Is the Mac Pro WAY overpriced?

[Tesselator]

... (trim trim - though I like the Apple Air stuff)...


I didn't fall for a con, I made a rational decision.

Exactly. As long as you knew the Mac Pro price, what you were getting for it, other similar systems in the industry and what they go for and what they come with... then you weren't conned or duped.

My thing is not that Apple is charging way more and offering way less. I'm OK with that. My deal is that people are saying that Apple machines are somehow magically "better" when they're not, and that this magic "betterness" is worth the price - which is horse manure.

As long as there's full disclosure then it's your call. And no one will put you down for it. But people shouldn't perpetuate non-sense. That's all.

 

[nanofrog]

That's the one.

I understand what you mean but people expect "SERVER QUALITY" components to always be expensive and rare to find.

Yeah, I understand your point. It depends on the details.

Even 8 layer DP boards aren't as high as I expected them to be. Though I've yet to see an enthusiast DP for Nehalem (equivalent to Intel's SkullTrail or the ASUS Z7S WS for Harpertown) yet, but I'm interested in looking at the slot configurations that might become available.

 

[Eidorian]

Yeah, I understand your point. It depends on the details.

Even 8 layer DP boards aren't as high as I expected them to be. Though I've yet to see an enthusiast DP for Nehalem (equivalent to Intel's SkullTrail or the ASUS Z7S WS for Harpertown) yet, but I'm interested in looking at the slot configurations that might become available.

I believe that Nehalem's Skulltrail is going to show up in 2010. Better late than never.

 

[Tesselator]

Honestly, I thought we had all agreed that the Mac Pro is expensive. What the discussion for the last couple of pages has been about is those who see value in higher priced goods vs. the cheapest alternatives.

Well, then compare apples to apples and black-bananas to black-bananas.

Buying a server or workstation board, populating it and building a system from the same parts Apple uses is nearly 1/2 what Apple is charging - in 2009. Buying the HP I listed is the same quality, WAY more features and options, and again almost 1/2 from what Apple is asking. That's not "expensive", that's overpriced.

People here are comparing $800 DT systems to Apple's MP pro and then saying it's cuz Apple has good taste and it's so much higher quality. Why bring black-bananas into it at all? That's pointless.

Apple is not inherently higher quality other than the OS and the case. And even that is debatable these days with the new HP and Hackintoshes being so easy now to setup.

I bring it back to a statement I made back on page 3. Counting. What and how many of what do you get in your hands for the price you pay? A black banana ("wallmart special") is a totally different product.

Do you buy anything in life that's not the absolute cheapest product in it's category? Unless you are at the poverty line, I'm sure you do. If so, why?

Not knowingly I don't - no. That would be stupidity! If there are a pair of Nike's at one shop for $200 and at another shop for $50 I of course buy the $50 ones. But a computer is a tool so let's use that example. If Black&Decker has a drill with the same sized motor, same sized chuck and comes with a full set of high carbon drills plus a chuck key for $100 why on earth would I pay $200 for a Makita of the same spec but with no drills and no chuck key? Nope, I'm not that dumb!

 

[VirtualRain]

Buying a server or workstation board, populating it and building a system from the same parts Apple uses is nearly 1/2 what Apple is charging - in 2009. Buying the HP I listed is the same quality, WAY more features and options, and again almost 1/2 from what Apple is asking. That's not "expensive", that's overpriced.

You need to talk to my GF who wants a $2000 Louis Vuitton handbag while I'm trying to convince her that even the $200 Guess handbag is overpriced!

Unfortunately, it's not a battle I'm going to win. I think this is not a battle you are going to win either.

 

[Tesselator]

You need to talk to my GF who wants a $2000 Louis Vuitton handbag while I'm trying to convince her that even the $200 Guess handbag is overpriced!

Unfortunately, it's not a battle I'm going to win. I think this is not a battle you are going to win either.

When you can wear a mac pro around your neck to parties and stuff then and only then can you compare it to a fashion item purchase.

 

[VirtualRain]

When you can wear a mac pro around your neck to parties and stuff then and only then can you compare it to a fashion item purchase.

Looking at my trendy local coffee shops for example, or local campus cafeteria's, I would argue that a Mac is a fashion item.

 

[nanofrog]

I believe that Nehalem's Skulltrail is going to show up in 2010. Better late than never.

Last I read, Intel had actually canceled it (SkullTrail II). Hopefully, it's been reconsidered, and ASUS will produce something as well. I liked the Z7S WS over the SkullTrail in that regard for the Harpertowns.

The fact you won't be forced to use FB-DIMM might make it more attractive as well.

