like a home PC with a medium to good grade WS MB. Nothing close to server is offered in the MP line.

I look at the server and workstation labels as measures of build quality and enterprise level components, not number of ports, etc. High quality components, not whatever was cheapest on the Chinese spot-market that day.

So let me get your statement right: If I buy all the parts for a server from NewEGG and put them together it won't actually be a server because they came from NewEGG?

Absolutely correct. You can call it a server if you like, but I wouldn't put my job on the line for it. Enterprise servers are designed as a system, with parts chosen to meet specific reliability, thermal, performance, (and yes, cost) targets. Picking out a bunch of nice components without thought to engineering them as a system is not acceptable for the enterprise.

Then they're stupid. I would be willing to bet they're taking a real beating on MPs in 2009 because they've priced themselves right out of a very large section of the market.

No argument here. I don't have insight to their business plan. Perhaps they decided to sell fewer units and take a bigger cut on each one? Dunno, seems foolish to me.

Yeah, and you better make sure that suit fits tight with all the misinformation you've added here. This is really laughable. Everything presented here is wrong or the opposite of being correct. Modern memory is MORE prone to ECC not less.

I think you've completely misunderstood my comments.

Summary: Memory bit errors do happen in modern systems (for whatever reason), and it is a larger problem now than 10 or more years ago (speeds, density, voltages, etc.). As a sysadmin, you want to maintain system reliability, uptime and accuracy. Ideally the system should recover from a bit error on its own. ECC memory gives us that exact capability. It is likely not an issue for your desktop, but for systems with long uptimes operating critical systems, it is a problem.

And finally in the almost impossible event of an actual ECC error you're machine will not produce an inaccurate result or crash as you incorrectly state. ECC doesn't just check for errors, it corrects them. Bad memory modules that cannot be corrected my cause such troubles but that a tiger of a different tale.

More misunderstanding of my comments? ECC detects and corrects bit errors (hence the name), which is why we want it in servers. Other common memory types do NOT detect OR correct, and silently fail until the system crashes or we get a bad result, which is undesirable.

Always fun to debate you!
And to get back on topic.... The 2009 Mac Pro is way overpriced

 

[RebootD]

2) A box of carefully chosen consumer grade parts from NewEgg does not make a workstation.

Sure it does when you use Newegg to price out a 'workstation' grade system to get an idea of what the cost might be to buy and assemble these systems:

22X DVD-R - $24.99
Full Tower Alum CoolerMaster COSMOS 1000 - $168.99
Supermicro MBD-X8SAX-O X58 Server Board - $259.99
XEON W3520 2.66GHz Quad - $309.99
3GB DDR3 1333 ECC - $62.99
640GB WD SATAII - $67.99
9500GT 512MB (basically a GT120) - $62.99
700W EPS12V PS - $119.99
Wired Keyboard/Mouse - $84.98
SYBA PCI 1394b Card - $36.99
USB Bluetooth 2 micro - $14.99
Vista Ultimate 64bit (have to include some cost for this) $189.99

Total = $1,404.87 , Mac Pro $2,499

Also note I didn't use the cheapest parts I could find just to prove a point. With this as an example you can clearly see the cost of parts vs what Apple in currently charging for their quad. Very nice profit margin indeed! (plus Apple gets all of their parts cheaper that we do)

oh yes, almost forgot...
6) Apple needs to sell a consumer level desktop machine.

Well this I agree with!

 

[RebootD]

So let me get your statement right: If I buy all the parts for a server from NewEGG and put them together it won't actually be a server because they came from NewEGG?

Absolutely correct. You can call it a server if you like, but I wouldn't put my job on the line for it. Enterprise servers are designed as a system, with parts chosen to meet specific reliability, thermal, performance, (and yes, cost) targets. Picking out a bunch of nice components without thought to engineering them as a system is not acceptable for the enterprise.

Wait wait so if I buy the exact same parts and my hands install them rather than someone overseas then it doesn't equal the same thing? You make good points but on this one I'd say you are reaching.

I've built plenty of machines have have lasted for 5-7 years for people and just because I bought parts and assembled them doesn't mean they were destined to explode because they aren't up to some imaginary standard.

 

[sgunes]

The sales and market share numbers from Q1 2009 show that Apple lost momentum and fell behind (just google yourself for the references).
They got the message that the economy is not the same it was 1-2 years ago and improved the MacBooks recently while also decreasing the prices.
Now, all I am waiting for is for them to step up the CPUs and keep the prices the same and they would sell thousands more of the MacPros to people like me who are on the fence. For the current prices they should at least throw in a black turtle-neck sweater and the Kool-Aid!
Of course an out-of cycle update with BD, USB 3, SATA 3 would also be welcome.