When you can wear a mac pro around your neck to parties and stuff then and only then can you compare it to a fashion item purchase.

It makes sense for those who think of computers in terms of tools as their primary function, but otherwise, this seems like an uphill battle.

 

[Eidorian]

Looking at my trendy local coffee shops for example, or local campus cafeteria's, I would argue that a Mac is a fashion item.

I've had the same experience.

Last I read, Intel had actually canceled it (SkullTrail II). Hopefully, it's been reconsidered, and ASUS will produce something as well. I liked the Z7S WS over the SkullTrail in that regard for the Harpertowns.

The fact you won't be forced to use FB-DIMM might make it more attractive as well.

DDR3 ECC or even just plain DDR3 prices are going to drop unlike the price on FB-DIMMs.

I believe we've reached price parity with DDR2 DIMMs with vanilla DDR3 DIMMs.

 

[Tesselator]

It makes sense for those who think of computers in terms of tools as their primary function, but otherwise, this seems like an uphill battle.

Yeah... well, OK, everyone who bought their macs as a fashion statement please send me your processors, drives, MB and RAM. In return I will send you a printed image of the OS X desktop to paste on the front of your monitors.

I bet I don't get any takers.

 

[thepawn]

Tess, there is a level of "geek fashion" to case design - just look at the huge market for mod parts... like a computer actually needs a blue CFL light inside it to show you the chips...

 

[cube]

Apple makes fashionable hardware, not functional.

 

[Tesselator]

Hehehhe, you guys are pretty cute.

Thinking about it - I might even tend to agree if this were a thread about iMacs or Lap-tops. But those are also pretty functional. I mean, they ain't no slouches right?

I still wanna see VR try to wear a MP round his neck.

Heh! The ultimate in bling!

 

[VirtualRain]

I still wanna see VR try to wear a MP round his neck.

Heh! The ultimate in bling!

Flavor Flav... look out...

I'd like to see you photoshop it!

 

[-hh]

If there are a pair of Nike's at one shop for $200 and at another shop for $50 I of course buy the $50 ones.

This is the wrong application of analogies for the question asked: the commodity in your analogy is "sneaker"...no brand attached.

So its not the question of finding a $200 pair of Nike sneakers for less: it is the $200 Nike versus a $50 no-name (non-Nike) sneaker, and questioning if you buy the $200 Nike or the $50 No-Name.

But a computer is a tool so let's use that example. If Black&Decker has a drill with the same sized motor, same sized chuck and comes with a full set of high carbon drills plus a chuck key for $100 why on earth would I pay $200 for a Makita of the same spec but with no drills and no chuck key? Nope, I'm not that dumb!

FWIW, I can recall working with an assembly shop many (20+) years ago and had the bad luck of all of the professional-grade ("Makita" type) drills fail at pretty much the same time. Sent a runner over to Sears to buy replacements and burned through more than a dozen Sears Craftsman drills in 3-4 business days ...invoking "Craftsman" warranty at lunch each day... before new replacement professional grade tools were able to be had to restore normal day-to-day operations where drills didn't overheat & die.

A common problem with straw men is that they're adept at obscuring seemingly minor differences. For this drill example, for the typically light duty cycle of a consumer grade application, it doesn't make much of a difference if the drill uses bushings -or- bearings, but that seemingly minor difference alters the thermal load on the tool and can be the "make or break" failure point when its being heavily used on a shop floor.

In general, its safer to assume that there are differences between products than make a claim that relies on there being no differences whatsoever. Functionally, if there are "no differences", then it competes on price as a pure commodity where brand means nothing. "Commodity" is a fine business model for wheat, soybeans and industrial chemicals, but as the product becomes more sophisticated and featured, product differentiation becomes increasingly more likely.


-hh

 

[nanofrog]

Flavor Flav... look out...

I'd like to see you photoshop it!

Photoshop would work, as the real thing would end up requiring medical attention.

VR: Doc, my neck hurts...
Doc: You have a fracture in the C3 vertebrae. What happened?
VR: I wore a 50lb Mac Pro on a chain around my neck.
Doc: Yeah right. Now what really happend?
VR: Seriously.
Doc: Shakes head, and keels over laughing...

 

[Tesselator]

Flavor Flav... look out...

I'd like to see you photoshop it!

Find me a version around 1500 pixels wide and I will.



---------------
-hh

I appreciate the effort but I'm afraid it's a lost cause. Everyone here knows or should know what the computer market is like. It's a mixed situation with vendors trying very hard to monopolize and proprietarize. A few (AMD, MS, Apple, Intel, Nvidia, etc.) have gained such status and what variety exists keeps them each competitive and in line. Apple in 2009 is the bad boy who decided to step out of line and not play fair. Usually doing so costs - either rep points, market share, or other. In Apple's case we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[no.1 Apple Fan]

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to start a flame war. I'm just genuinely confused as to why Mac Pros cost so much.