I will wait until September. If there is any price/value adjustment I will go with MacPro, if there are no changes I see a kick-ass Hackintosh in my future.

 

[Eidorian]

You messed up a part; the Mac Pro uses a Xeon X5550 which is around $960 for Apple, so add $600 to your total raises the amount to about $2000

Why would you use a dual socket part on the single socket board?

The quad uses a single socket Xeon which is a effectively a consumer LGA 1366 with ECC enabled. You don't have the second QPI link.

 

[alphaod]

Sure it does when you use Newegg to price out a 'workstation' grade system to get an idea of what the cost might be to buy and assemble these systems:

22X DVD-R - $24.99
Full Tower Alum CoolerMaster COSMOS 1000 - $168.99
Supermicro MBD-X8SAX-O X58 Server Board - $259.99
XEON W3520 2.66GHz Quad - $309.99
3GB DDR3 1333 ECC - $62.99
640GB WD SATAII - $67.99
9500GT 512MB (basically a GT120) - $62.99
700W EPS12V PS - $119.99
Wired Keyboard/Mouse - $84.98
SYBA PCI 1394b Card - $36.99
USB Bluetooth 2 micro - $14.99
Vista Ultimate 64bit (have to include some cost for this) $189.99

Total = $1,404.87 , Mac Pro $2,499

Also note I didn't use the cheapest parts I could find just to prove a point. With this as an example you can clearly see the cost of parts vs what Apple in currently charging for their quad. Very nice profit margin indeed! (plus Apple gets all of their parts cheaper that we do)


Well this I agree with!

You messed up a part; the Mac Pro uses a Xeon X5550 which is around $960 for Apple, so add $600 to your total raises the amount to about $2000

And that motherboard is for i7 not Xeon—and you chose quite possibly the crapiest of all possible motherboards. Another $200 on the price tag should do.

That Firewire controller you chose is also a POS, so really if you want a cheap quality workstation, the Mac Pro isn't that expensive.

 

[alphaod]

Why would you use a dual socket part on the single socket board?

The quad uses a single socket Xeon which is a effectively a consumer LGA 1366 with ECC enabled. You don't have the second QPI link.

Except the X5550 is single processor compatible.

Source: Intel

 

[Eidorian]

You messed up a part; the Mac Pro uses a Xeon X5550 which is around $960 for Apple, so add $600 to your total raises the amount to about $2000

And that motherboard is for i7 not Xeon—and you chose quite possibly the crapiest of all possible motherboards. Another $200 on the price tag should do.

That Firewire controller you chose is also a POS, so really if you want a cheap quality workstation, the Mac Pro isn't that expensive.

I'd like you know how you came up with this one.

It doesn't matter what you're suppose to use or not, we're talking about whether or not Mac Pro's are expensive and it's more about choosing the closest parts oppose to technical compatibilities.

Which means you're disregarding the fact that the single socket Mac Pro uses a single socket processor which is much cheaper.

Except the X5550 is single processor compatible.

Why would you buy a processor that's more expensive that what Apple uses?

 

[DiamondMac]

Eh, I think it is a bit over-priced but I paid for it (well, the last version) and enjoyed it.

In the end, it was worth the money. As long as I get good use out of it, I am happy

 

[Tesselator]

RebootD has it right.

Apple uses the 3500 series in the 2009 quad systems.
The 3500 series is socket compatible with the Corei7 chips in many/most 3rd party motherboards.
I've also heard that the 3500 series is cheaper than the i7 too tho I haven't priced them myself.
If true this means Apple is way overpriced - again.

Most other manufactures use the 5500 series for both single and dual processor configurations for workstation machines. The MBs are usually dual socket allowing the user to upgrade. Apple does not and that's a HUGE disadvantage!



.

 

[RebootD]

You messed up a part; the Mac Pro uses a Xeon X5550 which is around $960 for Apple, so add $600 to your total raises the amount to about $2000

And that motherboard is for i7 not Xeon—and you chose quite possibly the crapiest of all possible motherboards. Another $200 on the price tag should do.

That Firewire controller you chose is also a POS, so really if you want a cheap quality workstation, the Mac Pro isn't that expensive.

Show me where you found Apple stuck an overly expensive dual-socket capable board (with only 4 ram slots?) into my Quad and I will retrofit my example but since I'm guessing you can't I will leave it be.

As far as your personal opinion on what is a "POS part" that is just that; your opinion and has no impact on what I quoted. I was merely trying to show 'cost' of 'comparable parts'.

Plus I BOUGHT one of these so obviously I wanted it but the discussion is if we feel we paid too much and that answer is an obvious yes. (which is my opinion).

 

[Eidorian]

RebootD has it right.

Apple uses the 3500 series in the 2009 quad systems.
The 3500 series is socket compatible with the Corei7 chips in many/most 3rd party motherboards.
I've also heard that the 3500 series is cheaper than the i7 too tho I haven't priced them myself.
If true this means Apple is way overpriced - again.

There are many more options to pick from as well from Xeon (Gainestown) over a Bloomfield. You have a lot of clock speeds, cache, and QPI options.

The situation was the same with the LGA 775 Xeon machines. You might be able to find a Xeon processor for less than its equivalent Core 2.

Most other manufactures use the 5500 series for both single and dual processor configurations for workstation machines. The MBs are usually dual socket allowing the user to upgrade. Apple does not and that's a HUGE disadvantage!

Who sells a DP variant on a single socket system? It's a waste.

 

[iMacmatician]

Probably, if they have 12 cores they can raise the price for the top end and lower the octad and quad.

Fixed.

(Reminds me of the 2007 8-core Mac Pro... but who knows... the Gainestown to Gulftown change is a shrink in addition to a core count increase, and Gainestown to Sandy Bridge would be longer than Woodcrest to Harpertown.)

 

[lemonade-maker]

You messed up a part; the Mac Pro uses a Xeon X5550 which is around $960 for Apple, so add $600 to your total raises the amount to about $2000

And that motherboard is for i7 not Xeon—and you chose quite possibly the crapiest of all possible motherboards. Another $200 on the price tag should do.

That Firewire controller you chose is also a POS, so really if you want a cheap quality workstation, the Mac Pro isn't that expensive.

I can attest, that is one fine example of a POS mainboard and it is a perfect match for the ieee 1394.

Just now placed an order for same the spec as my macpro - Dell PowerEdge T710 - $5,294 for use as vmware server. Almost exact same price, no OS. I will run CentOS on it. Its ugly as hell but I can put 8 drives in it. Wish I coulda done that with an xserve.

 

[VirtualRain]

Too expensive for you is not the same as overpriced. Do you go into a store that sells fountain pens and berate them for selling "overpriced" goods. I mean, have you priced a high-end fountain pen? They can cost hundreds of $$..... for ink reservoir, a piece of split metal, and a case. Really! Yet, people who regularly use fountain pens pay the prices because it suits their needs.

Get outside and get some sun..... life is too short to fret this stuff!

QFT... some people around here just don't get it. They think every item whether it's a computer, a fountain pen, or a car, should only cost as much as the cheapest competitor.

See you outside in the sun!

 

[Dr.Pants]

Who sells a DP variant on a single socket system? It's a waste.

Most likely; I would note that the 5500 series usually has higher QPI rating then the 3500. This may be important for tasks which use high memory volume.

But I agree - its a little cheesy.

 

[Umbongo]

Most likely; I would note that the 5500 series usually has higher QPI rating then the 3500. This may be important for tasks which use high memory volume.

But I agree - its a little cheesy.

The W3500 processors are unlocked, so the QPI can be set to 6.4 GT/s if the board supports it.

 

[Dr.Pants]

The W3500 processors are unlocked, so the QPI can be set to 6.4 GT/s if the board supports it.

Oops. Forgot about that. However, on the MacPro, there is little one can do to make use of that feature AFAIK.

 

[TennisandMusic]

QFT... some people around here just don't get it. They think every item whether it's a computer, a fountain pen, or a car, should only cost as much as the cheapest competitor.

See you outside in the sun!

I think a lot of people here really don't get it, but it's not the ones saying Apple is overpriced.

You have TWO choices when it comes to Apple. A laptop, or a workstation. That's it. That's all the home user or professional can use OSX on. So you either pay a lot for an underpowered machine, unless all you need to do is browse the web and check email, OR you pay nearly a 100% premium on a workstation. That is obscene.

Apple does not offer better parts. At all. Period. Just because it's arranged nicely in a nice case does not mean anything, and if you know anything about parts whatsoever you know Apple is not offering better parts than what you can buy from Newegg. All of these silly car analogies people offer are completely invalid as a Mac Pro just ISN'T a "better car."