Mac Pro:
Quad core 2.66ghz
3gb RAM
640gb HDD
GeForce GT 120
Cost: $2899 CDN

Dell XPS 435:
Quad core 2.66ghz
12gb RAM
1tb HDD
Radeon HD 4850
Cost: $1699 CDN

I honestly don't get it. What am I missing? Surely there's more to the price difference than a nicer case and the ability to (legally) run OSX...?

Dells are terrible. Period. The Mac Pro just works. It's hardware is better than the Dell's by miles. And another thing is, it's a Mac. It just works. Dell does not work. Another thing that the Dell lacks is quality. The Mac Pro is extremely high quality. I think that that is the answer. Quality.

 

[gugucom]

Roflmao

 

[Eidorian]

Dells are terrible. Period. The Mac Pro just works. It's hardware is better than the Dell's by miles. And another thing is, it's a Mac. It just works. Dell does not work. Another thing that the Dell lacks is quality. The Mac Pro is extremely high quality. I think that that is the answer. Quality.

Which components are of higher quality?

Hard Mode: Don't mention the case or the software.

 

[sbb155]

the price issue goes both ways... MS charges alot for office, when one can use openoffice. However, most of us who buy office PREFER it office over cheaper alternatives. Even though the cheaper alternatives can work.
I think Mac Pros are grossly overpriced. At current prices, I bet most users will be professionals. Maybe that is what they want, not the college fanboy gamers... who knows. One thing which is highly likely - the profit margin is going up, and the total sales of all desktops (I bet) is going down. But video professionals and certain publishers will always get the mac pro.
In my business, I use a windows for several corporate pursuits. It doesnt crash, it is stable. It does work. i have no problems with MS/dell for most corporate work. I dont buy into the mac over zealous dialog. However, for corporate creative pursuits (photo and video), I use my mac pro and my mbp. I have both. The MP will be replaced by a new one every 4 years as long as the video software remains superb (i.e. final cut). But once the software falters, the hardware cannot be justified in my line of work....
So, ultimately, the MP purchase is not an OS decision. I can get by with windows, and it a corporate enviroment, it doesnt crash. But I need excellent software that justifies the mac pro price.

Interestingly, for photoshop, there is a report on the web by Loyd, that shows that the single proc 2.93 is faster than the dual 2.93 for photoshop?! I know you are saying - "What the heck?". But it is true. Check it out...
SO, how can i justify asking corporate for dual proc MP, when the software doesn't justify it?

We need the software to show VALUE added to the octo core MP, and then the price doesnt matter to me as a professional. Until then, yes, it is way overpriced...
Show me the results and i'll show you the money. The software needs to take advantage of the hardware price premium.

 

[nanofrog]

Dells are terrible. Period. The Mac Pro just works. It's hardware is better than the Dell's by miles. And another thing is, it's a Mac. It just works. Dell does not work. Another thing that the Dell lacks is quality. The Mac Pro is extremely high quality. I think that that is the answer. Quality.

What?

I take it you've never used Dell's professional gear (aka enterprise), where they market workstation & server systems. These have proven to be proverbial tanks in my experience.

I haven't even had much in the way of problems on their consumer models either.

 

[gunraidan]

Wow. Seems like they were slowly getting on the right track than fell into a big ass pot hole.

EDIT - I mean I have no problem paying 15% extra for a Mac due to OS X and the aesthetics, but this **** is ridiculous.

 

[Tesselator]

What?

I take it you've never used Dell's professional gear (aka enterprise), where they market workstation & server systems. These have proven to be proverbial tanks in my experience.

I haven't even had much in the way of problems on their consumer models either.

An Ode To Apple Fan,
The last grasping vestiges of false foundations wither easily once illuminated from their dark places where insanity was forged to prevail. Only in vane do the truly beguiled cling to the imagined forms that once were. And the darkness screams its final soul-cries once illuminations enlighten.

 

[nanofrog]

An Ode To Apple Fan,
The last grasping vestiges of false foundations wither easily once illuminated from their dark places where insanity was forged to prevail. Only in vane do the truly beguiled cling to the imagined forms that once were. And the darkness screams its final soul-cries once illuminations enlighten.

One issue I do tend to have with Dell's consumer models (most vendors though, if not all), is the internal configuration/ease of installation of upgrades. But I think I've just gotten spoiled from my familiarity with the enterprise gear they churn out.