The bottom line is that I wish Apple would just be reasonable. Unfortunately I need software on OSX for the work I do. I do really like the OS, for sure. However buying any machine from them is just completely painful. Everything they offer, while nice in their own way, amounts to nothing less than a complete screw job to the customer, and it says a lot about what Apple thinks of their user base. That coupled with the fact their "pro apps" seem to have been largely abandoned, and Apple is a company that has become extremely base consumer oriented while raising prices and dropping the quality of their machines. Again, I don't mind a premium of some sort, but double the cost is practically a crime in my book.

 

[snberk103]

I think a lot of people here really don't get it, but it's not the ones saying Apple is overpriced.

You have TWO choices when it comes to Apple. A laptop, or a workstation. That's it. That's all the home user or professional can use OSX on. So you either pay a lot for an underpowered machine, unless all you need to do is browse the web and check email, OR you pay nearly a 100% premium on a workstation. That is obscene.

Apple does not offer better parts. At all. Period. Just because it's arranged nicely in a nice case does not mean anything, and if you know anything about parts whatsoever you know Apple is not offering better parts than what you can buy from Newegg. All of these silly car analogies people offer are completely invalid as a Mac Pro just ISN'T a "better car."

The bottom line is that I wish Apple would just be reasonable. Unfortunately I need software on OSX for the work I do. I do really like the OS, for sure. However buying any machine from them is just completely painful. Everything they offer, while nice in their own way, amounts to nothing less than a complete screw job to the customer, and it says a lot about what Apple thinks of their user base. That coupled with the fact their "pro apps" seem to have been largely abandoned, and Apple is a company that has become extremely base consumer oriented while raising prices and dropping the quality of their machines. Again, I don't mind a premium of some sort, but double the cost is practically a crime in my book.

I still don't get why Apple should be treated differently than any other company. Many, if not most, of posters on this thread seem to think that because they want a particular Mac at an affordable price - then Apple is "bad" for not providing that product at that price. I wish I could buy a 100 sq meter (~1000 sq feet if I've done my math right) house on the waterfront in my community for less than $500,000. I happen to know what costs to build a house. It doesn't have to be $500,000 for that size. Its not like they are using "better" lumber, or cement or anything. Its just the way market works. I don't feel "ripped" off.

Do you complain about the price of cameras? The digital sensors are all made by just a few companies, which all the different camera makers buy and repackage into a light-tight box with a lense that likely came from one of only a few lense factories. Its possible to get two different brand-name cameras, that have the same sensor and lense combination, and yet pay much more for one as the other. The difference is often brand-recognition, ergonomics, and software. The same thing that makes Macs different.

If Apple doesn't sell the solution you need, don't buy it. Thats the beauty of the free market.

Gad, I wish I wasn't working today..... bright, sunny and warm.... and I'm listening to .... well, I'll be polite and wish you all good humour, good vibes, and good karma.

 

[VirtualRain]

Yeah, I wish I could get a Ferrari for $25K, a Rolex for $300, a latte for 50-cents, my girlfriend a LV handbag for $20... and a Mac Pro for $900 because that's what it costs to buy a car, watch, coffee, handbag or desktop from elsewhere. LOL.

I don't think anyone's disputing that a Mac Pro is expensive. There's no doubt about that. It is absolutely higher priced than alternatives. Some see the value in it and buy, some don't, just like with many other consumer purchases.

 

[alent1234]

I think a lot of people here really don't get it, but it's not the ones saying Apple is overpriced.

You have TWO choices when it comes to Apple. A laptop, or a workstation. That's it. That's all the home user or professional can use OSX on. So you either pay a lot for an underpowered machine, unless all you need to do is browse the web and check email, OR you pay nearly a 100% premium on a workstation. That is obscene.

Apple does not offer better parts. At all. Period. Just because it's arranged nicely in a nice case does not mean anything, and if you know anything about parts whatsoever you know Apple is not offering better parts than what you can buy from Newegg. All of these silly car analogies people offer are completely invalid as a Mac Pro just ISN'T a "better car."

The bottom line is that I wish Apple would just be reasonable. Unfortunately I need software on OSX for the work I do. I do really like the OS, for sure. However buying any machine from them is just completely painful. Everything they offer, while nice in their own way, amounts to nothing less than a complete screw job to the customer, and it says a lot about what Apple thinks of their user base. That coupled with the fact their "pro apps" seem to have been largely abandoned, and Apple is a company that has become extremely base consumer oriented while raising prices and dropping the quality of their machines. Again, I don't mind a premium of some sort, but double the cost is practically a crime in my book.

if you compare mac pro to dell workstation specs, the Dell will cost twice as much. the mac pro's have almost the exact same parts as the new servers that are shipping now